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zep73

Did Jesus Exist?

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Rlyeh said:

Besides what he already did?  Declares himself god/son of god, and opposes the practiced religions..  But slavery?  He's not even going to touch that.

I would think the Romans would be the main concern.

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Alchopwn
15 hours ago, Crikey said:

Perhaps our "reality" is a "dream" or "illusion"?

"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allen Poe

We could further speculate that  perhaps Jesus was a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation', able to bend "reality" to perform what looked like "miracles" to people?

He said WE could do it too, if we believed we could, for example perhaps prayer nudges reality in the direction we want it to go?

Or we can speculate that Jesus was never alive and in fact is a pastiche of a number of folkloric characters stitched together into a semi-coherent narrative by vested interests.

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Alchopwn
15 hours ago, Crikey said:

Some scientists might not agree with you..:D

Well, they're not thinking it through.  If 100% of the claim is vested in scripture, if you disprove the scripture, you disprove the claim.  Oh, and the scripture?  It's a pox raddled catastrophe.

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Alchopwn
17 hours ago, Will Due said:

Absolutely. But there are genuine spiritual experiences and then there are experiences that aren't.  You agree with me about that don't you?

LOL, no, not really.  "Genuine" is a very loaded word.  I think anyone can have a brain malfunction that seems to defy reality, but apparently you are not convinced, and want to label some these brain malfunctions genuine and others not genuine.  Not only that, but you want to put a further cultic spin on the definition.  How can I possibly agree with that?  Brain malfunctions happen with or without your cult buddy, and they don't need some pedophile in a dress to sanction them as genuine.  

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eight bits
7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You keep assuming  that people lied, constructed false histories etc. all within the lifetime of people living through the events.

Actually, I take Luke at his word, 1:1-4

Quote

Since many have undertaken to set in order a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us, even as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus; that you might know the certainty concerning the things in which you were instructed.

Taken at face value, Luke did some research using the sources available to him, including  sources with which he expresses some dissatisfaction, and constructed his own narrative as best he could. Note also that he makes no mention of having consulted any non-religious source, which may help to account for his getting the details of the thoroughly secular census wrong.

I am a great believer in the heuristic Do not attribute to malice what can be fully explained by incompetence. I have not attributed deceit to Luke; how interesting that you should pretend that I had. Perhaps you should talk that over with Habbie, he's the local expert in why people do interesting things.

As to when Luke wrote, he places himself in the third generation of Christians (after eyewitnesses and servants), so about 50-60 years after the supposed events, or maybe 85-95 CE. That squares well with the typical early end of the range of dating for Luke, 80-130. The later end is so much later because of a specific minority-opinion theory about Marcion, to which I do not subscribe.

http://earlychristianwritings.com/

So, Luke is writing a lifetime after Pilate left office (ie, approximately the typical life expectancy in his time and place). Only a very few adults who had lived through the departure of Pilate from Judea would still be living, and they would all be elderly. As you and I have discussed earlier in the thread, it could hardly have mattered even if contrary witnesses were younger and more numerous, since they would have no remedy and  no way to correct the record.

On a point arising,

Quote

Not sure that 8bits does, given his  arguments

There are many definitions of "the" historical Jesus hypothesis, and there ought to be, since different aspects of history are more important in some discussions than in others. My own personal default defintiion (for general purpose use, trumped if I'm in a discussion where another definition has been agreed upon): the personage whom Paul refers to as the Lord Jesus Christ in his seven accepted letters was a real man whom Paul believed to be a deceased contemporary.

Given the broad target cross-section which Paul leaves open by saying so little about this hypothetical personage (Jewish, apparently a minister of some kind to other Jews, died violently and was gibbeted, maybe a few other things that could be interpreted as earthly), I do find it entirely credible that some such person really existed. Moreover, given the impoverished state of the available evidence, I find it effectively impossible to rule out such a figure having lived.

I estimate that there was no time after Pilate left Judea (36 or early 37 CE) when anybody could have ruled out the existence of some such figure.,Almost certainly not after the sack of Jerusalem in 70 CE, by an amazing coincidence, about when the gospels begin to spring up like weeds. Conversely, nobody except an eyewitness (if any) could say of their own knowledge that any specific person actually did fill Paul's specs, and nobody, full stop, could know that exactly one person filled those specs.

(In a recent post, Sherapy gave a slightly different definition of a historical Jesus. Close enough to mine for government work.)

 

Edited by eight bits
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Habitat
5 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Perhaps you should talk that over with Habbie, he's the local expert in why people do interesting things.

Well, I predicted you'd be back to putting Mr W right, and here you are !

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Alchopwn
On 1/23/2020 at 11:52 PM, Habitat said:

Well, put it this way, sarcasm such as you employ, is strongly suggestive that you think you know, what you cannot possibly know, even in principle, the status of an unfalsifiable proposition, God. That is putting your preference for what might be the truth of the matter, ahead of the actual truth, which very clearly must be, that you do not know. You have fallen at the hurdle I spoke of, the need to acknowledge what you do not know. The guts of the JC teaching is that you can "know" the truth, but you must set aside your obviously failed method that has you smugly confident you "know" the truth already, which is simply prejudice.

Again.  All the claims of the god believers is based on scripture.  Without these scriptures they are simply madmen howling at the tumbleweeds.  When you disprove the claims of the scripture, you disprove the whole damn thing.  I have repeatedly disproven the scripture, ergo, the claim is null and void.  There is no need for ambivalence or agnosticism, for there is no god of the Bible that cannot be explained by other means.  There is  also no "test" unless you mean a test for gullibility, in which case you are the one who failed.  

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Habitat
38 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Again.  All the claims of the god believers is based on scripture.  Without these scriptures they are simply madmen howling at the tumbleweeds.  When you disprove the claims of the scripture, you disprove the whole damn thing.  I have repeatedly disproven the scripture, ergo, the claim is null and void.  There is no need for ambivalence or agnosticism, for there is no god of the Bible that cannot be explained by other means.  There is  also no "test" unless you mean a test for gullibility, in which case you are the one who failed.  

The highest, most complete state, for a human being, is the state of psychological maturity where it is possible to confirm the truth that was alluded to, by JC, and the many other historical custodians of the Perennial Philosophy, of participative and experiential immersion in God. That was what his mission was, but it is not something that gains popular acceptance, then or now, it is really the preserve of a small few, who are given by the accidents of fate, to be able to apprehend it. it is akin to the old saying, you cannot put an old head on young shoulders, except perhaps that you cannot put a God-ready head, on those distracted by the ephemera of the world.

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eight bits
Quote

Well, I predicted you'd be back to putting Mr W right, and here you are !

Um, Habbie? I know that flame baiting is your favorite sport, and your prescience is the envy of the internet world, but just before you prophesied, I told Mr W

23 hours ago, eight bits said:

If you want to discuss what "Luke" wrote, then sweet.

I kept my word.

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Um, Habbie? I know that flame baiting is your favorite sport, and your prescience is the envy of the internet world, but just before you prophesied, I told Mr W

 

So it wasn't  his biblical inaccuracy in general, just that particular Inaccuracy that would not be further addressed ? Very well, carry on !

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NoBrain

If he existed doesn't necessarily means he also did all that **** writen in Bible. This question can be divided in a infinite questions and answers.

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psyche101
9 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

I tend to find it hilarious when someone thinks something being possible automatically means it must be probable or likely as well. It doesn’t. 
 

cormac

May I draw on your knowledge to ask if it's likely that Nazareth actually existed during the alleged lifetime of Jesus.

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Rlyeh
6 hours ago, Habitat said:

I would think the Romans would be the main concern.

Jesus wouldn't want to upset the Romans.

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Sherapy
8 hours ago, Piney said:

Before he's back in his least favorite room. :yes:

Ya read that pops!!! 

Piney, thanks for the American God recommendation. It is excellent. On season 1 episode 6. Favorite’s so far is Zorya Vechernyaya played by Cloris Leachman and Mad Sweeney.  Actually all the actors are excellent. 

I loved GOT, so did Eightbits he read all the books too. 
 

I think Xeno would like this series too.

It would be fun to match up the gods with the posters, you would be Mr. Weds. hands down, lol 

Habit would be Czernobog

Edited by Sherapy

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Piney
6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I loved GOT, so did Eightbits he read all the books too. 

I read them all in prison.

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I think Xeno would like this series too.

I think Xeno recommended it to me. :lol:

 

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Sherapy
Just now, Piney said:

I read them all in prison.

I think Xeno recommended it to me. :lol:

 

Lol, yeah, it is his type of series. 
 

It would be fun to match up the gods with the posters, you would be Mr. Weds. hands down, lol 

Habit would be Czernobog

Xeno no question is Shadow Moon lol

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Piney
Just now, Sherapy said:

It would be fun to match up the gods with the posters, you would be Mr. Weds. hands down, lol 

He's my hero in the series. :yes:

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Sherapy
9 minutes ago, Piney said:

He's my hero in the series. :yes:

Lol, he is fabulous. Love the Jesus discussion S1 episode 3. 

Walker is low key lyesmith, ha ha ha ha 

I think Mad Sweeney goes to 3rd eye.

I gotta figure out Eighty, LG, Hammer, Will, Cormac etc.. 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Piney
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I think Mad Sweeney goes to 3rd eye.

The Chinese Taoist gods are actually "revered people" more like saints.

There are quite a few who act like Sofu. :lol:

 

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Sherapy
8 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Chinese Taoist gods are actually "revered people" more like saints.

There are quite a few who act like Sofu. :lol:

 

You are just a wealth of knowledge, talk about well read. 
 

You are a very unique and  interesting man Piney. :wub:

 

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Piney
Just now, Sherapy said:

You are just a wealth of knowledge, talk about well read. 

I never tried for a social life. Instead of partying I spent my loot on books, college course and expeditions. 

I was never paid for digs or cultural and geological explorations. It's all voluntary. They were my vacations. 

A member here Kenemet does the same thing. She's one of the real geniuses of this forum. But she teaches on a PhD level. 

We swap notes all the time because her Anthro background is extensive and mine is crap. 

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Crikey
8 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

New T...Still defends slavery.

Check your monitor settings mate, you must have missed this verse I posted earlier-

"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God" (1 Tim 1:9)

 

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Crikey
8 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

So you're accountable for what your ancestors did?  You don't possess common sense.

Check your monitor settings again mate, you must have missed my post where I said anybody who follows Jesus has got a free run to the pearlies no matter what their forebears did..:D

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Sherapy
11 minutes ago, Piney said:

I never tried for a social life. Instead of partying I spent my loot on books, college course and expeditions. 

I was never paid for digs or cultural and geological explorations. It's all voluntary. They were my vacations. 

A member here Kenemet does the same thing. She's one of the real geniuses of this forum. But she teaches on a PhD level. 

We swap notes all the time because her Anthro background is extensive and mine is crap. 

I come to UM for the posters, I enjoy reading an intelligent well versed articulate mind. 
 

For me, it is like appreciating a fine painting. I learn so much. 


I think we are fortunate to have so many talented thinkers in one area. I like precision, attention to detail that posters such as Eight bits, you, Cormac, LG, X, Hammer, 3rd and Psyche put into the subjects that you each are passionate about. 

Thank you for your contributions. 

 

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Crikey
8 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

Crikey said- Apart from the 27 separate books of the New T, there's also a truckload of historical accounts that never made it into the bible..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I notice you've listed a few that directly contradict the typical view of Jesus.

So what? They admit he existed, so that's a "yes" to the topic title: Did Jesus exist..:D

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