Metaphysics - Science and the Superphysical

[papageorge1]

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Your takeaway is as per all your posts. Short-sighted, credulous and avoiding the massive holes on the nonsense posts you subject others to.

Are you talking about the 40 year old California version of pretty lights easy to sell rehashed soccer mum Chakra or the ancient meditative practise to assist in focus?

Because so far you have only referred to the former. And you have not answered this when asked before.

 

All the above and more like Theosophical masters and etcetera. Are you trying even to say ancient tradition like the Vedic tradition don't hold the reality of the chakra energy system and it's all symbolic/fictional to assist in focus? Or what are you saying?

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

 

It must be embarrassing for you to have a skeptic teach you about the very nonsense you are peddling.

 

Sorry, but you've never taught me a thing about this subject. 

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

 

As a focus for meditation, Chakra has benefits to assist reaching that state of mind. The new age garbage you have been presenting is the product of lies and delusion.

You have no filters, you have yet to display rational thought, critical evaluation or reasoning.

As noted repeatedly, you are an enemy of reason. If you find something unlikely, then any opposing arguments are more likely to.be correct. It's just how you roll. You champion ridiculous stories blindly, perhaps just to annoy critical thinkers, it's a real possibility as I don't know how your mind works. All I do know a s your posting is misleading, full of bad advice for others and highly credulous.

Again the contention on your part that this is all lies and delusion and from the remarkably detailed descriptions I have seen, I have little doubt that these diverse sources are getting at something objective and real. 

[+joc]

19 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

All the above and more like Theosophical masters and etcetera. Are you trying even to say ancient tradition like the Vedic tradition don't hold the reality of the chakra energy system and it's all symbolic/fictional to assist in focus? Or what are you saying?

Sorry, but you've never taught me a thing about this subject. 

Again the contention on your part that this is all lies and delusion and from the remarkably detailed descriptions I have seen, I have little doubt that these diverse sources are getting at something objective and real. 

PapaBabyPapaMama,

We already know and have ancient wisdom regarding the body and how it works...i.e. Acupuncture...Kung Fu...etc.

All our mind is capable of doing is to work within the confines of physics. There is nothing really magical about acupuncture or Kung Fu.  To the point we are able to focus our minds on our body is the point we can manipulate our bodies via thought process...nothing Quantum or mysterious about it. Are you saying that there is?

Chakra is basically manipulating our bodies via thought process.

 

[papageorge1]

1 minute ago, joc said:

PapaBabyPapaMama,

 

...nothing Quantum or mysterious about it. Are you saying that there is?

 

Yes, I am saying that there is and in no uncertain terms, Jocco. I am saying there is something extra-dimensional and real to the chakra system. That can indeed be considered 'mysterious' to us with only three-dimensional senses and thinking models!

[+joc]

Just now, papageorge1 said:

Yes, I am saying that there is and in no uncertain terms, Jocco. I am saying there is something extra-dimensional and real to the chakra system. That can indeed be considered 'mysterious' to us with only three-dimensional senses and thinking models!

Are you then working on an equation to prove this?

[papageorge1]

Just now, joc said:

Are you then working on an equation to prove this?

Nope, that's over my head.

I am not doing hard science. I am judging what is most reasonable to believe about reality after all things are considered.

[+joc]

27 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Nope, that's over my head.

I am not doing hard science. I am judging what is most reasonable to believe about reality after all things are considered.

What is it then you are considering...other than anecdote?

Are you working off of Einsein's thereoms or what?

[papageorge1]

9 minutes ago, joc said:

What is it then you are considering...other than anecdote?

Are you working off of Einsein's thereoms or what?

I am considering the direct observations of countless individuals and masters of various wisdom traditions. 

[+joc]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

I am considering the direct observations of countless individuals and masters of various wisdom traditions. 

papa-san....direct observations...other than your own...are Anecdote.  Whether they be master of something or not.  

For instance:  Anyone who says...I saw this...I experienced that...okay...they probably did...but it is anecdote at best...second hand witnessing at best.  He said she said.

In order to fully agree to something someone says...for me anyway...requires a mathematical equation that works in every situation...and so we are left with things like String Theory and the like...all of which...are attempting to plug in the missing parts of Einstein's equations of relativity.  Maybe one day they will...then we will have something we can sink our teeth into and say ....well then... this equation fits the missing pieces and proves in every situation that X-theorem is correct.

If and when that happens...we can then go back to all your anecdotes and say...well see...there is actually a correlation between those anecdotes and the equation of  X-theorem, the theory of relativity and spacetime  i.e.  other dimensions.  

I'm not saying those aren't actually factors...but until someone finds a way to prove it...it really is nothing but anecdotes eluding something that we know nothing about.

We shall see what we shall see...or we won't.

Edited December 14, 2019 by joc

[papageorge1]

29 minutes ago, joc said:

papa-san....direct observations...other than your own...are Anecdote.  Whether they be master of something or not.  

For instance:  Anyone who says...I saw this...I experienced that...okay...they probably did...but it is anecdote at best...second hand witnessing at best.  He said she said.

In order to fully agree to something someone says...for me anyway...requires a mathematical equation that works in every situation...and so we are left with things like String Theory and the like...all of which...are attempting to plug in the missing parts of Einstein's equations of relativity.  Maybe one day they will...then we will have something we can sink our teeth into and say ....well then... this equation fits the missing pieces and proves in every situation that X-theorem is correct.

If and when that happens...we can then go back to all your anecdotes and say...well see...there is actually a correlation between those anecdotes and the equation of  X-theorem, the theory of relativity and spacetime  i.e.  other dimensions.  

I'm not saying those aren't actually factors...but until someone finds a way to prove it...it really is nothing but anecdotes eluding something that we know nothing about.

We shall see what we shall see...or we won't.

Joco-son, anecdotes considered for quantity, quality and consistency can affect my view of reality.  That consideration is just normal human reasoning.

Now physics may not work well with anecdotes, but my interests are in more things than physics and equations.

I like science but I am not a disciple of scientism that only is interested in what science at this time can determine.

[+joc]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Joco-son, anecdotes considered for quantity, quality and consistency can affect my view of reality.  That consideration is just normal human reasoning.

Now physics may not work well with anecdotes, but my interests are in more things than physics and equations.

I like science but I am not a disciple of scientism that only is interested in what science at this time can determine.

Honestly....anecdotes do make me think and consider other things...which, gives rise to my interest in the science and equations that point in the direction of proof of a particular anecdote.  It is in the proof that further studies may show that peeks my desire to know.

My interest is in physics and equations and the proof over different sequences and situations that they show to be true.  Einstein is not the end all of end all by any means...however; it is  in the consideration of previously proven theorems that true exploration and research and study of the very phenomena which you believe, without those proofs being present, which will give us proof that we can then assimilate into our own thought processes about reality.

Edited December 14, 2019 by joc

[psyche101]

On 12/13/2019 at 11:52 AM, papageorge1 said:

All the above and more like Theosophical masters and etcetera. Are you trying even to say ancient tradition like the Vedic tradition don't hold the reality of the chakra energy system and it's all symbolic/fictional to assist in focus? Or what are you saying?

I'm saying your westernised sellable versions of eastern tradition is a sham, greatly misrepresents the original practise, and yes, is a wild fictional reimagining of the traditional systems. In short, you have shown you do not understand the traditional practises and are only well versed in the westernised scam versions using the same terminology. 

Quote

Sorry, but you've never taught me a thing about this subject. 

Sure I have, you are just too full of yourself to admit it. I asked you what Chakras referred to, you embarrassingly posted the westernised easy to sell colourful version with a deep 40 year history, which is a rewrite of the original practise. You might not have the decency to admit to your blunder, but it's pretty obvious to anyone else reading the posts.

Quote

Again the contention on your part that this is all lies and delusion and from the remarkably detailed descriptions I have seen, I have little doubt that these diverse sources are getting at something objective and real. 

Yes, the rubbish information from the scam websites you call proof, the charlatans and sexual criminals you post as examples of insight amount to nothing more than an illustration of how far one will go to support a personal fantasy. The only thing real they are getting at is crime and a how to operate with a complete lack of ethics and morals. 

Chakras as I've said more than once are a meditative tool. A help to focus. The real benefits are clarity of thought, and even strengthening certain muscles in the head. It has real benefits sure, it is not a portal to the whacky and wild anti science proposals you make up or the charlatans you constantly support. They are not paranormal manifestation. That's a freaking joke 

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Joco-son, anecdotes considered for quantity, quality and consistency can affect my view of reality.  That consideration is just normal human reasoning.

If it's normal human reasoning, then why do do few come to that conclusion? Why do none of the best minds in the world have this opinion? Why would some anonymous individual on the internet hold answers hidden to the best minds in the planet?

Try applying reason and common sense to that. There's only one outcome and it does not support your posting.

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Now physics may not work well with anecdotes, but my interests are in more things than physics and equations.

Denying facts for fantasy

Do you even realise that is what you just posted? You don't care about science because you really like your personal idea. 

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I like science but I am not a disciple of scientism that only is interested in what science at this time can determine.

You do not like science, let's be honest. If you did, you would put as much effort into understanding it as you do studying whack jobs and sexual criminals who say what you want to hear. 

What can be determined by your imagination is not of interest to anyone but yourself and the minority of lost  like minded misguided souls who also like to play pretend they are high priests of the paranormal. The 37%.

37 Percent of People Completely Lost

[+joc]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

my interests are in more things than physics and equations

And yet...your emphasis of this thread was:

String Theory provides possiible bridge between Science and the Superphysical

String theory is actually an attempt to find the missing pieces of the equations of Einstein that don't work in every situation. They are yet to be proven.  Nonetheless they are the forerunner of Einsteins own theorems...which were a forerunner of Newton's Laws about Gravity.

So to say you have no interest in science and equations seems a bit disingenuous at least.  Otherwise you are spouting theorems of which you know absolutely nothing about.

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, joc said:

Honestly....anecdotes do make me think and consider other things...which, gives rise to my interest in the science and equations that point in the direction of proof of a particular anecdote.  It is in the proof that further studies may show that peeks my desire to know.

My interest is in physics and equations and the proof over different sequences and situations that they show to be true.  Einstein is not the end all of end all by any means...however; it is  in the consideration of previously proven theorems that true exploration and research and study of the very phenomena which you believe, without those proofs being present, which will give us proof that we can then assimilate into our own thought processes about reality.

Well, I don't know how many centuries you expect to live but in this 21st century my consideration of the paranormal and psychic insights shows me that science is missing a lot of important stuff. I will consider other wisdom traditions in the meantime.

[papageorge1]

52 minutes ago, joc said:

 

So to say you have no interest in science and equations seems a bit disingenuous at least.  

I never said I have no interest in science and equations. In fact I said: my interests are in more things than physics and equations

[psyche101]

9 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I don't know how many centuries you expect to live but in this 21st century my consideration of the paranormal and psychic insights shows me that science is missing a lot of important stuff. I will consider other wisdom traditions in the meantime.

What does 40 year old Californian Chakra tradition teach you?

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

I never said I have no interest in science and equations. In fact I said: my interests are in more things than physics and equations

You have shown yourself to be an enemy of reason. That you have no interest in science goes without saying.

[+joc]

On 12/5/2019 at 5:28 PM, papageorge1 said:

Thoughts? I know these things are all theoretical and not testable at this time. But as I've suspected for some time now, I believe these so-called paranormal Unexplained Mysteries do involve 'real' things we don't understand. I hold this to be the strongest and most reasonable theory out there.

You hold this to be the strongest and most reasonable theory out there.....why?   Because you have researched and studied and understand the ins and outs of the theory?  That can't be why because you are not even a physicist.  So ....hmmm...I dunno...let us contemplate what a   r  e  a  l   Physicist  thinks about it....

Scientific American
Physicist, mathematician and blogger Peter Woit:

 The problem with such things as string-theory multiverse theories is that "the multiverse did it" is not just untestable, but an excuse for failure. 

Experimental results from the Large Hadron Collider show no evidence of the extra dimensions or supersymmetry that string theorists had argued for as "predictions" of string theory.  The internal problems of the theory are even more serious after another decade of research.  These include the complexity, ugliness and lack of explanatory power of models designed to connect string theory with known phenomena, as well as the continuing failure to come up with a consistent formulation of the theory.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Papasito....consider that a consistent formulation  = equations that show a consistency from zero to infinity which String Theory has not been able to provide.  So...at this point...you are relying on an unworkable theory to support your own confirmation bias concerning a Multi-verse.  

Edited December 14, 2019 by joc

[+joc]

8 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I don't know how many centuries you expect to live but in this 21st century my consideration of the paranormal and psychic insights shows me that science is missing a lot of important stuff. I will consider other wisdom traditions in the meantime.

science is missing a lot of important stuff = Not being able to validate M theory with actual working equations which are consistent from Zero to Infinity.   You cannot, at the same time, with one hand, grab hold of the Life Raft of  M theory...and with the  other hand, grab hold of the Life Raft of well we don't know everything yet.

How about grabbing onto the Life Raft of what we actually know?  just a thought

[Duke Wellington]

8 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I don't know how many centuries you expect to live but in this 21st century my consideration of the paranormal and psychic insights shows me that science is missing a lot of important stuff. I will consider other wisdom traditions in the meantime.

Lets look at Bill Gates.

A super rich, super intelligent, programming entrepreneur that made it big time with his Microsoft Operating System. Then lets consider the notion that the universe sends him experiences which confirm back to him what he is or isn't.

So he finds that because he has money the universe sends him money. Because he gives money away the universe sends him money to give away. Because he has power and success the universe continues to send him power and success.

Now if we arent metaphysical/spiritual minded we would just argue nothing extraordinary is going on. But if we are we can experiment to see if there is indeed something odd occurring. I will refer to the effect as an Inverted Law of Attraction

We know if we wish we were rich we dont become rich. Lets alter our perceptions about that and say when we want to be rich the universe sends us experiences that continue to make us want to be rich. Therefore to get rich it would make more sense to wish we were poor.

I have gotten grief for my rather eccentric views before but you rise up high in life by:

Hating poor people: The universe continues to sends experiences to you that make you hate poor people.

Wishing you could just laze about in bed all day: The universe will keep you busy so you continue to wish you could just laze about in bed all day.

Dominate people: The universe will continue to send you experiences where you get to dominate people.

The result is the universe will make you rich, busy, and put you in positions of power. This is easily testable by doing it for a month and taking note of the changes in what you experience starting to occur.

Edited December 14, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Lets look at Bill Gates.

A super rich, super intelligent, programming entrepreneur that made it big time with his Microsoft Operating System. Then lets consider the notion that the universe sends him experiences which confirm back to him what he is or isn't.

So he finds that because he has money the universe sends him money. Because he gives money away the universe sends him money to give away. Because he has power and success the universe continues to send him power and success.

Now if we arent metaphysical/spiritual minded we would just argue nothing extraordinary is going on. But if we are we can experiment to see if there is indeed something odd occurring. I will refer to the effect as an Inverted Law of Attraction

We know if we wish we were rich we dont become rich. Lets alter our perceptions about that and say when we want to be rich the universe sends us experiences that continue to make us want to be rich. Therefore to get rich it would make more sense to wish we were poor.

I have gotten grief for my rather eccentric views before but you rise up high in life by:

Hating poor people: The universe continues to sends experiences to you that make you hate poor people.

Wishing you could just laze about in bed all day: The universe will keep you busy so you continue to wish you could just laze about in bed all day.

Dominate people: The universe will continue to send you experiences where you get to dominate people.

The result is the universe will make you rich, busy, and put you in positions of power. This is easily testable by doing it for a month and taking note of the changes in what you experience starting to occur.

It's the reticular activating system that does all that, not the universe. It's basically just confirmation bias. The universe doesn't do anything. If you really wanted to test this, think about finding a quarter, visualize it, do this every morning and every time you go out. You'll notice a quarter here, a penny there. It's not the universe making it happen, it's your focus. 

I shared this in another thread. Well worth the read.

https://selfdefinition.org/science/Robert-Anton-Wilson-Prometheus-Rising.pdf

[Duke Wellington]

Just now, XenoFish said:

It's the reticular activating system that does all that, not the universe. It's basically just confirmation bias. The universe doesn't do anything. If you really wanted to test this, think about finding a quarter, visualize it, do this every morning and every time you go out. You'll notice a quarter here, a penny there. It's not the universe making it happen, it's your focus. 

I shared this in another thread. Well worth the read.

https://selfdefinition.org/science/Robert-Anton-Wilson-Prometheus-Rising.pdf

It is easy to test by putting it into practice.

Things start to change pretty fast in a way which isn't just the person noticing what they have been thinking about.

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, joc said:

science is missing a lot of important stuff = Not being able to validate M theory with actual working equations which are consistent from Zero to Infinity.   You cannot, at the same time, with one hand, grab hold of the Life Raft of  M theory...and with the  other hand, grab hold of the Life Raft of well we don't know everything yet.

How about grabbing onto the Life Raft of what we actually know?  just a thought

Again and again you are promoting scientism. Maybe that’s fine for you but I am interested in wisdom and wisdom traditions that are not physics and equations.

Vedic, Theosophical, etc wisdom traditions use quite different approaches than physics and equations.

My main point in my OP is suggesting that extra-dimensions seem to help us make some more sense of the paranormal and psychic. People always ask so where are these things? I am just intending to show where a bridge may be started between science and the paranormal/psychic/spiritual.

I am not offering mathematical equations in the year 2019.

 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

Maybe that’s fine for you but I am interested in wisdom and wisdom traditions that are not physics and equations.

Then why bother to bring up string theory at all? Seems kinda backwards. If you want to adhere to those philosophical/metaphysical systems, then stick to them. Why try to use science to confirm your beliefs. At most it would be psychology that might do that. You have your model of reality. It's like people using quantum this or that to validate something, given that there is no evidence that they are right.

[papageorge1]

22 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Then why bother to bring up string theory at all? Seems kinda backwards. If you want to adhere to those philosophical/metaphysical systems, then stick to them. Why try to use science to confirm your beliefs. At most it would be psychology that might do that. You have your model of reality. It's like people using quantum this or that to validate something, given that there is no evidence that they are right.

Didn’t I address that in my third paragraph that you clipped out?

I am interested in science AND spiritual traditions.