Turkey and Libya agree to split Mediterranean

[+and-then]

https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/2021156/greece-registers-disagreement-over-maritime-accord-between-turkey-libyas-gna

Erdog is at it again.  I wonder at what point the U.S. will make the move to create a different base for our interests in the region?

[Space Commander Travis]

It seems they're talking about mineral rights. How would the Libyan "government" (one of many that give themselves the title) be able to enforce whatever claims they may have. Their navy consists of about one gunboat, doesn't it. 

[RoofGardener]

hmm.. I can't seem to find any maps of the proposed sea boundaries ? One source says that the expanded maritime borders mean that Libya and Turkey's waters actually meet in the middle of the Mediterranean; a preposterous concept that would imply a 250+ mile region of control from each countries physical coastlines. This would intrude on the waters of Egypt, Greece, Malta, Lebanon, Syria and Israel ! 

Typical Islamic chutzpah ! 

[RoofGardener]

32 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

It seems they're talking about mineral rights. How would the Libyan "government" (one of many that give themselves the title) be able to enforce whatever claims they may have. Their navy consists of about one gunboat, doesn't it. 

One ageing (1980's vintage) anti-submarine frigate, one minesweeper and two ancient landing craft. 

They have a second frigate, but it has been interned in Malta !  

The Turkish Navy, on the other hand, is probably as capable as the Royal Navy ! 

Edited December 6, 2019 by RoofGardener

[Space Commander Travis]

51 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

One ageing (1980's vintage) anti-submarine frigate, one minesweeper and two ancient landing craft. 

They have a second frigate, but it has been interned in Malta !  

The Turkish Navy, on the other hand, is probably as capable as the Royal Navy ! 

I see they have a Landing Platform Dock that can also serve as aircraft carrier under construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Anadolu, which will be capable of operating the F-35B STOVL stealth multirole combat aircraft.^[2][3][4][6]  

But probably costs about 1/10th of the cost of the Royal Navy's HMS Queen Elizabeth 

 

[Eldorado]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

 

The Turkish Navy, on the other hand, is probably as capable as the Royal Navy ! 

 

"The Royal Navy also operates 4 Vanguard class ballistic missile submarines. Each of these boats can carry a maximum of 192 nuclear warheads. Such load is sufficient to wipe-out entire countries."

Top 10 Navies in the World: http://www.military-today.com/navy/top_10_navies.htm

[Kittens Are Jerks]

3 hours ago, and then said:

https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/2021156/greece-registers-disagreement-over-maritime-accord-between-turkey-libyas-gna

Erdog is at it again.  I wonder at what point the U.S. will make the move to create a different base for our interests in the region?

Sooner rather than later (one would hope) given that the US has other viable base options in the area.Turkey may have been a Cold War ally, but it is an ally no more.  Erdogan is vehemently anti-US (and anti-West for that matter) and his strategic pivot towards Russia is evidence of that. I don't know that Turkey can be kicked out of NATO, but if that's not possible, NATO should, at the very least, quarantine them. 

[Unusual Tournament]

4 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Sooner rather than later (one would hope) given that the US has other viable base options in the area.Turkey may have been a Cold War ally, but it is an ally no more.  Erdogan is vehemently anti-US (and anti-West for that matter) and his strategic pivot towards Russia is evidence of that. I don't know that Turkey can be kicked out of NATO, but if that's not possible, NATO should, at the very least, quarantine them. 

Yes Kitten but Trump is best mates with Erdogan. So as long as Trump is providing interference for Erdogan's Neo-Ottoman fantasies i think the world will have to wait for another American president to confront troublesome Turkey. 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

Yes Kitten but Trump is best mates with Erdogan. So as long as Trump is providing interference for Erdogan's Neo-Ottoman fantasies i think the world will have to wait for another American president to confront troublesome Turkey. 

'Troublesome' Turkey is putting it mildly. Trump and his allies constantly point to Turkey's legacy as a Cold War ally, but the fact of the matter is, those who once stood with the US are now long gone. The US (and others) are now dealing with a new, and dangerous, strategic reality, and they need to come to terms with that. 

[Unusual Tournament]

Just now, Kittens Are Jerks said:

'Troublesome' Turkey is putting it mildly. Trump and his allies constantly point to Turkey's legacy as a Cold War ally, but the fact of the matter is, those who once stood with the US are now long gone. The US (and others) are now dealing with a new, and dangerous, strategic reality, and they need to come to terms with that. 

Absolutely. This new Turkey has no problem playing best friends with the Russians and using the current administration in Washington to protect it from any fallout from Congress. I think the next American president won't be such an easy pushover for the sultan. 

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Eldorado said:

"The Royal Navy also operates 4 Vanguard class ballistic missile submarines. Each of these boats can carry a maximum of 192 nuclear warheads. Such load is sufficient to wipe-out entire countries."

Top 10 Navies in the World: http://www.military-today.com/navy/top_10_navies.htm

We would NEVER use the CAS-D in anger, only if we where attacked by nuclear weapons ourselves. They therefore play no part in tactical combat. 

The Turkish Navy could easily hold the Royal Navy at bay, aircraft carriers and all. (well, they could in the Mediterranean, anyway). 

You mention Vanguard submarines, @Eldorado, but consider this.... 

The Royal Navy has six attack submarines (conventionally armed). The Turkish Navy has TWELVE ! All ultra-silent diesel-electrics. 

And then there is the Libyan Navy to contend with. They have the ability to.. wait... why are you laughing ? Stop laughing immediately, or I will take the football home with me !  

[+and-then]

13 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

hmm.. I can't seem to find any maps of the proposed sea boundaries ? One source says that the expanded maritime borders mean that Libya and Turkey's waters actually meet in the middle of the Mediterranean; a preposterous concept that would imply a 250+ mile region of control from each countries physical coastlines. This would intrude on the waters of Egypt, Greece, Malta, Lebanon, Syria and Israel ! 

Typical Islamic chutzpah ! 

The thing about insane mutterings from world leaders is that we know that sometimes they will actually DO WHAT THEY SAY if people give them enough room through disbelief or incredulity.

13 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

It seems they're talking about mineral rights. How would the Libyan "government" (one of many that give themselves the title) be able to enforce whatever claims they may have. Their navy consists of about one gunboat, doesn't it. 

Yes... I wasn't referring to sea water.  That isn't the point, is it?  The issue is the unilateral claim of rights in an international geography where freedom of navigation is insured by international treaty.  Even you should be aware of the role established precedent can affect future negotiations or court cases.  You and others here make enough of a fuss about it where Israel's seizure of land is concerned.  So, if this is okay, what's wrong with Israel unilaterally annexing the Jordan Valley or the Golan?  

The thread isn't ABOUT Israel, however.  It's about Sunni Islam being represented by a would-be Sultan who also happens to be the leader (or despot) of a major NATO ally.  Considering the history over Cyprus, you'd think the frothing at the mouth fundy Islamist would remember that Greece might have something to say about how those rights are divided, no?

[ThereWeAreThen]

22 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Sooner rather than later (one would hope) given that the US has other viable base options in the area.Turkey may have been a Cold War ally, but it is an ally no more.  Erdogan is vehemently anti-US (and anti-West for that matter) and his strategic pivot towards Russia is evidence of that. I don't know that Turkey can be kicked out of NATO, but if that's not possible, NATO should, at the very least, quarantine them. 

I'd love to see the Turks kicked out of NATO and for NATO to arm the **** out of the Kurds. Then, support the Kurds having their own state.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 hour ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

I'd love to see the Turks kicked out of NATO and for NATO to arm the **** out of the Kurds. Then, support the Kurds having their own state.

I'd love to see Turkey out of NATO as well.

The following is an interesting article on the subject, and provides some historical context on Canada's early efforts to include an expulsion/suspension provision in the treaty. Those efforts got a lukewarm reception in 1948, so there are currently no provisions regarding the suspension of membership rights or the expulsion of an ally. Just the same, it's still legally possible, although it may prove problematic on a number of fronts.

https://www.justsecurity.org/66574/can-turkey-be-expelled-from-nato/

[+and-then]

9 hours ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

I'd love to see the Turks kicked out of NATO and for NATO to arm the **** out of the Kurds. Then, support the Kurds having their own state.

I've been saying the same thing since '93 or so.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Anyone got a map?

[+and-then]

12 hours ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Anyone got a map?

I have one but it isn't in English.  It's actually 2 maps, a before and after of economic exclusion zones in the Mediterranean
 

From the blog - 

UPDATE 8 December 2019: On the sidelines of the NATO Summit in London last week, direct talks between Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Greek President Kyriakos Mitsotakis failed to find a resolution to the Eastern Mediterranean Sea exclusive economic zone (EEZ) crisis. No great surprise here, as the Greeks have noted to the international community, there isn't a neighboring country on any Turkish border that is not in a bilateral conflict with Turkey. 

By way of publication in the Turkish Government's Official Gazette and ratification by the Turkish Parliament, the Istanbul Accord, a maritime exclusive economic zone agreement between Turkey and Libya's internationally recognized GNA government in Tripoli, Libya went into effect yesterday to divide the Eastern Mediterranean Sea between them. Erdogan also announced yesterday that accord has been delivered to the United Nations by Turkey.

[+and-then]

Update:

https://www.jns.org/is-turkey-trying-to-sabotage-the-massive-new-israel-cyprus-greece-eastmed-gas-deal/ 

https://www.meforum.org/60192/turkeys-gunboat-gambit-in-the-mediterranean?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=5ac3f28295-MEF_bekdil_2020_01_02_11_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-5ac3f28295-33869925&goal=0_086cfd423c-5ac3f28295-33869925&mc_cid=5ac3f28295&mc_eid=18fd4134a2

The motives begin to come a little more clear.