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Ozfactor

Volcano Erupts in New Zealand

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, Arbenol said:

I am private industry?????

I think I know what you mean. But you've moved the goalposts. I actually agree with you here. I even alluded to such in an earlier post. My response to you was to this comment:

"Why does any government allow tourist excursions on an active volcano?"

That's a wholly different comment to the one above.

You a citizen of a country where this occurred. Your post was a bit rambling. If you want to taken, specifically, confine yourself, at least for paragraph, to such specificities. You brush my question aside,and went off on another tangent. Active volcanos are potentially lethal. Should people be allowed to play on them? Take the spouse and kids, have a little picnic?

 

 

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susieice
5 hours ago, Arbenol said:

I drive past several of them every day. A constant reminder that we're only here by geologic consent.

I do have some concerns that tourist dollars were a predominant issue when considering access to the island. I have no doubt that those questions will be asked.

New Zealand is opening an investigation.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/new-zealand-open-criminal-investigation-deaths-volcano-eruption-n1098796

The 8 who are missing are presumed deceased and of the 31 in hospital, 25 are in burn units and it is possible they will not all survive.

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Arbenol
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Active volcanos are potentially lethal. Should people be allowed to play on them? Take the spouse and kids, have a little picnic?

 

 

For volcanoes substitute cars, guns, the ocean, mountains, flying, skiing, motorcycles, etc...

I'm surprised, to be honest. I would never have had you pegged as a supporter of the nanny state.

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joc

SIXTH person is confirmed to have died in New Zealand volcano disaster: Death toll now feared to be 14, with eight missing, presumed killed – as police investigate

 

A sixth person has died after a volcanic island erupted in New Zealand, amid fears the final death toll could reach 14 including eight people who are still missing. 

Police said the sixth victim was being treated in hospital before dying of their injuries late Tuesday. Five people had earlier been confirmed killed in the disaster, which struck White Island at 2.11pm on Monday. All eight missing are thought to have died.

Thirty people are still being treated in hospital - some with 90 per cent burns - and three have been treated and released. Pete Watson, New Zealand's chief medic, said it is possible that 'not all' of the wounded will survive. 

In total 47 tourists were on White Island when it erupted, among them: 24 from Australia, nine from the US, five from New Zealand, four from Germany, two from the UK, two from China and one from Malaysia.

LINK

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Kismit  Thinking of you!  I always do when I hear anything about New Zealand. :(

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third_eye

Be safe, stay safe... 

~

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Kismit

@joc we are nowhere near the volcanoes and all of the ones around here have no lava left in them.

but it is a horrible horrible thing

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Doug1029
11 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Active volcanos are potentially lethal. Should people be allowed to play on them? Take the spouse and kids, have a little picnic?

How do you decide which volcanoes to isolate?  Yellowstone has periodic seismic rumbles and continually belches steam, yet it is open to the public.  Mauna Loa is in continuous eruption and has been since 1983 - just stay away from the vents lower down the sides.  Capulin hasn't erupted in 50,000 years and shows no signs of activity.  Mount Shasta is still active and is a park.  Nova Rupta in Alaska blew its stack in 1910, but has never been closed to the public.  Where do you draw the line?

Doug

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Hammerclaw
10 hours ago, Arbenol said:

For volcanoes substitute cars, guns, the ocean, mountains, flying, skiing, motorcycles, etc...

I'm surprised, to be honest. I would never have had you pegged as a supporter of the nanny state.

I'm surprised a supporter of the nanny state is now tap dancing so briskly on the head of a pin. Shoe uncomfortable on the other foot?

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susieice
1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

How do you decide which volcanoes to isolate?  Yellowstone has periodic seismic rumbles and continually belches steam, yet it is open to the public.  Mauna Loa is in continuous eruption and has been since 1983 - just stay away from the vents lower down the sides.  Capulin hasn't erupted in 50,000 years and shows no signs of activity.  Mount Shasta is still active and is a park.  Nova Rupta in Alaska blew its stack in 1910, but has never been closed to the public.  Where do you draw the line?

Doug

Mt Rainier last erupted in 1894 and is an active volcano along with being a park.

https://geology.com/usgs/rainier/

So is Mt St Helen's and it reopened to the public a few years after the 1980 eruption. It also erupted in July of 2008.

https://parks.state.wa.us/245/Mount-St-Helens

Mount Saint Helens/Last eruption
 
July 10, 2008
 
 
 
 

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Grey Area
17 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Never said it was an isolated case. Post 21 sums up my own opinion. People get killed all the time in our parks sticking their necks out, going off trail, climbing fences, crossing barriers. To me, allowing private industry to sell this sort of potential death as a thrill ride crosses the line. Pointing out other instances of it doesn't sway my opinion in the least.

Tell that to the skiing industry, they’ve been profiting off risking the elements for years.

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Hammerclaw
6 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Tell that to the skiing industry, they’ve been profiting off risking the elements for years.

Profit is key.

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susieice

Mt Lassen last erupted in a series that stretched from 1914-1917. It also is still a National Park.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/old.1998/fs173-98/

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Grey Area
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Profit is key.

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand your position, if a private enterprise is profitable then the risk is acceptable?

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Hammerclaw
5 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand your position, if a private enterprise is profitable then the risk is acceptable?

No, that's why they do it. Set people on the tiny tip of an active volcano, just sticking up out of the water, rolling the dice with their lives for a few bucks.

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Doug1029
14 minutes ago, susieice said:

Mt Lassen last erupted in a series that stretched from 1914-1917. It also is still a National Park.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/old.1998/fs173-98/

I used to work in north Idaho, tracking an eruption of Mount St. Helens from 30,000 years ago.  It left an ash layer three inches thick in that area.  The 1980 one left one a quarter-inch thick in that area.  St. Helens has unleashed some big eruptions in the past.

Doug

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Grey Area
8 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, that's why they do it. Set people on the tiny tip of an active volcano, just sticking up out of the water, rolling the dice with their lives for a few bucks.

Yes, but what I am trying to understand is that given all the other risky activities available for a price, are you advocating that governments should shut them down also?  Or is it just this one particular isolated incident?

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Hammerclaw
13 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Yes, but what I am trying to understand is that given all the other risky activities available for a price, are you advocating that governments should shut them down also?  Or is it just this one particular isolated incident?

Commenting on a topic and nothing more. People roll the dice all the time, swimming in waters frequented by sharks. These people were just tourists and vacationers, out on a lark, not experienced sportsmen or adventurers. I feel they were ill-informed of the lethal risk they were taking, or that it was minimized.

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Arbenol
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I'm surprised a supporter of the nanny state is now tap dancing so briskly on the head of a pin.

That would surprise me too. Who are we talking about?

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Hammerclaw
11 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

That would surprise me too. Who are we talking about?

Anyone who agrees with government regulation of public and private industry in the interest of public safety, I suppose.

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Arbenol
3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Anyone who agrees with government regulation of public and private industry in the interest of public safety, I suppose.

And that's the crux of the matter, I guess. A criminal investigation has already commenced to see if the tour operators broke laws. Specifically those relating to the operators' legal obligations to protect their clients - regulations that are already in place through occupational work and safety laws. What I don't agree with is a blanket ban on access to potentially dangerous places. That should be the responsibility of the individual and / or those people that get paid to take them there. It's not the government's business beyond putting in place those regulations and laws to begin with. 

 

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and then
On 12/9/2019 at 2:32 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Why does any government allow tourist excursions on an active volcano? 

Excellent question.  The tourism take can't be worth the potential costs in loss of life and reputation.

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, and then said:

Excellent question.  The tourism take can't be worth the potential costs in loss of life and reputation.

As another poster stated, it's complicated. One of our Biggest National Parks, Yellowstone, sits on top a very active super volcano. All we can hope to accomplish is to minimize the risk. Tourists will, never-the-less, still find creative ways to get themselves killed. Sometimes I think calling them "Parks" causes people to let their guard down.

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and then
23 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You're private industry put those people in harm's way for profit and they paid with their lives. Deal with it.

It sort of puts the gun control issue into stark relief for me.  They create a harsh Nanny State where guns are concerned but it's pretty casual where tourism in deadly places are concerned.  I wonder which has caused more loss of life and limb over the years?  Real question, don't mean to start an argument.  Just curious.  Both issues seem to be about personal responsibility to me.

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Arbenol
14 minutes ago, and then said:

It sort of puts the gun control issue into stark relief for me.  They create a harsh Nanny State where guns are concerned but it's pretty casual where tourism in deadly places are concerned.  I wonder which has caused more loss of life and limb over the years?  Real question, don't mean to start an argument.  Just curious.  Both issues seem to be about personal responsibility to me.

I just hope we don't see the same kind of knee-jerk reaction to this as we did to the Christchurch massacre. Sensible regulations is one thing, but when overdone it unfairly impacts too many people. And you're correct - it's all about personal responsibility. 

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and then
49 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

I just hope we don't see the same kind of knee-jerk reaction to this as we did to the Christchurch massacre. Sensible regulations is one thing, but when overdone it unfairly impacts too many people. And you're correct - it's all about personal responsibility. 

Totally agree.  If people are made aware of the dangers and are willing to take on the risk then that should be the end of the discussion.

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