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Eldorado

The North Magnetic Pole is on the move

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Eldorado

"Everyone knows that the Earth has two magnetic poles, the North and the South Pole.

"But what everyone doesn't know is that the North Magnetic Pole is on the move, and this movement could disrupt aviation and navigation systems and GPS systems.

"News of the pole's meanderings was released by The World Magnetic Model (WMM), a joint endeavor of the U.S. National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) and the UK Defence Geographic Centre (DGC).

"The WMM produces an updated model of Earth's magnetic field every 5 years."

Full monty at Interesting Engineering: https://interestingengineering.com/earths-magnetic-north-pole-is-hightailing-it-toward-siberia

"The World Magnetic Model" : https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/WMM/

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Piney

It's been on the move for a while.

The laughable part is the Edgar Cayce A.R.E. whistleheads think the planet's going to flop on it's side and toss the Great Lakes into L.A., Miss, and Ala. :lol:

 

 

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XenoFish

Santa's relocating his factory and taking the north pole with him.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Eldorado said:

"Everyone knows that the Earth has two magnetic poles, the North and the South Pole.

"But what everyone doesn't know is that the North Magnetic Pole is on the move, and this movement could disrupt aviation and navigation systems and GPS systems.

"News of the pole's meanderings was released by The World Magnetic Model (WMM), a joint endeavor of the U.S. National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) and the UK Defence Geographic Centre (DGC).

"The WMM produces an updated model of Earth's magnetic field every 5 years."

Full monty at Interesting Engineering: https://interestingengineering.com/earths-magnetic-north-pole-is-hightailing-it-toward-siberia

"The World Magnetic Model" : https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/WMM/

Currently it appears that we are seeing a Pole shift that occurs every so many hundreds of thousands of years. The pole shift is the beginning of a much larger process called a complete Pole Reversal. When this happens basically the north and south poles switch locations. Scientists studying this phenomenon state that this has also happened many times throughout Earths History. So far the studies have shown that during these shifts weather on the planet is not effected, so Globle Warming issues are not do to shifts of these poles in anyway. 

http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2019/09/our-magnetic-poles-shifted-in-the-past-are-we-overdue-for-another-shift-and-how-will-that-affect-our-electronics-the-continents-and-the-suns-effect-on-us-while-the-poles-shift

 

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Piney said:

It's been on the move for a while.

The laughable part is the Edgar Cayce A.R.E. whistleheads think the planet's going to flop on it's side and toss the Great Lakes into L.A., Miss, and Ala. :lol:

 

 

What a bunch of freaks. 

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Piney
5 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

What a bunch of freaks. 

My neighbor is one of them. I gave up discussing anything with her when she found out I worked for Smithsonian.

I'm involved in the "coverup". :ph34r:

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'Walt' E. Kurtz

Seems like everything is going south..

Edited by 'Walt' E. Kurtz
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Manwon Lender
11 minutes ago, Piney said:

My neighbor is one of them. I gave up discussing anything with her when she found out I worked for Smithsonian.

I'm involved in the "coverup". :ph34r:

Your far to kind, I would told her in confidence that the current shift is going to place the North Pole dead center on New York. I would have further said since the Pole was shifting to that location, over the next two years the ice would start moving with it. So she had better have her insulated very well, because it going to get very very cold.:w00t:

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Manwon Lender
14 minutes ago, 'Walt' E. Kurtz said:

Seems like everything is going south..

I wonder if President Trump sees this as a Immegration violation.

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ChrLzs
2 hours ago, Eldorado said:

and this movement could disrupt aviation and navigation systems and GPS systems.

Yes, some systems do use magnetic field information, as do conventional compasses of course, but GPS does *not* use magnetic fields, so the vast majority of newer nav systems should not be troubled.  Besides, the shift happens s  l  o  w  l  y, so whatever needs to be done will be.  We already have indications on maps to correct for true north versus mag north...

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

Modern navigation systems work by radio, not magnetism. Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems a bit exagerated to me.

Anyway we have known that the magnetic poles are moving for a long time, so this is nothing new.

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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Doc Socks Junior
2 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Yes, some systems do use magnetic field information, as do conventional compasses of course, but GPS does *not* use magnetic fields, so the vast majority of newer nav systems should not be troubled.  Besides, the shift happens s  l  o  w  l  y, so whatever needs to be done will be.  We already have indications on maps to correct for true north versus mag north...

The GPS systems in consumer electronics definitely use magnetic navigational techniques alongside their GPS usage. That's precisely why the update was needed. The shift is not happening s l o w l y it's happening quite quickly recently.

North dip poles

The North Pole, certainly more so than the South Pole. Different behavior in the core.

Magnetic declination are on maps - but from whenever that map was printed. From 2010-2019 (using Denver as an example), magnetic declination changed by 1.3 degrees. That introduces substantial change if trying to navigate.

Becomes worse the farther north one goes.

39 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Modern navigation systems work by radio, not magnetism. Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems a bit exagerated to me.

Anyway we have known that the magnetic poles are moving for a long time, so this is nothing new.

They work by magnetism also...

Yes, we know they're moving. And yes, they've always been moving, correct. Thus, to navigate, we need to take account of that movement. Which is what the article was saying.

I hate to say it, but y'all are both behaving like those who say "The climate is always changing, so we don't need to worry about it changing now." It's frustrating to me, as a scientist studying the magnetic field.

Certainly, this isn't some apocalyptic thing, but a little respect for the importance and value of it would be appreciated.

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
13 minutes ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

They work by magnetism also...

Yes, we know they're moving. And yes, they've always been moving, correct. Thus, to navigate, we need to take account of that movement. Which is what the article was saying.

I hate to say it, but y'all are both behaving like those who say "The climate is always changing, so we don't need to worry about it changing now." It's frustrating to me, as a scientist studying the magnetic field.

Certainly, this isn't some apocalyptic thing, but a little respect for the importance and value of it would be appreciated.

I did quite clearly say "Maybe I'm missing something". Apparently I was.

I think it is totally uncalled for to compare me to a climate change deniar. 

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Doc Socks Junior
1 minute ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I did quite clearly say "Maybe I'm missing something". Apparently I was.

I think it is totally uncalled for to compare me to a climate change deniar. 

Quoted from the OP:

"The World Magnetic Model is used by GPS services, telecommunications transmission systems, smartphone compass apps, maps and the navigation tools used by various agencies, including the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the U.S. Department of Defense and NATO."

You quite clearly missed the entire original point of the topic. Yet you still felt the need to call it 'exaggerated'.

This rate of movement is also quite new in recorded history, as also stated in the original article posted in this topic. Yet you still felt the need to call it 'nothing new'.

I did quite clearly say I hate to make the comparison. I think it's instructive to think about how the pattern of behavior is nearly identical, however.

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
3 minutes ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

Quoted from the OP:

"The World Magnetic Model is used by GPS services, telecommunications transmission systems, smartphone compass apps, maps and the navigation tools used by various agencies, including the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the U.S. Department of Defense and NATO."

You quite clearly missed the entire original point of the topic. Yet you still felt the need to call it 'exaggerated'.

This rate of movement is also quite new in recorded history, as also stated in the original article posted in this topic. Yet you still felt the need to call it 'nothing new'.

I did quite clearly say I hate to make the comparison. I think it's instructive to think about how the pattern of behavior is nearly identical, however.

I said I think its a bit exaggerated to say it could "disrupt out lives" when it is something that can be compensated for. I think we see too many clickbaity articles, so I just wanted people to know that this isn't going to "disrupt our lives" as the headline says. 

From the article: Over the next several months, Google and Apple will change the magnetic field maps in Android and iPhones as part of their general software updates.

Now suddenly I'm someone who is compared to a climate change denier. :wacko:

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ChrLzs
1 hour ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

The GPS systems in consumer electronics definitely use magnetic navigational techniques alongside their GPS usage.

Yes, some do.  Not all.  Generally you will note that when they refer to the systems that use both they refer to it as GPS augmented with magnetic field information.  Ie GPS is commonly referred to just as the satellite component.

Quote

Magnetic declination are on maps - but from whenever that map was printed. From 2010-2019 (using Denver as an example), magnetic declination changed by 1.3 degrees. That introduces substantial change if trying to navigate.

Becomes worse the farther north one goes.

Indeed.  In other words, we already have systems in place for dealing with the inclination change, and the reason for the magnetic field augmentation is as an additional source only - GPS systems still work in the absence of magnetic field info, and at high/low latitudes that info may not be available at all.  The GPS info overrides any magnetic input.

Quote

I hate to say it, but y'all are both behaving like those who say "The climate is always changing, so we don't need to worry about it changing now." It's frustrating to me, as a scientist studying the magnetic field.

??????  As NEIC said, I'm not particularly impressed with that comparison either.  May I bold the part you apparently didn't read...

Quote

Yes, some systems do use magnetic field information, as do conventional compasses of course, but GPS does *not* use magnetic fields, so the vast majority of newer nav systems should not be troubled.

So I did say that some systems use magnetic info.  I didn't give percentages....  And are you disputing the fact that newer nav systems should not be troubled?  In what way, given that the vast majority of current ones manage to work in the absence of magnetic field info, is it a problem?  Are magnetic field inclination changes not implemented properly or at all?  I'm genuinely interested..

Quote

Besides, the shift happens s  l  o  w  l  y, so whatever needs to be done will be.  We already have indications on maps to correct for true north versus mag north...

Yes, I agree it is and will be faster.  So more change info will have to be dealt out/updated, right?  Are the systems not in place, or do lower end GPS systems just have one set inclination, for their augmentation routine?

It just seems to me (as a climate change denier, apparently) that all this means is that we will have to do more updates (if that is possible for given systems), and also educate users of older systems that use magnetic augmentation, that there may be situations when they lose accuracy, eg in long tunnels, or anywhere near a large magnet.......

 

So, to complete this global warming analogy, what do we need to do right now - ie what is it that governments are ignoring?

Edited by ChrLzs
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Doc Socks Junior
44 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I said I think its a bit exaggerated to say it could "disrupt out lives" when it is something that can be compensated for. I think we see too many clickbaity articles, so I just wanted people to know that this isn't going to "disrupt our lives" as the headline says. 

From the article: Over the next several months, Google and Apple will change the magnetic field maps in Android and iPhones as part of their general software updates.

Now suddenly I'm someone who is compared to a climate change denier. :wacko:

I definitely came on a little strong, but there was a point to it. I'm sure you're a scientifically literate person, in fact, I've experienced it myself on this forum, which is why your attitude towards this important scientific issue was surprising to me.

It's not going to disrupt our lives because scientists are actively fixing the issue. But if even intelligent, scientifically literate people start brushing these things off "nothing new" (which is patently incorrect) or any number of similar things - imagine what people who don't understand these things think?

"Oh, it's just more BS out of those dang scientists."

Not a good road to go down. For my edification, point out the intellectual difference between:

"Anyway we have known that the magnetic poles are moving for a long time, so this is nothing new."

and

"Anyway we have known that the climate is changing for a long time, so this is nothing new."

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Manwon Lender
25 minutes ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

I definitely came on a little strong, but there was a point to it. I'm sure you're a scientifically literate person, in fact, I've experienced it myself on this forum, which is why your attitude towards this important scientific issue was surprising to me.

It's not going to disrupt our lives because scientists are actively fixing the issue. But if even intelligent, scientifically literate people start brushing these things off "nothing new" (which is patently incorrect) or any number of similar things - imagine what people who don't understand these things think?

"Oh, it's just more BS out of those dang scientists."

Not a good road to go down. For my edification, point out the intellectual difference between:

"Anyway we have known that the magnetic poles are moving for a long time, so this is nothing new."

and

"Anyway we have known that the climate is changing for a long time, so this is nothing new."

This isn't the first time this has occurred, it's occurred many times throughout Earths history. A Pole shift isn't as bad as a complete Pole reversal which has also occurred many times. These episodes happen due to movements in the Earths liquid core, and they are a normal part of the geological process of the Earths aging.

Now Scientists have the ability through studying the Geology of the planet to know when and where these shifts and reversals have occurred in the past. Due to this and the fossil records of the time they occurred, are able to say that these occurrences did not make any major changes to life on this planet. In addition, they have taken seabed cores along with ice cores and they have determined that during the episodes the Earths weather wasn't effected.

Since the atmosphere is weakest directly over the poles other portions of the earth will be exposed to more radiation from the sun than they normally receive, this is normal during the Pole shift and Pole reversals. However, this process is slow so no major effects or even noticed. Now while this Pole shift appears to be moving very rapidly, they haven't even been tracked except for the last 70 years or so. In the opinion of the real scientific community, this not a major issue, while some less educated people are running around like chicken little screaming the sky is falling.

i am not all that concerned about this issue, the scientific proof is there if you are. It's always best to educate yourself on a subject before being too concerned about it.

JIMO

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Doc Socks Junior
3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

This isn't the first time this has occurred, it's occurred many times throughout Earths history. A Pole shift isn't as bad as a complete Pole reversal which has also occurred many times. These episodes happen due to movements in the Earths liquid core, and they are a normal part of the geological process of the Earths aging.

Now Scientists have the ability through studying the Geology of the planet to know when and where these shifts and reversals have occurred in the past. Due to this and the fossil records of the time they occurred, are able to say that these occurrences did not make any major changes to life on this planet. In addition, they have taken seabed cores along with ice cores and they have determined that during the episodes the Earths weather wasn't effected.

Since the atmosphere is weakest directly over the poles other portions of the earth will be exposed to more radiation from the sun than they normally receive, this is normal during the Pole shift and Pole reversals. However, this process is slow so no major effects or even noticed. Now while this Pole shift appears to be moving very rapidly, they haven't even been tracked except for the last 70 years or so. In the opinion of the real scientific community, this not a major issue, while some less educated people are running around like chicken little screaming the sky is falling.

i am not all that concerned about this issue, the scientific proof is there if you are. It's always best to educate yourself on a subject before being too concerned about it.

JIMO

Thanks for the information about the geomagnetic field. I appreciate you taking the effort to educate me about it. I suppose one learns something new everyday!

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Manwon Lender
23 minutes ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

Thanks for the information about the geomagnetic field. I appreciate you taking the effort to educate me about it. I suppose one learns something new everyday!

Your very welcome but all that information is online, if you have any further interest I would check it out. Like I said some scientists agree and others still think this is a big issue, you have to look at the research , if someone speaks but offers none I would not listen to them. Any competent scientist is going to use research to back up his theory or statements.

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Doc Socks Junior
33 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Your very welcome but all that information is online, if you have any further interest I would check it out. Like I said some scientists agree and others still think this is a big issue, you have to look at the research , if someone speaks but offers none I would not listen to them. Any competent scientist is going to use research to back up his theory or statements.

I may indeed check out some research on the geomagnetic field. Certainly sounds like an interesting topic. The people who study it seem like huge nerds though, you know?

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Manwon Lender
38 minutes ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

I may indeed check out some research on the geomagnetic field. Certainly sounds like an interesting topic. The people who study it seem like huge nerds though, you know?

They most likely are, but without them where would we be?

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Doc Socks Junior
10 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

They most likely are, but without them where would we be?

True! If one of them was available, I'd certainly be interested in what they said about the current field activity and how important it was. 

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moonmare143

North magnetic poles is on the move becose of melting glacier!

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Doug1029
On 12/15/2019 at 4:28 PM, ChrLzs said:

Yes, some systems do use magnetic field information, as do conventional compasses of course, but GPS does *not* use magnetic fields, so the vast majority of newer nav systems should not be troubled.  Besides, the shift happens s  l  o  w  l  y, so whatever needs to be done will be.  We already have indications on maps to correct for true north versus mag north...

It was a mistake in using magnetic declination that caused the very first survey line (the Geographer's Line) in the US' Public Land Survey to be declined 1.3 degrees.  The result was that the entire Seven Ranges Survey is 1.3 degrees off true.  The west line of the Seven Ranges Survey was used as a meridian by the Ohio Survey, so that entire survey is also off.  And they knew about the shifting poles - they just forgot to apply the knowledge.

Doug

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