The Road to Brexit

[L.A.T.1961]

23 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

Really they are behaving like any large trading block with all the advantages - dictating terms. This was pointed out numerous times in the aftermath of the referendum that the UK was at a significant disadvantage in negotiations because they had everything to lose and the EU little to lose. You wouldn't be remotely surprised that the USA dictated all the terms of their trade deals so why are you surprised that the EU has similar muscle in negotiations.

It amazes me that you think it would be any other way.

 

Br Cornelius

If the EU had all the advantages then we would still be negotiating, having been forced into more extensions and they would still be in control of UK fishing waters.

The EU also had their $100 billion trade balance to lose which did keep them focused.  

But now they are behaving in the same way as, they claim, the UK does and taking irrational decisions. 

The exclusion from Lugano is not improving the lot of EU citizens, including the 6 million for example who recently received UK citizenship and may need to perform legal activities in the future within the EU from the UK. 

As for breaking trust this is shorthand for the EU not getting what they want.  

[Guest Br Cornelius]

The trade balance is now firmly in the EU's favour which would count as a win for their negotiation stance. However the EU is playing with the UK in allowing these extensions, they are still in the position where they can stop this at any moment when it no longer serves their utility. All the UK can do is beg for a further continuance.

One of the basis on which the Leave campaign sold their fantasy was that they would be able to return to the days when they could dictate their terms to the Empire and the commonwealth, that's not working out as sold either. The British have existed in the expectation that they could push nations around for 100's of years - they are having to come to terms with their failure to maintain their expected status as top dog at any table - which ultimately was the reason why they had to join the EU in the first place (seems they forgot).

 

Br Cornelius

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[L.A.T.1961]

49 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

 However the EU is playing with the UK in allowing these extensions, they are still in the position where they can stop this at any moment when it no longer serves their utility. All the UK can do is beg for a further continuance.

 

Br Cornelius

 

The extensions were applied unilaterally, no begging involved, by the UK to much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the EU and claims of breaking international law from various commentators.

Now the EU have withdrawn legal action on extensions and accepted the UK move to unwind tensions while negotiating a modified NI protocol. 

If the EU decided not to adjust rules then UK can trigger A 16 and bin the lot.

I would imagine the EU will want some control rather than non so lets see what happens.  

 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Bin the Lot, is that code for WTO terms. O so attractive an outcome for the UK.
Its all wins for those plucky Brits. And yes breaking a treaty agreement is grounds for legal action and lowers confidence in the UK as a honest partner, and there are consequences for every other negotiation the UK enters into anywhere in the world - so there is no free lunch. The UK's reputation is in tatters.

I would guess that the EU is desperately trying to talk the Brits down from the ledge and that's where the tolerance is coming from

 

Br Cornelius

Edited September 10, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[LV-426]

2 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

The British have existed in the expectation that they could push nations around for 100's of years - they are having to come to terms with their failure to maintain their expected status as top dog at any table

 

This isn't the expectation of the British public, Br.

This is your own, barely contained, contemptful view of Britain, mired in the past.

The Brits I know care nothing for status, power or clinging onto an empire of yesteryear.

An element still think that way - inside and outside of government - but the majority just want to get on with their lives, free from EU bureaucratic control. Hell, we already have enough to cope with, with local and national bureaucracy.

 

Most people I talk to are barely interested in maintaining the Union anymore. They're that tired of England being portrayed as the villain for events that occured decades ago... centuries ago... of being the only nation where it's a sin to feel any kind of national pride, that they would be happy to be more reclusive.

 

Don't you - and others - think at some point, it might be good just to let go of the anger and move on?

 

Actually, come to think of it, doesn't some of this reflect what is happening with the US too?

It doesn't matter whether it's Trump or Biden, 'America First' or the withdrawal from Afghanistan, they are becoming more insular, constantly criticized for involvement in other nations.

 

Doesn't it make you wonder, when the world inevitably comes to major conflict again - and it is when not if, history has taught us that - where will be the first place other nations look to for aid and protection?

Let's just hope there's still a little goodwill left...

[L.A.T.1961]

26 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Bin the Lot, is that code for WTO terms. O so attractive an outcome for the UK.
Its all wins for those plucky Brits. And yes breaking a treaty agreement is grounds for legal action and lowers confidence in the UK as a honest partner, and there are consequences for every other negotiation the UK enters into anywhere in the world - so there is no free lunch. The UK's reputation is in tatters.

I would guess that the EU is desperately trying to talk the Brits down from the ledge and that's where the tolerance is coming from

 

Br Cornelius

The UK reputation is in tatters until there is a need for international aid or military support to remove their citizens from Afghanistan, then not so much. 

I guess ledges look bigger if you are one of the little people. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by L.A.T.1961

[Silver]

10 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

Further with regard to the Lugano convention, is it any surprise that the EU has blocked the UK from using its facilities given the degree to which the UK has broken trust in its commitment to the laws, treaties and obligations it has made over the last 4 years. An institution which is built on the trust that member states will follow its proclamations in order to smooth over inter state disputes is not a place for a country which treats International law as a tool to constrain its competitors but also an inconvenience which can be ignored at its own whim.
Trust is earned, and Britain has lost the trust of the world due to recent and long standing behaviour.

 

Br Cornelius

Exactly! The UK used the WA and the NIP as tools for the UK to manipulate its own electorate, to ensure the Tory Party stayed in power and dictated domestic law.

Now the UK will have to pay the price, but unfortunately the price will be paid, not by the elite Tory Party members, but by the electorate who put them in power. They have already shown that by increasing National Insurance (NI) rather than increasing income tax, so that working people will subsidise the more wealthy who quite naturally want to hang on to their property and wealth.

They have been told that the NI increase (which is here to stay) will pay for social care, in the same way that they were told leaving the EU would free up £350 million per week to spend on the NHS.

Increase taxes, and tell the electorate that even if they feel poorer, they are free and sovereign.

They haven't Got Brexit Done, as it isn't possible to get on-going trade agreements done, ever, and they haven't Taken Control of our Borders, because borders by definition belong to other nations as well as the UK.

But the Tory Party has Taken Back Control, as they promised, but it is just that they have taken back control of us. 

 

[Silver]

8 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

 

This isn't the expectation of the British public, Br.

This is your own, barely contained, contemptful view of Britain, mired in the past.

The Brits I know care nothing for status, power or clinging onto an empire of yesteryear.

An element still think that way - inside and outside of government - but the majority just want to get on with their lives, free from EU bureaucratic control. Hell, we already have enough to cope with, with local and national bureaucracy.

 

Most people I talk to are barely interested in maintaining the Union anymore. They're that tired of England being portrayed as the villain for events that occured decades ago... centuries ago... of being the only nation where it's a sin to feel any kind of national pride, that they would be happy to be more reclusive.

 

Don't you - and others - think at some point, it might be good just to let go of the anger and move on?

 

Actually, come to think of it, doesn't some of this reflect what is happening with the US too?

It doesn't matter whether it's Trump or Biden, 'America First' or the withdrawal from Afghanistan, they are becoming more insular, constantly criticized for involvement in other nations.

 

Doesn't it make you wonder, when the world inevitably comes to major conflict again - and it is when not if, history has taught us that - where will be the first place other nations look to for aid and protection?

Let's just hope there's still a little goodwill left...

One day, you may realise you have been taken for a fool. Hopefully. Let's hope the Red Wall wakes up.

[Silver]

44 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

The extensions were applied unilaterally, no begging involved, by the UK to much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the EU and claims of breaking international law from various commentators.

Now the EU have withdrawn legal action on extensions and accepted the UK move to unwind tensions while negotiating a modified NI protocol. 

If the EU decided not to adjust rules then UK can trigger A 16 and bin the lot.

I would imagine the EU will want some control rather than non so lets see what happens.  

 

Anyone who advocates WTO is demonstrating they know nothing about international trade! Nothing! Just Google WTO and try to understand why nations need trade agreements. It is so frustrating trying to argue with stupid.

[Silver]

2 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

If the EU had all the advantages then we would still be negotiating, having been forced into more extensions and they would still be in control of UK fishing waters.

The EU also had their $100 billion trade balance to lose which did keep them focused.  

But now they are behaving in the same way as, they claim, the UK does and taking irrational decisions. 

The exclusion from Lugano is not improving the lot of EU citizens, including the 6 million for example who recently received UK citizenship and may need to perform legal activities in the future within the EU from the UK. 

As for breaking trust this is shorthand for the EU not getting what they want.  

And I am disappointed with you LAT, you at least have some sense and knowledge, is this Dunning-Kruger or cognitive dissonance?

[LV-426]

42 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

One day, you may realise you have been taken for a fool. Hopefully. Let's hope the Red Wall wakes up.

 

I'm not such a fool that I'm averse to being proven wrong.

Are you?

Edited September 10, 2021 by LV-426

[Silver]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:15 AM, Cookie Monster said:

This is the most hilariously wrong statement I have heard all month.

Bravo, you made me laugh.

Companies in Ireland collect VAT on domestic sales to forward to the Irish version of HMRC. UK companies collect it on domestic sales and forward it to the UK HMRC. VAT is a domestic tax on sales only. It is not transferred across from nation to nation, and couriers do not collect it for the originating nation. That is illegal.

This has nothing to do with membership of the EU or Brexit. It has always always always been the case.

Cookie Monster, I know you have me on ignore, so this won't upset you: you are without doubt the thickest person I have encountered on any internet site, ever.You are so incredibly stupid I am amazed you remember what keys to strike when you type. There. I would never have said something so cruel if I thought you could read this. Have a nice day.

[Silver]

Boris Johnson expects another decade in power.

He has beaten Covid, he has beaten the EU, coerced the US into a deal, and he has beaten the Taliban in Afghanistan.

All he needs to do now is seize complete control of the UK media, and he has control of the UK:Boris Johnson wants to be in charge for another DECADE | Daily Mail Online

All we need to do is defund the BBC and other impatial news outlets, establish GB News as our official news, accept poverty, accept the ruling elite,accept lies, and we will be a free and sovereign country.

 North Korea is not really bad, they control their borders.

Edited September 11, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[LV-426]

26 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

establish GB News as our official news

 

This is how I know for sure you don't watch GB News.

Johnson's had as much criticism on the channel as any other channel. It's just perhaps not your own particular brand of criticism.

  

26 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

All we need to do is defund the BBC and other impatial news outlets

 

This is how I know for sure you don't watch the BBC!

 

Paul Gambaccini had a little to say to Victoria Derbyshire regarding the BBC's impartiality yesterday, after they were complicit with the Met in almost destroying his life, along with many others.

Perhaps they were overcompensating for having protected Jimmy Savile for so many years? *shrugs*

 

 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

The BBC has been a state propaganda tool since it evolved out of the Ministry of Information, its just now a Tory State Propaganda Machine and doesn't care who knows it.  It has lost all credibility as an impartial news source.

All major UK news outlets have government spooks infiltrated into them.

 

The English have one great vice, which is servility to their betters, this makes them a fairly hateful bunch who are not trusted by foreigners for this very servility. The very fact that they just want to put their heads down and forget about all the terrible things their nation has done in their name is their worst characteristic. I am English by birth, but it took me living in a vassal country (Ireland) to really come to terms with how pathetic the English population really is.

 

Br Cornelius 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Br Cornelius
delete duplicate

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Deleted duplicate

Edited September 11, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Br Cornelius said:

The BBC has been a state propaganda tool since it evolved out of the Ministry of Information, its just now a Tory State Propaganda Machine and doesn't care who knows it.  It has lost all credibility as an impartial news source.

All major UK news outlets have government spooks infiltrated into them.

 

The English have one great vice, which is servility to their betters, this makes them a fairly hateful bunch who are not trusted by foreigners for this very servility. The very fact that they just want to put their heads down and forget about all the terrible things their nation has done in their name is their worst characteristic. I am English by birth, but it took me living in a vassal country (Ireland) to really come to terms with how pathetic the English population really is.

 

Br Cornelius 

Morning Red Cornelius.

You must be pretty far left to see the BBC as a right wing propaganda tool lol.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

Morning Red Cornelius.

You must be pretty far left to see the BBC as a right wing propaganda tool lol.

An objective survey of their reporting would support my position, and that survey have been analysed by academics.

 

Br Cornelius

[Duke Wellington]

57 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

An objective survey of their reporting would support my position, and that survey have been analysed by academics.

 

Br Cornelius

Sure... course it does lmao

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Just because some hard right Tory hack tells you the BBC is a den on lefties, doesn't make it true. I am speaking of statistical analysis of their actual news coverage carried out by real academics.

 

Br cornelius

[LV-426]

7 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

The BBC has been a state propaganda tool since it evolved out of the Ministry of Information, its just now a Tory State Propaganda Machine and doesn't care who knows it.  It has lost all credibility as an impartial news source.

 

Seriously?

 

They almost single-handedly led relentless campaigns against Johnson and other Ministers on everything from Jennifer Arcuri and the highly comical "Wallpapergate", through to PPI procurement, Dominic Cummings and David Cameron's lobbying antics!

 

Bear in mind that I do watch the BBC, as well as other news outlets, and I don't consider myself either left or right wing.

Some of the criticism the government receives is warranted, some isn't.

It isn't the responsibility of a state-funded organization to place that criticism though. It's their responsibility to present the facts impartially and let the audience decide.

 

7 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

All major UK news outlets have government spooks infiltrated into them.

 

Do you have any evidence of this to share, or are you joining the ranks of the UM conspiracist fruitcakes?

 

7 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

The English have one great vice, which is servility to their betters, this makes them a fairly hateful bunch who are not trusted by foreigners for this very servility. The very fact that they just want to put their heads down and forget about all the terrible things their nation has done in their name is their worst characteristic. I am English by birth, but it took me living in a vassal country (Ireland) to really come to terms with how pathetic the English population really is.

 

Br Cornelius 

 

I try to give your opinions due consideration, as previously we've shared similar views on subjects such as religion, and you've presented your arguments well.

Do I seriously need to point out just how racist your remarks are though?

The term racism is thrown around far too readily these days, but in this case it is absolutely appropriate.

 

Don't you consider it ironic that someone who regularly espouses fairly radical left-wing ideals, on a wide range of topics, can just fire off a contemptful "how pathetic the English population really is" shot?

How about pointing to the Mark Twain quote in my profile regarding "generalizations"?

 

You really need to take a step back and ask yourself whether you've become the very thing you proclaim to despise...

Edited September 11, 2021 by LV-426

[LV-426]

3 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

Just because some hard right Tory hack tells you the BBC is a den on lefties, doesn't make it true. I am speaking of statistical analysis of their actual news coverage carried out by real academics.

 

Br cornelius

 

Bias at the Beeb?

"Compelling evidence of bias in BBC news reporting is uncovered by economist Dr. Oliver Latham in Bias at the BEEB? A quantitative study of slant in BBC Online reporting.

This paper uses objective, quantitative methods, based on the existing academic literature on media bias, to look for evidence of slant in the BBC’s online reporting."

 

The paper is linked above, but I think it is worth posting the full conclusions.

Bear in mind this was from a study eight years ago too. The bias has grown significantly since the Brexit referendum:

 

"CONCLUSIONS

This quantitative analysis of think-tank citations and the use of “health warnings” is consistent with existing evidence that the BBC exhibits a
left-of-centre slant in its online reporting (further analysis of this issue could extend these techniques to examine television and radio coverage).

Although the effects measured may seem trivial at first glance (who, apart from the think- tanks themselves, really cares if the IPPR is
more likely to be referred to as “independent” than the Centre for Policy Studies?), they could be indicative of a wider problem in areas of
reporting where slant is harder to measure.

And this is surely an issue which the BBC should take seriously. A good starting point would be for the BBC to follow up its recent
study on the breadth of its coverage of different views on Europe, immigration and religion with another that examines the issue of
breadth of coverage more generally and also looks at whether the BBC is sufficiently impartial in its introduction and comment on
these different viewpoints. Should impartiality just mean having opposing views represented? Or should it also take account of how these
views are introduced?

With this in mind the BBC should take steps to implement the recommendations of the BBC Trust report. In addition, the BBC should follow
up its previous study with a more wide-ranging investigation that looks at both the level of coverage given to voices from across the
political spectrum, and also the manner in which these voices are presented. The BBC should ask itself two questions: is it prepared
to admit the possibility of the existence of an institutionally left-of-centre bias? If so, how will the new Director of News, James Harding,
respond to the challenge this implies?"

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by LV-426

[Duke Wellington]

24 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Seriously?

They almost single-handedly led relentless campaigns against Johnson and other Ministers on everything from Jennifer Arcuri and the highly comical "Wallpapergate", through to PPI procurement, Dominic Cummings and David Cameron's lobbying antics!

Bear in mind that I do watch the BBC, as well as other news outlets, and I don't consider myself either left or right wing.

Some of the criticism the government receives is warranted, some isn't.

It isn't the responsibility of a state-funded organization to place that criticism though. It's their responsibility to present the facts impartially and let the audience decide.

Do you have any evidence of this to share, or are you joining the ranks of the UM conspiracist fruitcakes?

I try to give your opinions due consideration, as previously we've shared similar views on subjects such as religion, and you've presented your arguments well.

Do I seriously need to point out just how racist your remarks are though?

The term racism is thrown around far too readily these days, but in this case it is absolutely appropriate.

Don't you consider it ironic that someone who regularly espouses fairly radical left-wing ideals, on a wide range of topics, can just fire off a contemptful "how pathetic the English population really is" shot?

How about pointing to the Mark Twain quote in my profile regarding "generalizations"?

You really need to take a step back and ask yourself whether you've become the very thing you proclaim to despise...

I have often wondered if these people are divorced from reality.

I think I stumbled across something last week that might confirm it. Internet algorithms. His search engine knows he is far left so when he looks for items on the internet it is bringing up someone incredibility far fetched articles. He has become convinced they are reality.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

57 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

 

Seriously?

 

They almost single-handedly led relentless campaigns against Johnson and other Ministers on everything from Jennifer Arcuri and the highly comical "Wallpapergate", through to PPI procurement, Dominic Cummings and David Cameron's lobbying antics!

 

Bear in mind that I do watch the BBC, as well as other news outlets, and I don't consider myself either left or right wing.

Some of the criticism the government receives is warranted, some isn't.

It isn't the responsibility of a state-funded organization to place that criticism though. It's their responsibility to present the facts impartially and let the audience decide.

 

 

Do you have any evidence of this to share, or are you joining the ranks of the UM conspiracist fruitcakes?

 

 

I try to give your opinions due consideration, as previously we've shared similar views on subjects such as religion, and you've presented your arguments well.

Do I seriously need to point out just how racist your remarks are though?

The term racism is thrown around far too readily these days, but in this case it is absolutely appropriate.

 

Don't you consider it ironic that someone who regularly espouses fairly radical left-wing ideals, on a wide range of topics, can just fire off a contemptful "how pathetic the English population really is" shot?

How about pointing to the Mark Twain quote in my profile regarding "generalizations"?

 

You really need to take a step back and ask yourself whether you've become the very thing you proclaim to despise...

You missed the bit where I said I was English. I think living in and watching the English for 50 years makes claims of rascism against the English untenable. My analysis is based on group behaviour and long standing deference to elites which is repeatedly shown in voting patterns.

 

Br cornelius

[L.A.T.1961]

16 hours ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Anyone who advocates WTO is demonstrating they know nothing about international trade! Nothing! Just Google WTO and try to understand why nations need trade agreements. It is so frustrating trying to argue with stupid.

I have to ask if WTO is so bad why are there so many members and why is it even still in existence.

Here is a list of the 164 members and a map showing where they are. 

Maybe you should drop them a line, tell them they are all daft and know nothing about trade. 

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org6_e.htm