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LightAngel

Kindness

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LightAngel
12 hours ago, iridescence said:

So I encourage kindness no matter the outcome. 

 

Just don't let anyone walk all over you!

If you want to remain a happy and balanced person, then you have to protect yourself against other people's jealousy, etc.

 

 

a5a70445eb6fe52f8ae4232d9e1aacb6--siberi

 

 

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joc
On 12/27/2019 at 11:21 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

It's mildly tragic that I have to put it that way - what one can get from it. But that's how low human society has fallen already. 

I know what you are saying...

....so, just a minor correction, but also a major point... :)

Human society hasn't fallen.  Human society has always been a dysfunctional mess.   There is no point in the history of humans that suggests otherwise.  Society is dysfunctional because humans are dysfunctional.  Humans are dysfunctional because they are human.  The only way to overcome the dysfunctional human condition is to evolve our way out of it...but it doesn't seem like that is happening.  Despite all the gurus of millennia telling us how we should live...be kind...etc., it remains a person to person construct.  The Human Race is not evolving apparently.  But...then again...evolution is a long, long process.  I think though the prognosis is that we will destroy ourselves before we can evolve our way out of destroying ourselves.  In the meantime...

This:

On 12/26/2019 at 11:51 PM, LightAngel said:

I think the most important part of communication is to be a good listener. 

Good communication skills require that you care about others and that you have a high level of self-awareness at the same time.

The more we listen, the more we can also read between the lines!

 

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Bendy Demon
17 minutes ago, joc said:

Human society has always been a dysfunctional mess. 

I don't think so. When we had actual rules, codes of conduct and actually demanded certain behaviors from our kids and society in general we didn't have nearly the same issues as we do now.

No society is perfect because perfect does not exist but we can do better, we just don't like the idea that in order to have a functioning society then there needs to be rules, regulations and limits put on our behavior.

Kind of a 'Equivalent Exchange' philosophy, if you want to gain or achieve something then you need to put in the effort too to initiate and maintain that.

12 minutes ago, joc said:

Humans are dysfunctional because they are human. 

No. Humans are dysfunctional because, as a whole, we have consistently allowed dysfunctional, abusive, narcissistic, sociopathic and overly anti-social behavior to persist. We abandoned the idea of enforcing a basic code of social conduct because we're all about 'freedom'.

Our society could be loads better if we insist, from an early age, how to behave and to have certain expectations on how to conduct ourselves and how to monitor and control ourselves rather than allowing ourselves to just run with the slightest impulse that crosses our minds.

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Helen of Annoy
27 minutes ago, joc said:

I know what you are saying...

....so, just a minor correction, but also a major point... :)

Human society hasn't fallen.  Human society has always been a dysfunctional mess.   There is no point in the history of humans that suggests otherwise.  Society is dysfunctional because humans are dysfunctional.  Humans are dysfunctional because they are human.  The only way to overcome the dysfunctional human condition is to evolve our way out of it...but it doesn't seem like that is happening.  Despite all the gurus of millennia telling us how we should live...be kind...etc., it remains a person to person construct.  The Human Race is not evolving apparently.  But...then again...evolution is a long, long process.  I think though the prognosis is that we will destroy ourselves before we can evolve our way out of destroying ourselves.  In the meantime...

This:

 

I'm a bit more optimistic. We - the human race - destroy our civilisation every once in a while. Maybe not world-wide at the same time, but on a continental scale. Will we destroy the world as we know it? We already did. The last thread on which we hang could snap any moment. And those who are trying to pull us back up are outnumbered by those lied into belief that they can fly. Alone. 

Is that the end of human race? Of course not. But I'd miss modern technology. 

And what will rebuild the civilisation? Kindness. In the areas where people will selfishly pillage, finally 'liberated' from any semblance of functional society diseases will wipe everyone out. Only the areas where kindness is still taught by example people will be able to work together, which means survival. 

 

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Bendy Demon

Sadly any examples that display the virtues of kindness, civility, decency and morality has become a rare and coveted treasure.

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joc
7 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

I don't think so. When we had actual rules, codes of conduct and actually demanded certain behaviors from our kids and society in general we didn't have nearly the same issues as we do now.

We still have rules, we still have codes of conduct, and most of us do actually demand certain behaviors from our kids.  Name a time when we haven't had the same issues as we do now...and what are these issues you speak of?  Murder...  Rape...  Child abuse... 

What we didn't have in times past was a Media forum where everything that happens anywhere is known at once by everyone.  Humans are dysfunctional...and so...society is dysfunctional.  

11 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

No society is perfect because perfect does not exist but we can do better, we just don't like the idea that in order to have a functioning society then there needs to be rules, regulations and limits put on our behavior.

But we do have rules, regulations, and limits...and we always have...and there has always been those who disregard them...nothing has changed...not really. Societies are more complex now...so the issues facing them are more complex...but the key element is the individual..some are good...some are not.  It has never been anything else.

 

14 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

No. Humans are dysfunctional because, as a whole, we have consistently allowed dysfunctional, abusive, narcissistic, sociopathic and overly anti-social behavior to persist. We abandoned the idea of enforcing a basic code of social conduct because we're all about 'freedom'.

So then, if humans are dysfunctional because we allow dysfunctional behavior to exist...then the solution is what?  Kill all the bad people?  Been there done that.  We still have laws, we still enforce them, there are still bad people. Maybe not as many bad people...hence the complexity of society.

 

18 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Our society could be loads better if we insist, from an early age, how to behave and to have certain expectations on how to conduct ourselves and how to monitor and control ourselves rather than allowing ourselves to just run with the slightest impulse that crosses our minds.

Most of us already do that.

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joc
9 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm a bit more optimistic. We - the human race - destroy our civilisation every once in a while. Maybe not world-wide at the same time, but on a continental scale. Will we destroy the world as we know it? We already did. The last thread on which we hang could snap any moment. And those who are trying to pull us back up are outnumbered by those lied into belief that they can fly. Alone. 

Is that the end of human race? Of course not. But I'd miss modern technology. 

And what will rebuild the civilisation? Kindness. In the areas where people will selfishly pillage, finally 'liberated' from any semblance of functional society diseases will wipe everyone out. Only the areas where kindness is still taught by example people will be able to work together, which means survival. 

 

And so we rebuild....what exactly?  A society that isn't dysfunctional?  I think that story played out well with Noah and the flood didn't it?  

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joc
3 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Sadly any examples that display the virtues of kindness, civility, decency and morality has become a rare and coveted treasure.

I think most people are kind in their own way.  People have personal problems...we all do...some more than others.  Humans are dysfunctional...if we weren't...there wouldn't even be a thread like this.  And, btw...this thread isn't an avenue to  better society...rather, an avenue to a better personal experience by those who choose to be a certain way.  A...how to be a better person and live in peace with your own self and with those around you...in short...how to be 'less dysfunctional' in our thoughts and actions.

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Helen of Annoy
5 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Sadly any examples that display the virtues of kindness, civility, decency and morality has become a rare and coveted treasure.

True, but virtues weren't eradicated yet.

It's almost funny that most people (in my environment) respond wonderfully to kindness. A bit surprised, then all eager to make things work on non-hostile basis. For an hour or two :D 

As you pointed out earlier, dysfunctional behaviour is allowed today. Which made it instantly rewarding and that's what people can't resist: an instant reward. No one told them about consequences.  

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spartan max2
29 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

I don't think so. When we had actual rules, codes of conduct and actually demanded certain behaviors from our kids and society in general we didn't have nearly the same issues as we do now.

No society is perfect because perfect does not exist but we can do better, we just don't like the idea that in order to have a functioning society then there needs to be rules, regulations and limits put on our behavior.

 

I have to strongly disagree there.

Give me an example of any point in history where society was radically better?

A firm grasp of history shows problems throughout all of time. Not romanticism. 

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Helen of Annoy
9 minutes ago, joc said:

And so we rebuild....what exactly?  A society that isn't dysfunctional?  I think that story played out well with Noah and the flood didn't it?  

There are functional societies in this world. Not perfect, but functional. They don't cross your mind because they're not in the news all the time. Since they're functional. 

Besides, there's been quite a number of society implosions since Noah. I'd say it's more an expected end of an empire, than an aberration. 

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spartan max2

Also, the whole idea that society does not have a strict or strong enough expected code of behavior seems odd to me. 

Humans have had codes since before the Code of Hammurabi.

Do we really want society pressuring us to act certain ways with acceptable sets of behavior.

Is that not what the Catholic Church did and puritian society? Is the whole point of things like feminism not to erase social rules and norms for men and women?

Do we want everyone to have to go through a shallow display of gift giving, bowing, and respect giving when meeting each other?

Should our parents chose who we marry? Is it wrong to be gay? Should women not work and be the caretaker?

Forced codes by society always lead to harm. 

In my opinion, the more we break down social rules the better.

 

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Helen of Annoy
15 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Also, the whole idea that society does not have a strict or strong enough expected code of behavior seems odd to me. 

Humans have had codes since before the Code of Hammurabi.

Do we really want society pressuring us to act certain ways with acceptable sets of behavior.

Is that not what the Catholic Church did and puritian society? Is the whole point of things like feminism not to erase social rules and norms for men and women?

Do we want everyone to have to go through a shallow display of gift giving, bowing, and respect giving when meeting each other?

Should our parents chose who we marry? Is it wrong to be gay? Should women not work and be the caretaker?

Forced codes by society always lead to harm. 

In my opinion, the more we break down social rules the better.

 

Aaaaaand you went to the other extreme. 

Hypocrisy is on the opposite side of kindness. A society may degenerate - it often does, the examples you give are all valid - into superficial show of morality with thoroughly rotten core.

But a sane society does not insist on form without substance. 

While no society means that average people will soon starve, contract disease and die without hospitals. Because you can't have hospitals if you have no society. No, seriously. There's a whole net of communal services needed for a hospital to function, not to mention educational system and these are not available if an average person is let to freely decide which side of the road they'll drive on today.     

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joc
30 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

There are functional societies in this world. Not perfect, but functional. They don't cross your mind because they're not in the news all the time. Since they're functional. 

Besides, there's been quite a number of society implosions since Noah. I'd say it's more an expected end of an empire, than an aberration. 

Why does the phrase...not perfect...keep popping up?  Societies are dysfunctional because families are dysfunctional and families are dysfunctional because the human condition is dysfunctional.  We can only change the dysfunctional aspects of our own selves.  We can become less dysfunctional by seeing other people as worthy as we see ourselves.

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spartan max2
1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Aaaaaand you went to the other extreme. 

Hypocrisy is on the opposite side of kindness. A society may degenerate - it often does, the examples you give are all valid - into superficial show of morality with thoroughly rotten core.

But a sane society does not insist on form without substance. 

While no society means that average people will soon starve, contract disease and die without hospitals. Because you can't have hospitals if you have no society. No, seriously. There's a whole net of communal services needed for a hospital to function, not to mention educational system and these are not available if an average person is let to freely decide which side of the road they'll drive on today.     

I'm confused now, we might be on different pages.

It sounds like you're talking about laws. I was talking more about social norms and unspoken rules effect on morality, in society.

I thought that argument was that society needs stronger social norms and unspoken rules to be more moral?

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Helen of Annoy
9 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I'm confused now, we might be on different pages.

It sounds like you're talking about laws. I was talking more about social norms and unspoken rules effect on morality, in society.

I thought that argument was that society needs stronger social norms and unspoken rules to be more moral?

Oh, the moral. As in who wears what and sleeps with whom... certainly, whoever wants whatever. I think we agree there. The less society prescribes, the better. 

But I think that society has to keep insisting on social norms that are in fact important. For example, lying. 

It used to be shameful to be caught lying. Unlike someone's taste in clothes, the relax attitude toward lying is actually very efficiently undermining economies, for example, which is guaranteed to crash the society too. 

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Helen of Annoy
25 minutes ago, joc said:

Why does the phrase...not perfect...keep popping up?  Societies are dysfunctional because families are dysfunctional and families are dysfunctional because the human condition is dysfunctional.  We can only change the dysfunctional aspects of our own selves.  We can become less dysfunctional by seeing other people as worthy as we see ourselves.

Well, that's easy if you like someone. And near impossible when you dislike someone :lol: 

 

Nothing's ever perfect. Especially not people. 

It's true that humans were dysfunctional since the dawn of time, but I think that we can also agree there were many cycles through history and around the world, with dysfunctional ups and downs. I'd say there's visible decline in recent years in our society. It's not shameful anymore to lie, steal, cheat... only fools are sticking to some outdated codes of conduct.

It shouldn't be forced, it should be natural for an average person to not wish harm upon others and to always help if possible. 

But it's apparently not natural today, as it was just few decades ago. People didn't change that much in such short time. People remain who they are, easily tricked into following the latest fashion. Being an selfish ******* is the latest fashion. That can be changed. But it won't, since selfishness is ideal for consumerism.  

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Bendy Demon
1 hour ago, joc said:

So then, if humans are dysfunctional because we allow dysfunctional behavior to exist...then the solution is what?  Kill all the bad people?

Please don't pull that garbage with me. I'm not some high schooler here so don't talk to me as if I were one.

The solution is easy..demand behavior, sop cowering in the corner and let someone know when their behavior is disruptive and obnoxious. It needs to be done with people of all ages, not just children. Come to think of it, we stopped demanding behavior and correcting children long ago because it might 'hurt their widdle feelings' and damage them for life. THAT is precisely one of the things that makes us and our society weak.

49 minutes ago, joc said:

Societies are dysfunctional because families are dysfunctional and families are dysfunctional because the human condition is dysfunctional.  We can only change the dysfunctional aspects of our own selves

Humans are not dysfunctional. We allow dysfunctionality by not holding ourselves and others accountable for abusive, arrogant and sociopathic behavior.

The bolded part: this is what I was trying to convey, if we want change then we need to get back to making ourselves behave like educated, well-bred and civilized members of society, not some 'anything goes' society.

1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

Forced codes by society always lead to harm. 

In my opinion, the more we break down social rules the better.

Didn't say anything about force;  the breakdown of social rules is the reason we have all these problems. Letting people run around, pooping in the streets, shooting up a mall because they don't like someone or burning down homes and churches because they are 'offended are all symptoms of a society that is too cowardly to bring it out into the open and make it clear that there is going to be very little coddling for idiots have the gall to rationalize their behavior because "they don't like" this person/group or another.

No more special rules and laws, you either abide by the basics of expected social behavior and observe the laws or you face consequences. It's really simple.

It's like children, if you demand and expect certain behaviors from them then, despite their complaining,  they will be much better off for it and as a result we all will be better off for it.

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Bendy Demon
12 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It shouldn't be forced, it should be natural for an average person to not wish harm upon others and to always help if possible. 

Yes, I agree, it should be natural but also expected

However one needs to just take a step back, remove your emotions from it and really take a good  look at what we have allowed our society to degenerate to.

We talk about 'freedom' and turn a constant blind eye to glaring problems because we don't want to 'infringe' on anyones 'rights'. You can think whatever vicious and hateful thoughts you want but you should keep it to yourself and you shouldn't be 'free' to act on it.

We have, for decades, allowed dysfunctional behavior, not only have we allowed it but we have glorified and encouraged it as some sort of virtue.

I try not to be an old fogey here but when I look at television, for example, I cringed when I seen increasing amounts of shows where the children were less and less cute or endearing but increasingly belligerent, smart-mouthed and vindictive. Once in awhile was one thing but these behaviors are touted as 'desirable'. Yes, I know tv is fantasy but when the airwaves are cluttered with this stuff then it presents a clear indication of what we allow in our society.

I am not blaming media or technology but it is literally holding up a mirror to us, reflecting back our so-called 'values'

..I'm tired and don't really wish to argue so I might check back later.

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spartan max2
8 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Please don't pull that garbage with me. I'm not some high schooler here so don't talk to me as if I were one.

The solution is easy..demand behavior, sop cowering in the corner and let someone know when their behavior is disruptive and obnoxious. It needs to be done with people of all ages, not just children. Come to think of it, we stopped demanding behavior and correcting children long ago because it might 'hurt their widdle feelings' and damage them for life. THAT is precisely one of the things that makes us and our society weak.

The bolded part: this is what I was trying to convey, if we want change then we need to get back to making ourselves behave like educated, well-bred and civilized members of society, not some 'anything goes' society.

Didn't say anything about force AND the breakdown of social rules is the reason we have all these problems. Letting people run around, pooping in the streets, shooting up a mall because they don't like someone or burning down homes and churches because they are 'offended are all symptoms of a society that is too cowardly to bring it out into the open and make it clear that there is going to be very little coddling for idiots have the gall to rationalize their behavior because "they don't like" this person/group or another.

No more special rules and laws, you either abide by the basics of expected social behavior and observe the laws or you face consequences. It's really simple.

It's like children, if you demand and expect certain behaviors from them then, despite their complaining,  they will be much better off for it and as a result we all will be better off for it.

It just sounds like "good old days" syndrome.

People are no worse then in the past. In fact I would say better.

In the past people literally burned crosses in yards and Lynch mobbed for race. Shooting have always happened. People have always been homeless and Dick's.

I see no evidence that people are worse now then in the past.

People seem more accepting now then before.

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Helen of Annoy
6 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Yes, I agree, it should be natural but also expected

However one needs to just take a step back, remove your emotions from it and really take a good  look at what we have allowed our society to degenerate to.

We talk about 'freedom' and turn a constant blind eye to glaring problems because we don't want to 'infringe' on anyones 'rights'. You can think whatever vicious and hateful thoughts you want but you should keep it to yourself and you shouldn't be 'free' to act on it.

We have, for decades, allowed dysfunctional behavior, not only have we allowed it but we have glorified and encouraged it as some sort of virtue.

I try not to be an old fogey here but when I look at television, for example, I cringed when I seen increasing amounts of shows where the children were less and less cute or endearing but increasingly belligerent, smart-mouthed and vindictive. Once in awhile was one thing but these behaviors are touted as 'desirable'. Yes, I know tv is fantasy but when the airwaves are cluttered with this stuff then it presents a clear indication of what we allow in our society.

I am not blaming media or technology but it is literally holding up a mirror to us, reflecting back our so-called 'values'

..I'm tired and don't really wish to argue so I might check back later.

I am blaming media. People tend to imitate shows in real life, tend to adjust first their mannerisms and then they whole behaviour after the fantasies they see in the media. It's especially morbidly funny when they imitate 'reality' shows or quote events from those as some sort of an excuse or an argument in the actual real life. 

 

Do drop by later, no one is going to argue in a thread about kindness, right? :D 

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Bendy Demon
3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I am blaming media

Sorry..I should have just said 'I am not blaming technology'.

Technology is a tool to display media and much of that media content is a reflection of what we supposedly value however it is almost like the 'chicken and the egg' thing. Media is a reflection of our society's values, our 'values' bleed into our media and, like you said, ends up perpetuating these 'values' and eventually, because we are so inundated with this on all sides, our society starts to think this is 'normal'.

14 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

People seem more accepting now then before.

More accepting of what? Violent behavior? Bullying? Criminal acts? Disregard for people, safety and property? Abuse of all kinds? Disruptive behavior?

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spartan max2
7 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

More accepting of what? Violent behavior? Bullying? Criminal acts? Disregard for people, safety and property? Abuse of all kinds? Disruptive behavior?

Race, sexuality, religion or lack their of, the acceptance of mental illness and the conditions around it (autism, ADHD, depression, etc).

More people accept therapy as a real thing and no longer see people as weaker for using it.

Domestic abuse is no longer considered a families private business. It's talked about constantly and people are educated on the warning signs. Same with child abuse, elder abuse.

Also, did people not bully in the past? Lol. In the past it was normal to dunk people's heads into the toilet. Now we try to have campgines against bullying.

As for your other stuff, statistically the crime rate has dropped in the last couple decades. 

No actual proof of people being worse now then in the past.

Edited by spartan max2

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joc
1 hour ago, Bendy Demon said:

No. Humans are dysfunctional because, as a whole, we have consistently allowed dysfunctional, abusive, narcissistic, sociopathic and overly anti-social behavior to persist. We abandoned the idea of enforcing a basic code of social conduct because we're all about 'freedom'.

 

12 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:
1 hour ago, joc said:

So then, if humans are dysfunctional because we allow dysfunctional behavior to exist...then the solution is what?  Kill all the bad people?

Please don't pull that garbage with me. I'm not some high schooler here so don't talk to me as if I were one.

The truth is...we as humans...as a condition of being human are dysfunctional.  You don't agree...so let me explain my point of view...

  We humans in our own little individualistic worlds are completely dysfunctional.  We are all (well most of us)  taught not to lie for example.  I have never met a human being that didn't lie.  We have codes of conduct.  We have laws on the books.  And we enforce them.  Prisons across the country are full of men and women who went afoul of those laws. 

So...you say we have consistently allowed abusive, narcissitic, sociopathic and overly anti-social behavior to persist.  You said that we abandoned enforcing social conduct because we were all about 'freedom'.  Social Conduct.  What is it really?  Who sets the rules of Society?  The Elite set the rules for societal conduct.  How can you enforce a societal code against narcissism, or sociopathy?  There are narcisisstic people out there.  There are sociopaths out there.  What do we do with them...kill them?  I am not being condescending...I am making a point.  These people are dysfunctional because they are human...and there is nothing that anyone can do to change them.  So, do we blame the parents?  Should we hold parents responsible for their grown offspring's dysunctionality? The greater point is that we are all dysfunctional in some way.   

Break down of society is inevitable because it is a society of human beings.  To say we are not dysfunctional as a species ...is really to say...  'I' am not dysfunctional.  

Recognizing our own dysfunctional self is important in recognizing the dysfunctionality in others.  It shouldn't matter that someone is dysfunctional in this way or that...a smile still makes their day!  

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joc
48 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It's true that humans were dysfunctional since the dawn of time

Thank you for agreeing with me finally!

:)

 

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