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Jodie.Lynne

The Shoe is on the other Foot

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Jodie.Lynne

OK kids, @Sherapy has spurred my memory, and this is the result.

 

As a thought exercise in objective thinking, lets play a little game.

The rules are simple: State why you believe what you believe. Only there is a small catch: You have to argue the point from the opposite viewpoint.

i.e., if you are a non-believer, assume the position of a believer. If a believer, state your position as that of a non-believer.

I only ask that if you participate, you actually frame your statements as you imagine the opposite view believes. NO caricatures of opposition, no spurious arguments. Please take the time to rationally express your beliefs (in regards to this particular thread) as sincerely as you espouse your own true beliefs.

I double dog dare you! :)

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
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Habitat

This must be a thread for lawyers, who argue the opposite to what they really think, every day.

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Hankenhunter

Not a chance. Lol, I'm too stuffed and baked too partake in this, though I will be following it with great interest. I may even chime in later. 

Edited by Hankenhunter
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SoWhatNow

There is no god.

Please consider the following:

  •  All understanding of god is purely subjective and there is no objective evidence for its existance.
  •  There is currently no two way communication with god. Only hearsay I.e. My pastor says, the ancient texts say, the oral tradition says, I believe he or it is trying to tell me...
  •  Most ancient texts contain such violence that even if it was real I would not want to worship it.
  •  Organised religion is so corrupt and toxic that it puts me off.
  •  God has never told me anything personally.
  •  I gained my original faith from my culture, or my social environment or my parents. If this did not happen I would have had another faith or none at all.
  •  Prayer is as effective as random chance in producing real results.
  •  I am biased towards a belief that would prolong my life or save my loved ones that have passed on and subjectively seek confirmation for god.

 

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Hankenhunter

Short version,

       Me; I am convinced, through many years of on and off again research, that big foot does not exist.

    My rebuttle; Well, if you looked up more often, instead of watching where you're going,  you would have had a 50% more probability of seeing one.

     Me; *jaw drops*

   

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Paranoid Android

@Jodie.Lynne @Sherapy - iirc, this was one of my threads from way back in the day. Don't worry, you can't copyright ideas, lol. I'm chuffed that people remembered it, I think it's a great thought experiment. 

In any case, you asked me for what I "believe". That's the wrong way to begin a question like this. I don't "believe" anything. Rational thinking and science shows what is there and what is not. If it weren't for religion that still perpetuates the god-story the prevalence of belief in god would be dramatically different. Some might still believe their own fairy stories in a non-dogmatic religious way, and fair crack of the whip if it brings them comfort, but I prefer facts and I think eventually most people will too. Science has never shown us anything to suggest that there's some all powerful Force controlling everything (to use a phrase) and so "believing" that such a being exists makes no logical sense. 

That's not a bad thing. Don't "feel sorry for me", like I've got nothing to look forward to. I know some believers will think how tragic it is that this is all there is and then *poof* we're gone. But my science-based view on life has its own beauty. If a believer wakes up in the morning to the most beautiful sunrise he/she has ever seen, it might break their heart with beauty but in the back of their head is a voice saying "look how beautiful that is, think how much more beautiful heaven is going to be", and I think that takes at least a tiny bit of gloss off the sunrise. I look at that same beautiful sunrise and my heart breaks and I just absorb it in totality thinking "this might be the most beautiful sunrise I will EVER get to see". And because life is transitory it will always be just a little bit more beautiful.  

If I'm wrong, those beautiful sunrises won't mean much to me then. But I don't think I'm wrong. Hope that helps with your question :tu: 

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Paranoid Android
7 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

.....NO caricatures of opposition.....

 

6 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Short version,

       Me; I am convinced, through many years of on and off again research, that big foot does not exist.

    My rebuttle; Well, if you looked up more often, instead of watching where you're going,  you would have had a 50% more probability of seeing one.

     Me; *jaw drops*

   

Well that didn't take long to get here......

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Hankenhunter
23 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

 

Well that didn't take long to get here......

Oops. My apologies. I blame the turkey. 

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psyche101
7 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

OK kids, @Sherapy has spurred my memory, and this is the result.

 

As a thought exercise in objective thinking, lets play a little game.

The rules are simple: State why you believe what you believe. Only there is a small catch: You have to argue the point from the opposite viewpoint.

i.e., if you are a non-believer, assume the position of a believer. If a believer, state your position as that of a non-believer.

I only ask that if you participate, you actually frame your statements as you imagine the opposite view believes. NO caricatures of opposition, no spurious arguments. Please take the time to rationally express your beliefs (in regards to this particular thread) as sincerely as you espouse your own true beliefs.

I double dog dare you! :)

What do agnostic posters do?

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XenoFish

From a believer perspective I can see that spirituality can give meaning and religion giving the sense of structure and order in life. Along with prayer being therapeutic, self affirming as well. 

Now that I think about it. If I hadn't had such a negative experience with Christianity as a kid. I might be one, or a pseudo-christian. Because I couldn't handle the strictness of it. More an eclectic christian I guess. 

Edited by XenoFish
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Paranoid Android

  

20 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Oops. My apologies. I blame the turkey. 

:lol: Fair enough. My girlfriend's in-laws are Chinese so we had hot pot for Christmas lunch this year, so no huge food coma for me, lol. 

 

7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

What do agnostic posters do?

I'm sure you're being sarcastic. But being a thought experiment I'd assume it didn't matter which side an agnostic took, as long as it is different to what they currently believe. Last time I participated in a thread like this I responded as if I were a Buddhist, I think. Consciously allowing yourself to think things through differently with a mindset that you wouldn't normally entertain can be a tremendous growth experience.

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psyche101
1 minute ago, Paranoid Android said:

  

:lol: Fair enough. My girlfriend's in-laws are Chinese so we had hot pot for Christmas lunch this year, so no huge food coma for me, lol. 

 

I'm sure you're being sarcastic. But being a thought experiment I'd assume it didn't matter which side an agnostic took, as long as it is different to what they currently believe. Last time I participated in a thread like this I responded as if I were a Buddhist, I think. Consciously allowing yourself to think things through differently with a mindset that you wouldn't normally entertain can be a tremendous growth experience.

It was actually just the first thought in my head.

It would be pretty funny to watch wouldn't it?

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eight bits
31 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

What do agnostic posters do?

Post twice. Once as a theist and once as an atheist.

Subject to my having a brain storm in either direction:

Atheist: probably something like @Tiggs - my words, not his - after actually investigating scads of god claims, each and every one of them falling short, way short, then until and unless some really promising claim comes along, something genuinely new to me, then I've done due diligence already. Put me down for no on the question of God.

Runner up: Hitchens' razor: what can be proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It's a runner up for this thread because an agnostic could use that argument for postponing a finding, whereas an atheist actually makes a finding against theism. The atheist would need to tune up the verb Hitchens used, dismissed, and body-English it up to rejected. The razor loses some of its edge when you do that, maybe it dulls out entirely, but t's a damned good argument, IMO, and I know some people do use the rejection form of it.

Theist is harder for me. The usual theist position favors a particular deity or pantheon, rather than just any old god, so long as there is one. Obviously, if Wotan shows up with a keg and proposes that we talk, I'm going to say no? (Actually, I'm sort of hoping that if there is a god, then it turns out to be somebody like Wotan, but maybe Irish :) ).

It may very well be the case that I simply wouldn't be a theist unless I had had some conversion experience (which I haven't IRL), and then my argument would be the authenticity and reliability of that experience as a guide to truth. I probably would also need, in addition to the basic argument, good answers to objections (e.g. How many drinks did you and Wotan have?).

 

Edited by eight bits
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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

Believer: Look at the trees.

Non-believer: Look at the tree fossils.

:innocent:

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Jodie.Lynne

"Why do you believe in Our Lord, Christ Jesus?" you ask, and although I detect a mocking attitude in the way you ask, I am compelled to give my reasons.

Hope. It gives me hope that I am a worthy person, even though I have done and said things that are hurtful to others, through the sacrifice of Jesus' life, I am forgiven my sins and my trespasses. And I am given the opportunity to atone for my misdeeds and sins, through the love of G-d.

Comfort. In the midst of sorrow, pain, and loneliness, I know, in my heart, that there is One who loves me, and watches over me, in times of plenty and those of scarcity. In times of grief, even though I mourn the passing of my loved ones, I am comforted that they are in a better place, free from pain and suffering.

Peace of Mind. No matter how tumultuous the times, or how chaotic the world seems to be, I know that there is a reason for the chaos, and that in the end, all will be according to His plan. And that the truly wicked and evil, who seem to escape earthly justice, will not be able to escape the final judgement of He who can see into every heart.

Compassion. Jesus walked among the lepers, mingled with and preached to the undesirables. The tax collectors, the beggars and the prostitutes. He showed that just having a high status was no guarantee of righteousness, that ALL are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven. By His example, we are compelled to help the less fortunate, for they, like myself, are G-d's children.

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Habitat
16 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

"Why do you believe in Our Lord, Christ Jesus?" you ask, and although I detect a mocking attitude in the way you ask, I am compelled to give my reasons.

Hope. It gives me hope that I am a worthy person, even though I have done and said things that are hurtful to others, through the sacrifice of Jesus' life, I am forgiven my sins and my trespasses. And I am given the opportunity to atone for my misdeeds and sins, through the love of G-d.

Comfort. In the midst of sorrow, pain, and loneliness, I know, in my heart, that there is One who loves me, and watches over me, in times of plenty and those of scarcity. In times of grief, even though I mourn the passing of my loved ones, I am comforted that they are in a better place, free from pain and suffering.

Peace of Mind. No matter how tumultuous the times, or how chaotic the world seems to be, I know that there is a reason for the chaos, and that in the end, all will be according to His plan. And that the truly wicked and evil, who seem to escape earthly justice, will not be able to escape the final judgement of He who can see into every heart.

Compassion. Jesus walked among the lepers, mingled with and preached to the undesirables. The tax collectors, the beggars and the prostitutes. He showed that just having a high status was no guarantee of righteousness, that ALL are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven. By His example, we are compelled to help the less fortunate, for they, like myself, are G-d's children.

Sorry, but no-one that "adores" the Lord Jesus is going to use "G-d"

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eight bits
12 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Sorry, but no-one that "adores" the Lord Jesus is going to use "G-d"

Then again, Jesus himself might. It being mainly a Jewish usage, and what with him being Jewish and all.

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Habitat
Just now, eight bits said:

Then again, Jesus himself might. It being mainly a Jewish usage, and what with him being Jewish and all.

This was supposedly a testimonial by Jodie, of her own outlook, but which seems to have given away her being Jewish, by that usage, rather than being a thrall of that chap you say may not have even existed ! :)

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
26 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Then again, Jesus himself might. It being mainly a Jewish usage, and what with him being Jewish and all.

Wouldn't Jesus have used the name Yahweh for God?

In fact he wouldn't even be named Jesus, he would have been named Yeshua. Jesus comes from the latin Iesus, which comes from the Greek Iesous, which comes from the Hebrew Yeshua. 

I wonder how he feels about people using the wrong name all the time ? 

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
Edit: This is not really aimed at you, because I'm confident you allready knows this.
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Piney
41 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Sorry, but no-one that "adores" the Lord Jesus is going to use "G-d"

Quite a few small American revival churches do, along with Yahweh. 

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Habitat
7 minutes ago, Piney said:

Quite a few small American revival churches do, along with Yahweh. 

Go tell spellcheck about it, it does not recognize G-d as a word ! It is a Jewish practice, first and foremost.

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

"Why do you believe in Our Lord, Christ Jesus?" you ask, and although I detect a mocking attitude in the way you ask, I am compelled to give my reasons.

Hope. It gives me hope that I am a worthy person, even though I have done and said things that are hurtful to others, through the sacrifice of Jesus' life, I am forgiven my sins and my trespasses. And I am given the opportunity to atone for my misdeeds and sins, through the love of G-d.

Comfort. In the midst of sorrow, pain, and loneliness, I know, in my heart, that there is One who loves me, and watches over me, in times of plenty and those of scarcity. In times of grief, even though I mourn the passing of my loved ones, I am comforted that they are in a better place, free from pain and suffering.

Peace of Mind. No matter how tumultuous the times, or how chaotic the world seems to be, I know that there is a reason for the chaos, and that in the end, all will be according to His plan. And that the truly wicked and evil, who seem to escape earthly justice, will not be able to escape the final judgement of He who can see into every heart.

Compassion. Jesus walked among the lepers, mingled with and preached to the undesirables. The tax collectors, the beggars and the prostitutes. He showed that just having a high status was no guarantee of righteousness, that ALL are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven. By His example, we are compelled to help the less fortunate, for they, like myself, are G-d's children.

This right here is what I look for when I ask people why they believe. I don't need "god is real" or "you're not wise/enlightened enough", blah, blah, blah, just a basic why.

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Piney
Just now, Habitat said:

Go tell spellcheck about it, it does not recognize G-d as a word ! It is a Jewish practice, first and foremost.

And a American crackpot practice, second and last. :yes:

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Piney said:

And a American crackpot practice, second and last. :yes:

I wouldn't argue against that.

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Jodie.Lynne
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

And a American crackpot practice, second and last. :yes:

The reason I wrote it as 'G-d", is because I've met some very devout people who told me that they feel that writing out 'G-o-d" is like taking 'the Lord's name in vain'. And, unless in church, will even whisper the word, as if it is some sort of blasphemy to say it aloud.

I was merely trying to uphold the standard I set in my OP, about being sincere in defending the opposite viewpoint. I apologize if it offended anyone.

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