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Jodie.Lynne

The Shoe is on the other Foot

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

@Jodie.LynneI tried to do as you suggests, but I can't argue convincingly for something I don't believe. 

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Jodie.Lynne
21 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

@Jodie.LynneI tried to do as you suggests, but I can't argue convincingly for something I don't believe. 

No worries! :)

At least you tried, right?

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

No worries! :)

At least you tried, right?

Yes I did try. 

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Mr Walker
On 12/27/2019 at 10:31 PM, psyche101 said:

What do agnostic posters do?

Or those who  don't believe but know? :) 

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Or those who  don't believe but know? :) 

Good point, it makes little sense to argue against a proposition you know to be the case, the role play is for the undecided.

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joc

The only shoes I care to walk in are my own...and half the time I go barefoot...so...

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Piney
3 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

@Jodie.LynneI tried to do as you suggests, but I can't argue convincingly for something I don't believe. 

That shows your ingrained honesty and your on the level. :tu:

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Golden Duck

I support the Wallabies integrity to stay true to their "style".  The Australian tradition of eschewing the kick in favour of running rugby is why the sport is known as the game they play in heaven. 

The tradition of the amateur era is what the fan wants.  They want to see tries over results -  even when means they can't deliver the former.

Edited by Golden Duck
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Habitat
1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

I support the Wallabies integrity to stay true to their "style".  The Australian tradition of eschewing the kick in favour of running rugby is why the sport is known as the game they play in heaven. 

The tradition of the amateur era is what the fan wants.  They want to see tries over results -  even when means they can't deliver the former.

You poor tragic. That is like going fishing using cotton thread for a line, then coming home with no fish because you prefer the fish to get away.

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Golden Duck
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

You poor tragic. That is like going fishing using cotton thread for a line, then coming home with no fish because you prefer the fish to get away.

Isn't this the Bizzarro Belief thread; as in the shoe's on the other foot?

I already know I have a different philosophy to fishing than you.  I go light as I exclusively fish from land.  I'm happy if my gear fails due to the fishes size.  I then have an excuse to buy better gear.

I know you prefer heavier to reduce time and stress on the fish; and, also accept that point of view.

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psyche101
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Or those who  don't believe but know? :) 

It's an objective thinking exercise, therefore delusion doesn't have a starting point. That would exclude such I would imagine.

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Paranoid Android
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Or those who  don't believe but know? :) 

This is an exercise in "walking in someone else's shoes", is it not? There are some people who are equally certain as you (they "know") about their beliefs. But why? How do they arrive at such a different conclusion? This thought experiment gives you the chance to approach the issue of spirituality from a vantage point that (and here's the kicker) you don't normally approach it. Earlier in this thread, I approached my worldview from a purely scientific one, which is not how I normally see the world. It opens the mind to how people from other faiths live and find meaning in something completely different from you. What I wrote about seeing beauty in life as an atheist, I came to that appreciation while conducting a thought experiment just like this one. If you can "make believe" (role play, whatever) enough to assign different motivations in your head than what you, Mr Walker, would normally do, you can do this experiment :tu: 

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Sherapy
On 12/28/2019 at 6:36 PM, Mr Walker said:

Or those who  don't believe but know? :) 

Responding as a believer inspired by Robbie and Hammerclaw.

Faith in god that leads one to good works is the point of the nurturing a relationship, that one knows god and it isn’t evident in their deeds is as pointless or meaningless as wearing white socks. 
 

A person who has a joined in a relationship with god uses their actions as the testimony and it is in this one shows they “know” god. 
 

For example: If I help another I do so anonymously, I do not brag or seek validation, ever, because the very act of helping another anonymously is the blessing from god and the opportunity for me to show what I know in deed in testimony of the relationship, if I tell others for any reason I have missed the point, and am really self serving and have much to learn, IMHU (in my humble understanding).

Robbie and Hammerclaw your feedback is welcome.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

Why should I believe in this "God" everyone talks about; what good did it ever do me? The ones that were suppose to care about me worshipped this God. When I was hungry, they left my belly empty. When I was thirsty they didn't bring me water. When I was lonely, the did not comfort me. When I was afraid, they scolded me, When I needed love, they abandoned me. When I tried to help, they beat me. 

What kind of God allow such things? What kind of God that could give us paradise gives us hell instead? What kind of God, a God of love gives us hate, rape, molestation and murder? What kind of God watches while babies and children starve and priests and ministers sexually assault and corrupt the little ones in their charge, twisting and perverting them beyond hope or redemption? No, I'll have nothing to do with such a deity that won't even show us it exists. It's good for nothing.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Why should I believe in this "God" everyone talks about; what good did it ever do me? The ones that were suppose to care about me worshipped this God. When I was hungry, they left my belly empty. When I was thirsty they didn't bring me water. When I was lonely, the did not comfort me. When I was afraid, they scolded me, When I needed love, they abandoned me. When I tried to help, they beat me. 

What kind of God allow such things? What kind of God that could give us paradise gives us hell instead? What kind of God, a God of love gives us hate, rape, molestation and murder? What kind of God watches while babies and children starve and priests and ministers sexually assault and corrupt the little ones in their charge, twisting and perverting them beyond hope or redemption? No, I'll have nothing to do with such a deity that won't even show us it exists. It's good for nothing.

Responding as a believer.

I would say these are the same things that bother me and you should be concerned. I honestly can’t answer this for you, I wish I knew why myself. I am not okay with the way things are either.  We aren’t all suited to the same path or can effect change all the same way. Some are better at being the voice that gives rise to the awful things like you have brought in and has me thinking how can I use my path in a more productive way. 
 

I think collectively where ever we are we can effect change. I happen to think this way for me is via my faith. Applying my faith, in a way that says I won’t just defend and dismiss the awful atrocities of humankind. 

Edited by Sherapy
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jypsijemini

A realist:

I value knowledge.

I trust in the way things appear. I trust in proof and solid evidence. I trust in facts, figures and results.

It is my opinion that faith and beliefs are concepts that have no way of proving their authenticity and validity.

When I observe people of faith and belief, I notice their hunger for meaning and reason. I understand this to be a product of intellectual evolution: the outcome of a heightened state of consciousness and brain development due to our biological make up.

I am fuelled by knowledge. I enjoy learning. I value understanding.

I do not need a reason to live. Science tells me enough about myself and my reality to comfortably accept my existence. I will live. I will experience, interact and create. And then I will die. My existence is only important to me. However, my decisions and actions have lasting affects for those in the future. I know that after my short life has ended, the impact I have made will leave lasting affects for those left behind and those to come.

For every problem, there is a solution.

Every effect has a cause.

The future is my reality. The past only exists to provide knowledge and understanding. Each present moment is an opportunity for enjoyment and to guarantee a result in the future. I value progress. I am not emotionally tied to successes and failures - the emotions they stir in me are only there to guide me and inspire me.

 

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Sherapy
On 1/3/2020 at 9:02 PM, jypsijemini said:

A realist:

I value knowledge.

I trust in the way things appear. I trust in proof and solid evidence. I trust in facts, figures and results.

It is my opinion that faith and beliefs are concepts that have no way of proving their authenticity and validity.

When I observe people of faith and belief, I notice their hunger for meaning and reason. I understand this to be a product of intellectual evolution: the outcome of a heightened state of consciousness and brain development due to our biological make up.

I am fuelled by knowledge. I enjoy learning. I value understanding.

I do not need a reason to live. Science tells me enough about myself and my reality to comfortably accept my existence. I will live. I will experience, interact and create. And then I will die. My existence is only important to me. However, my decisions and actions have lasting affects for those in the future. I know that after my short life has ended, the impact I have made will leave lasting affects for those left behind and those to come.

For every problem, there is a solution.

Every effect has a cause.

The future is my reality. The past only exists to provide knowledge and understanding. Each present moment is an opportunity for enjoyment and to guarantee a result in the future. I value progress. I am not emotionally tied to successes and failures - the emotions they stir in me are only there to guide me and inspire me.

 

This is beautiful. :wub:

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third_eye

Me : I need a beer... 

Voice : you mean you want a beer... 

Me : ... now? 

~

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Mr Walker
On 12/29/2019 at 4:17 PM, psyche101 said:

It's an objective thinking exercise, therefore delusion doesn't have a starting point. That would exclude such I would imagine.

Only if it is a delusion :) 

That is your belief but not my experience 

Many humans have found themselves in a new environment with new knowldge and understanding  which is denied by all the experts, who have never themselves lived in tha t environment The y cant really deny what they know just to keep others happy (unless, like galileo  their   life depends on it )

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Hammerclaw
18 hours ago, third_eye said:

Me : I need a beer... 

Voice : you mean you want a beer... 

Me : ... now? 

~

Sorry, you"ll just have to settle for a glass of medicinal brandy, instead. It's good for the soul!:D

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Mr Walker
On 12/29/2019 at 5:02 PM, Paranoid Android said:

This is an exercise in "walking in someone else's shoes", is it not? There are some people who are equally certain as you (they "know") about their beliefs. But why? How do they arrive at such a different conclusion? This thought experiment gives you the chance to approach the issue of spirituality from a vantage point that (and here's the kicker) you don't normally approach it. Earlier in this thread, I approached my worldview from a purely scientific one, which is not how I normally see the world. It opens the mind to how people from other faiths live and find meaning in something completely different from you. What I wrote about seeing beauty in life as an atheist, I came to that appreciation while conducting a thought experiment just like this one. If you can "make believe" (role play, whatever) enough to assign different motivations in your head than what you, Mr Walker, would normally do, you can do this experiment :tu: 

I dont have beliefs I have knowledge.

That was my point People who know things cant logically pretend they do not know them.

Knowledge (in any area) trumps belief because it represents what is, not what might or might not be  Knowledge disallows even the most logical sincere and strong belief.

I appreciate that you and others often find my experiences to be  physically impossible and thus count them as a form of belief byvme.

They are not. 

My 'god" is as real as my wife. I cannot believe or disbelieve  in the existence of either, without being irrational because   they  simple are 

I cant say what it would be like living with a different belief structure or none at all, because it is not an area of belief but knowldge The best i can do is describe what i was like before i gained this knowledge

Oh sure I could, and do, imagine what it would be like to be a person without belief, or with a belief from  some different culture, like ancient egypt or the mongols , Ive written games with characters motivated by alien or other belief systems. i understand conan (the barbarian's)  belief system and those of many other fictional characters.     I even imagine various alien belief constructs, but that begs the real point of the thread.   

 

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Mr Walker
On 12/31/2019 at 5:28 AM, Sherapy said:

Responding as a believer inspired by Robbie and Hammerclaw.

Faith in god that leads one to good works is the point of the nurturing a relationship, that one knows god and it isn’t evident in their deeds is as pointless or meaningless as wearing white socks. 
 

A person who has a joined in a relationship with god uses their actions as the testimony and it is in this one shows they “know” god. 
 

For example: If I help another I do so anonymously, I do not brag or seek validation, ever, because the very act of helping another anonymously is the blessing from god and the opportunity for me to show what I know in deed in testimony of the relationship, if I tell others for any reason I have missed the point, and am really self serving and have much to learn, IMHU (in my humble understanding).

Robbie and Hammerclaw your feedback is welcome.

I am not talking of "knowing god"  in a psychological sense I  talking about knowing a being we often call"god" in the same way i know my dog or wife.

i cant pretend this being does not exist, but i can describe what  my life and thoughts were  like before I encountered it 

I might as well present an argument about what it would be like if i had never married or had dogs.

Possible but pointless. 

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Paranoid Android

  

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I dont have beliefs I have knowledge.

That was my point People who know things cant logically pretend they do not know them.

Yes they do, they do it ALL the time. They're called actors. And if they're popular enough they get paid more in one movie than you or I will collectively earn in our entire lives. They make a living out of pretending to know things they don't know (like knowing that cars fly, if they're flying a car in the movie). Now, forget popular actors - the good actors (at least the ones defined by Method acting or other Stanislavsky-esque techniques) get so into character that they can sometimes begin to become the character. What if an actor who has had direct experience of god is asked to take on the role of Richard Dawkins for a movie based on his life? How does this actor plumb Dawkins' motivations? He has to work as if he has never experienced god and has instead been a lifelong scientist and sceptic of everything supernatural.  

Pretend you are someone else. You have no knowledge of who Mr Walker is. Who's Mr Walker's wife? You've never met her, for that matter you've never met the god/force/thingy that he keeps on talking about. You might be Jack the Jehovah's Witness who gives out pamphlets at train stations. You might be Elder Joseph thinking about going on one more Mission for the LDS while you're still young enough. You might be Jamal the Hindu who teaches primary school kids. Or you might be Chris the atheist scientist who sees no evidence for god and therefore sees no reason to posit one.

Or anything else you choose. 

  

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Oh sure I could, and do, imagine what it would be like to be a person without belief, or with a belief from  some different culture, like ancient egypt or the mongols , Ive written games with characters motivated by alien or other belief systems. i understand conan (the barbarian's)  belief system and those of many other fictional characters.     I even imagine various alien belief constructs, but that begs the real point of the thread.   

Actually, that pretty much is the point of the thread as I understand it :tu: 

If you've written characters motivated by other belief systems then in order to ensure their motives were true to the character you would have needed to: 1- remove your own understanding of the universe from the equation and 2- understand the belief system not just from an academic point of view but from how a typical adherent lives from day to day and structures their life around their belief system. Only then can you keep your character true to life. 

Assuming you were to add your "other foot" story to the thread, you're then taking that character and role playing them and posting on the forum as if you were that person. In a thousand years from now (jumping into your discussing with Liquid Gardens about not believing Mr Walker was a real person), if you were realistic enough in your portrayal of someone else in this thread a conspiracy theorist reading you might connect some random dots and say "ha, this was Mr Walker's true beliefs, it was a subtle clue the real person left for us to find" :lol: (just kidding.... or am I.....:ph34r:).

Like I said, which belief you choose doesn't matter. By getting inside the head of another person with a different world view it opens the door to better understanding not just them and their beliefs but also your own experiences too. Do I make sense?

~ PA

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

  

Yes they do, they do it ALL the time. They're called actors. And if they're popular enough they get paid more in one movie than you or I will collectively earn in our entire lives. They make a living out of pretending to know things they don't know (like knowing that cars fly, if they're flying a car in the movie). Now, forget popular actors - the good actors (at least the ones defined by Method acting or other Stanislavsky-esque techniques) get so into character that they can sometimes begin to become the character. What if an actor who has had direct experience of god is asked to take on the role of Richard Dawkins for a movie based on his life? How does this actor plumb Dawkins' motivations? He has to work as if he has never experienced god and has instead been a lifelong scientist and sceptic of everything supernatural.  

Pretend you are someone else. You have no knowledge of who Mr Walker is. Who's Mr Walker's wife? You've never met her, for that matter you've never met the god/force/thingy that he keeps on talking about. You might be Jack the Jehovah's Witness who gives out pamphlets at train stations. You might be Elder Joseph thinking about going on one more Mission for the LDS while you're still young enough. You might be Jamal the Hindu who teaches primary school kids. Or you might be Chris the atheist scientist who sees no evidence for god and therefore sees no reason to posit one.

Or anything else you choose. 

  

Actually, that pretty much is the point of the thread as I understand it :tu: 

If you've written characters motivated by other belief systems then in order to ensure their motives were true to the character you would have needed to: 1- remove your own understanding of the universe from the equation and 2- understand the belief system not just from an academic point of view but from how a typical adherent lives from day to day and structures their life around their belief system. Only then can you keep your character true to life. 

Assuming you were to add your "other foot" story to the thread, you're then taking that character and role playing them and posting on the forum as if you were that person. In a thousand years from now (jumping into your discussing with Liquid Gardens about not believing Mr Walker was a real person), if you were realistic enough in your portrayal of someone else in this thread a conspiracy theorist reading you might connect some random dots and say "ha, this was Mr Walker's true beliefs, it was a subtle clue the real person left for us to find" :lol: (just kidding.... or am I.....:ph34r:).

Like I said, which belief you choose doesn't matter. By getting inside the head of another person with a different world view it opens the door to better understanding not just them and their beliefs but also your own experiences too. Do I make sense?

~ PA

The difference is simple. le creativity and imagination versus reality One can create and alter the former at will, but one can only change the second by physical action 

I can,and  sometimes do pretend to be a woman, or a buddhist, or a teenager,  so that i can understand  them better. My mother explicitly taught me this skill as a child and it has been very useful as a person and a teacher 

It seems simple a t first but to use it effectively one has to go deep deconstuct all ones present world view and biases (which entails understanding how and why you constructed them over time ) and then build a different one,  just as complex, nuanced and real, from scratch.

It is something novelists do and good novelists do very well,but it also requires a deep knowledge and understanding of the person andctheir times Eg if i really want to imagine I am genghis khan I have to know everything about him, fromc what he ate to how he toileted and wht hygiene knowledge he had  What it felt like to wear the clothes he wore What the landscape/world around him was like and how it shaped him  What t was like to be able to ride and shoot an arrow a t a specific point in the horse's motion. how he felt after riding a horse all day  and what and why he believed about gods.

What did he see feel and understand as he rode the steppes under a clear blue sky or huddled in acave to avoid lightning before deciding to venture forth to test his relationship with the gods What was it like scaling a rocky crag to capture the young eagle which would become his emblem and why did he need to do this   

Thats called empathy.(as i am sure you know)  It promotes tolerance and understanding And maybe that was the point of the thread as it relates to beliefs.

But one cant actually become a woman  or a teenager (or even a buddhist) without physically changing things 

My point was that, if you  live with a  real physical god (weird as tha t might sound)  there is no point pretending you do not, especially if you  already know what it is like to live without one.  Indeed to do so would be to deny reality and be a bit psychotic. It would be like pretending you were a teenager and then acting like one even if you were 70 years old 

My view was that the thread was not simply designed to get people to think through difernt beliefs but to then get them to realise  their own.  may be wrong and to change it 

Nothing wrong with that Indeed a good idea and something people should be doing constantly  .

But it cant work on people with knowledge You cant wish away what you know via a mental exercise  You cant become young again, or of a different gender by imagining it to be so  

That is the point i was making in saying that people who know god exists cant really pretend "he"   does not, or conclude that it might be better if  they believed that "he" did not  

Ive actually gone further down this path than most 

I developed the abilty to create and construct my dreams.

That meant that, consciously and subconsciously, every night I could become any one or anything i wanted to 

Ive been dozens of historical and fictional characters from  the past and present, and fictional characters from  the future, where i acted from  within their persona in my dream world  

I've been a woman many times, from  many different cultures Ive been emperors, kings, peasants and slaves  (and when i say "been", as long as the dream lasted i WAS that character and acted in character)

I suspect this skill is very similar to how a writer constructs and builds a character  

I've lived the life of people from  thousands of years ago and thousands of years in the future  Ive  been many alien creatures  

ive experienced being homosexual, inter sexual, and even some alien gender forms :) 

Of course there is also always the influence of your own real life and knowledge eg I cant speak other languages in those dreams.

So i deeply appreciate your point (maybe i just took it for granted ) but it doesn't apply to being able to change what is, simply by imagining it 

Edited by Mr Walker

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psyche101
15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Only if it is a delusion :) 

That is your belief but not my experience 

It is my experience that your belief is extremely likely to be a delusion. I'd guess the odds at about 99.99999999999999999999% likely that your claims are delusion.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Many humans have found themselves in a new environment with new knowldge and understanding  which is denied by all the experts, who have never themselves lived in tha t environment The y cant really deny what they know just to keep others happy (unless, like galileo  their   life depends on it )

They can transfer knowledge though. You are unable to do so. As PA put it, you are better described as an actor. 

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