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Jodie.Lynne

The Shoe is on the other Foot

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psyche101
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The difference is simple. le creativity and imagination versus reality One can create and alter the former at will, but one can only change the second by physical action 

I can,and  sometimes do pretend to be a woman, or a buddhist, or a teenager,  so that i can understand  them better. My mother explicitly taught me this skill as a child and it has been very useful as a person and a teacher 

It seems simple a t first but to use it effectively one has to go deep deconstuct all ones present world view and biases (which entails understanding how and why you constructed them over time ) and then build a different one,  just as complex, nuanced and real, from scratch.

It is something novelists do and good novelists do very well,but it also requires a deep knowledge and understanding of the person andctheir times Eg if i really want to imagine I am genghis khan I have to know everything about him, fromc what he ate to how he toileted and wht hygiene knowledge he had  What it felt like to wear the clothes he wore What the landscape/world around him was like and how it shaped him  What t was like to be able to ride and shoot an arrow a t a specific point in the horse's motion. how he felt after riding a horse all day  and what and why he believed about gods.

What did he see feel and understand as he rode the steppes under a clear blue sky or huddled in acave to avoid lightning before deciding to venture forth to test his relationship with the gods What was it like scaling a rocky crag to capture the young eagle which would become his emblem and why did he need to do this   

Thats called empathy.(as i am sure you know)  It promotes tolerance and understanding And maybe that was the point of the thread as it relates to beliefs.

But one cant actually become a woman  or a teenager (or even a buddhist) without physically changing things 

My point was that, if you  live with a  real physical god (weird as tha t might sound)  there is no point pretending you do not, especially if you  already know what it is like to live without one.  Indeed to do so would be to deny reality and be a bit psychotic. It would be like pretending you were a teenager and then acting like one even if you were 70 years old 

My view was that the thread was not simply designed to get people to think through difernt beliefs but to then get them to realise  their own.  may be wrong and to change it 

Nothing wrong with that Indeed a good idea and something people should be doing constantly  .

But it cant work on people with knowledge You cant wish away what you know via a mental exercise  You cant become young again, or of a different gender by imagining it to be so  

That is the point i was making in saying that people who know god exists cant really pretend "he"   does not, or conclude that it might be better if  they believed that "he" did not  

Ive actually gone further down this path than most 

I developed the abilty to create and construct my dreams.

That meant that, consciously and subconsciously, every night I could become any one or anything i wanted to 

Ive been dozens of historical and fictional characters from  the past and present, and fictional characters from  the future, where i acted from  within their persona in my dream world  

I've been a woman many times, from  many different cultures Ive been emperors, kings, peasants and slaves  (and when i say "been", as long as the dream lasted i WAS that character and acted in character)

I suspect this skill is very similar to how a writer constructs and builds a character  

I've lived the life of people from  thousands of years ago and thousands of years in the future  Ive  been many alien creatures  

ive experienced being homosexual, inter sexual, and even some alien gender forms :) 

Of course there is also always the influence of your own real life and knowledge eg I cant speak other languages in those dreams.

So i deeply appreciate your point (maybe i just took it for granted ) but it doesn't apply to being able to change what is, simply by imagining it 

Dude

That's not helping

That's freaking wierd

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Sherapy
15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not talking of "knowing god"  in a psychological sense I  talking about knowing a being we often call"god" in the same way i know my dog or wife.

i cant pretend this being does not exist, but i can describe what  my life and thoughts were  like before I encountered it 

I might as well present an argument about what it would be like if i had never married or had dogs.

Possible but pointless. 

Mr Wallker, why does everything  posted become about you?
 

 

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Habitat
5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Mr Wallker, why does everything  posted become about you?
 

 

Been delving into the Walker archives lately ?

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psyche101
5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Mr Wallker, why does everything  posted become about you?

I know this one

Only example he feels he can draw on accurately. 

I personally think the constant referral to self indicates otherwise, but that's just my opinion.

There.

Saved a few pages I think ...... :lol:

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Habitat

Walker keeps the chooks fed, they'd be pecking at dust otherwise.

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psyche101
8 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Walker keeps the chooks fed, they'd be pecking at dust otherwise.

And you follow critical thinker's like blowies to a doggy doo with commentary instead of input. You've obviously been on the sidelines your whole life. Not surprising after what I've seen. 

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Habitat
Just now, psyche101 said:

And you follow critical thinker's like blowies to a doggy doo with commentary instead of input. You've obviously been on the sidelines your whole life. Not surprising after what I've seen. 

You aren't a critical thinker, you are a dogmatist, extrapolating well beyond what is known. I'm very cautious by comparison.

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psyche101
5 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You aren't a critical thinker, you are a dogmatist, extrapolating well beyond what is known. I'm very cautious by comparison.

Bwahahaha

Yeah habs.

Sure you are. Your opinion is so valuable. Everybody just hangs of every word you post of sage oh the mystics who can Morse code with the dead, all hail the matchstick master of Morse code ........

giphy.gif

Edited by psyche101
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Mr Walker
50 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Mr Wallker, why does everything  posted become about you?
 

 

Sometimes because my ideas, knowledge, values and concepts ,conflict with most other peoples'. 

In this case you and paranoid android were assuming that what i have is a belief (because you don't believe it can be real)  

For the hundredth time then, I had to point out that my reply/opinion comes from  a poster who knows and has lived with a real entity, like a god, not someone who has a deep belief in it's existence

As hammer claw says, i can only make informed comments and opinions using my own knowledge as a reference  point . Anyone who wants to understand  my views has to understand what i know and how i think.

Eg you wont find me commenting on things from  the perspective of a woman, or a homosexual,or a person from  another race,  as if i was one   I can comment on what it might be like to be an atheist because i was one for 2 decades  I guess if an atheist is a person who does not believe that gods exist, then i still am one. i don't believe they exist  I know they do :) Even if, in reality, they are only gods because we name them such 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Paranoid Android

 

  

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I can,and  sometimes do pretend to be a woman, or a buddhist, or a teenager,  so that i can understand  them better. My mother explicitly taught me this skill as a child and it has been very useful as a person and a teacher 

So why don't you do it here in this thread? 

 

  

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

My point was that, if you  live with a  real physical god (weird as tha t might sound)  there is no point pretending you do not, especially if you  already know what it is like to live without one.  Indeed to do so would be to deny reality and be a bit psychotic. It would be like pretending you were a teenager and then acting like one even if you were 70 years old 

 

And I am 100% convinced that you don't understand the question of the thread. You are unable to role play someone with different life experiences than you. At least we know for a fact that there is one thing that you are incapable of doing - we all have limits, Mr Walker. I just didn't expect your limit to be so mundane. 

 

 

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Paranoid Android
41 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

In this case you and paranoid android were assuming that what i have is a belief (because you don't believe it can be real)  

No I wasn't. I never claimed anything about a "belief", in fact I specifically used the word "experiences" when referencing your life, because you have "objectively observed a reality of god yada yada". You're getting hung up on this issue because you are unable or unwilling to see the point of this thread, and instead of admitting it you're blaming me and Sheri and psyche and anyone else of misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting you.  

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Sherapy
57 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Sometimes because my ideas, knowledge, values and concepts ,conflict with most other peoples'. 

In this case you and paranoid android were assuming that what i have is a belief (because you don't believe it can be real)  

For the hundredth time then, I had to point out that my reply/opinion comes from  a poster who knows and has lived with a real entity, like a god, not someone who has a deep belief in it's existence

As hammer claw says, i can only make informed comments and opinions using my own knowledge as a reference  point . Anyone who wants to understand  my views has to understand what i know and how i think.

Eg you wont find me commenting on things from  the perspective of a woman, or a homosexual,or a person from  another race,  as if i was one   I can comment on what it might be like to be an atheist because i was one for 2 decades  I guess if an atheist is a person who does not believe that gods exist, then i still am one. i don't believe they exist  I know they do :) Even if, in reality, they are only gods because we name them such 

I say a “safe space” is needed for you. you are feeling vulnerable and marginalized correct?

With this in mind, how can we elevate this discussion to a place of a constructive give and take about walking In another's shoes how can we get you to participate while extending you empathy.
 

You want to be understood for what you know and what you think correct? What does this mean in your own words?

You are known for commenting all the time on experiences you haven’t had, why not do the same here.

It seems like, you only want  to discuss what you want to discuss and will derail the thread until it becomes exactly what you want to talk about. 
 

This thread is meant to extend empathy by posting in a different perspective than your own.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

Walker keeps the chooks fed, they'd be pecking at dust otherwise.

 

Why not get on topic and try posting from  a different perspective then your own.

Edited by Sherapy
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Habitat
14 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

Why not get on topic and try posting from  a different perspective then your own.

I'm not a practiced actor or liar, I guess !

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Sherapy
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I'm not a practiced actor or liar, I guess !

How about just perspective shifting. A critical thinker can perspective shift and does to arrive at conclusions that are as objective as humanly possible  considering our inherent biases. 
 

I

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I know this one

Only example he feels he can draw on accurately. 

I personally think the constant referral to self indicates otherwise, but that's just my opinion.

There.

Saved a few pages I think ...... :lol:

Shoe on the other foot, Psyche. Give us your best Mr. Walker.

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psyche101
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Shoe on the other foot, Psyche. Give us your best Mr. Walker.

I prefer shoes on both feet :lol:

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

I prefer shoes on both feet :lol:

You can do it Psyche, all straight-faced and everything. I'd wager you're a fair dinkum impressionist.

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Hammerclaw
4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Mr Wallker, why does everything  posted become about you?
 

 

https://youtu.be/gUUOKqKsfeM

 

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Tatetopa

I am a believer and that gives me humility, hope, and power.  I abandoned the Christianity of my youth and spurned that concept of God and thought I would never have another, and yet one found me. 

I struggled alone, searching for power, seeking importance and meaning for my life.  I sat through the night on a stormy mountaintop playing chaos on my flute and singing for power.  The wind and rain answered and power came.  I could not command it, it barely even noticed me, and when it did, it froze my bones and set me to trembling.  I don't know if I cried out, but I was terrified. It was not interested in the lives of men or their desires, its focus was elsewhere.as it passed my mountaintop.  It never spoke, but it taught me a lesson nevertheless. No matter how much I chased power, I could not approach the power of this being.  Power over oneself is power enough for man and plenty to live a good life.

I found teachers who seemed to know a good way for people to walk through life.  I sang with them , helped them  split wood and other chores that are just part of living.  We sweat together.  They could call those spirits and helpers into the darkness and heat of the sweat lodge that were concerned with the welfare of men.  I could feel their comforting presence. I came out of the lodges refreshed and reborn, my cares dissipating.  I did not tell of my experience, but they had a name for the being that passed over me. Maybe the same and maybe different, but the name was good enough.

I discovered that the practice of the preparations for a lodge was for me far better than meditation.  When I was a fireman, building the fire and heating the stones for the lodge, painting every one bright red, the color of life,  there were no checkbooks or bills to pay, just me and the fire and the stones.  I felt centered and calm, competent and at peace. I took great pleasure in my  service, handing in the glowing stones, being ready, anticipating  when the leader would call to open the door, or hand in water or the pipes.  I was a part of it all  and it felt good.  I did not need to question the meaning of life or why I was there.

I learned to trust intuition and listen to my inner voice. I often felt alone but sometimes was reminded that I was not.   At least once on a cold morning in a vision quest camp, a woman's voice in the bright blue sky told me what I needed to hear to make a choice, to believe or not believe.  Twice after, a voice in my head saved me from injury or death with a command that I followed. 

At bigger ceremonies, as a white man in a native world, I sometimes felt like an intruder.  But the spirits of the place would direct me to a spot to stand in the circle and welcome me and assure me that I was right to be there.  Sometimes even a man needs to be a little boy and let grandmother wrap her blanket around you to feel warm and loved and safe.

So as different from Christianity as it could be I found a place and a belonging, personal power, confidence and peace that I had not found in my childhood.

Enough.

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

No I wasn't. I never claimed anything about a "belief", in fact I specifically used the word "experiences" when referencing your life, because you have "objectively observed a reality of god yada yada". You're getting hung up on this issue because you are unable or unwilling to see the point of this thread, and instead of admitting it you're blaming me and Sheri and psyche and anyone else of misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting you.  

ok I dont see it that way, but i can see how you might.

Your posts suggest to me that, because something is a belief ,we can hypothesise an alternative belief, and i agree with that.

However, while we can, there is no point in hypothesising a different actual reality, because, unlike our beliefs  it is impossible to change our reality.

I could hypothesise a life in which i never met my wife, but what  would be the point ?  I could hypothesise a life in which I was never contacted by the cosmic consciousness but ,again  what would be the point ?  We can't change what is, and thus there is no point thinking that we can, or imagining,  "might have beens." That way lies depression and madness :)    

While you used experiences, the tone of your post implied i had built a belief or beliefs around those experiences, rather than that they were simply what they were   

 

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well yes of course :) if you don't live life "your way,"  why live it a t all ?   To be happy, a person must live life  fully in sync with their needs, beliefs, values, principles, and ideals

The y MUST live life their way, or it is a " wasted"  life,   full of regrets and frustrations. 

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Dude

That's not helping

That's freaking wierd

:) you have never done much reading nor used your imagination very much have you?   I say that because  anyone who read much fiction at ll would realise this is the process required to write it 

This isn't weird It is  a perfectly natural human skill  Go to any writer's group and you will hear about t he skills needed to create  characters who fit  properly into their millieu or society, and whose motivations and behaviours are consistent with the world view the writer created  for them.

   Anyone can write a story about Temujin but the best ones are believable and consistent ,so that the reader identifies with,  and understands, the character's mind and behaviours. 

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How about just perspective shifting. A critical thinker can perspective shift and does to arrive at conclusions that are as objective as humanly possible  considering our inherent biases. 
 

I

A perspective shift simply provides an alternative subjective opinion.

Shift perspective enough times and evaluate all, fully and carefully, and it can help you reach a more informed and thus  accurate conclusion, but not necessarily a more objective one 

That requires a slightly different skill; ie to remove personal perspective entirely and look at things objectively To know what can be measured objectively and what cannot   You can have  hundred different perspectives on the colour and fragrance of a rose, but you can never have an objective perspective. You can determine an objective perspective on the structural integrity of something, however,  which is NOT dependent on any of the possible subjective perspectives,regarding that integrity  .

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I say a “safe space” is needed for you. you are feeling vulnerable and marginalized correct?

With this in mind, how can we elevate this discussion to a place of a constructive give and take about walking In another's shoes how can we get you to participate while extending you empathy.
 

You want to be understood for what you know and what you think correct? What does this mean in your own words?

You are known for commenting all the time on experiences you haven’t had, why not do the same here.

It seems like, you only want  to discuss what you want to discuss and will derail the thread until it becomes exactly what you want to talk about. 
 

This thread is meant to extend empathy by posting in a different perspective than your own.

Nup Incorrect :) 

I dont feel tha t way, and i never said anything which might have suggested i did.

I was quite specific.

during the fire we saw many people suffering loss and trauma.  That  affected me 

today 15 years later, almost to the day,  when i see the same scenes of death, loss, and devastation to others it brings back the feelings of sorrow and empathy i felt  then 

Oh sorry   I think to you were speaking hypothetically(and i was responding to the posts about a safe place in another thread 

But no i am not marginalised  and i am certainly not vulnerable.

it might seem odd to you because i can see how you might think a person with my views would be marginalised.

The opposite is actually true.

   However i have never needed to be liked or validated by others  enough to affect my principles and values even as a child ) (although  I am  liked loved and validated by most people in my life because of the person  I am so i would be foolish to change myself  )  And so I am not vulnerable to fears  loneliness anxiety etc just because i am a bit different .

I accept that difference and while i dont revel in it its more important to be right than to  be popular. 

(i went to my first book club meeting before christmas Now,either they are all alcoholics, or they were celebrating christmas 

There were no non alcoholic drinks provided  I was given  (without being asked ) a dry white wine  I drank it over the evening even though i didn't enjoy it 

it was more  moral not to offend others than to refuse on principle .That was the first taste of alcohol i have had for over 45 years It was interesting  But noI  didn't feel marginalised or vulnerable.  Given two principles i chose the one which would hurt others less   Next time i will make sure there are some non alcoholic drinks available and that they know  i don't drink.  

That (vulnerable and isolated)  may be how other people feel, and so they project those feelings onto me  

Um ! I rarely comment on experiences i haven't had, because i am not qualified to comment  That is why so much/many  of my posts are about me, not others.

  I do pursue points which are non mainstream and uncommon, and hence sometimes controversial, or even upsetting to others.  but which i genuinely believe in, and value.

   I see no point or value in commenting on things we all agree on. No room for growth there, and i would be spending 3 times the time here. 

Yea i get the point.

However one cannot (without being dishonest or hypocritical) do this with things you know to be true, only with beliefs /opinions etc.,  which are open to change. 

I would have to argue from the standpoint that i know "god"  does not exist   because my present standpoint is that i know "god" does exist ( No belief involved, to alter. )

That would be untrue but also pointless 

I think that is why habitat feels this could be dishonest.   

 

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