You don't have a soul

[Mr Walker]

37 minutes ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

It's walker. He just makes it up as he goes and then tries to turn threads into the mr walker show.

Nup I am compelled to correct error and educate ignorance.  

Soul and spirit when applied to  humans are much wider terms than just religious ones.

Indeed i was raised a secular humanist knowing and understanding the  importance of our spirit and soul in making us human, without any religious connection at all.

So it annoys me a bit to see some try to redefine and limit "soul" and "spirit" to simple religious concepts Humans have religions BECAUSE we have souls and spirit.

It is also  why we are capable of art music love hate guilt conscience etc 

As above, many things  are good (or bad) for the human soul and spirit, Some things  uplift them while  others depress them   These often have nothing to do with any religious belief or faith. 

and just to  prove this is not me redefining things

quote

The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality. John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.

https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit

a bit more "out there" but basically what i was taught as a child is the following

 quote

Secular spirituality is the adherence to a spiritual philosophy without adherence to a religion. Secular spirituality emphasizes the personal growth and inner peace of the individual, rather than a relationship with the divine. Secular spirituality is made up of the search for meaning outside of a religious institution; it considers one's relationship with the self, others, nature, and whatever else one considers to be the ultimate.[1] Often, the goal of secular spirituality is living happily and/or helping others.[2]

According to Robert C. Solomon, an American Professor of Philosophy, "spirituality is coextensive with religion and it is not incompatible with or opposed to science or the scientific outlook. Naturalized spirituality is spirituality without any need for the 'other‐worldly'. Spirituality is one of the goals, perhaps the ultimate goal, of philosophy."[3] Cornel W Du Toit, head of the Research Institute for Theology and Religion at the University of South Africa, suggests secular spirituality is unique in that it adapts so well to modern world views, and is therefore compatible with other modern beliefs and ways of life, building community through shared experiences of "awe".[4] Peter Van der Veer also argues an important aspect of secular spirituality is its promotion of community, creating solidarity through shared universal truth.[5]:1101 This 'universal truth' can be experienced through a secular or non-religious world view, without the need for a concept of 'higher power' or a 'supernatural being'.

Instances of secular spirituality are mediated differently, as instances of awe can be encouraged through a diversity of unique environments and situations.[6] In the 21st century, individuals increasingly connect with the secularly spiritual through technology.[6] As follows, the connection between contemporary spiritual practices and technology is deepening profoundly.[6] Some traditionally religious practices have been adapted by secular practitioners under strictly spiritual understandings, such as yoga and mindfulness meditation. Secular spirituality affects education, relationships to nature, and community togetherness.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_spirituality

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/spiritual-wisdom-secular-times/201206/spirituality-beginners-8-soul-and-spirit

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Habitat]

Walker is feeding the fowls again, they are pecking furiously, they like his 'corn" !

[Imaginarynumber1]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Nup I am compelled to correct error and educate ignorance.  

Soul and spirit when applied to  humans are much wider terms than just religious ones.

Indeed i was raised a secular humanist knowing and understanding the  importance of our spirit and soul in making us human, without any religious connection at all.

So it annoys me a bit to see some try to redefine and limit "soul" and "spirit" to simple religious concepts Humans have religions BECAUSE we have souls and spirit.

It is also  why we are capable of art music love hate guilt conscience etc 

As above, many things  are good (or bad) for the human soul and spirit, Some things  uplift them while  others depress them   These often have nothing to do with any religious belief or faith. 

and just to  prove this is not me redefining things

quote

The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality. John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.

https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit

a bit more "out there" but basically what i was taught as a child is the following

 quote

Secular spirituality is the adherence to a spiritual philosophy without adherence to a religion. Secular spirituality emphasizes the personal growth and inner peace of the individual, rather than a relationship with the divine. Secular spirituality is made up of the search for meaning outside of a religious institution; it considers one's relationship with the self, others, nature, and whatever else one considers to be the ultimate.[1] Often, the goal of secular spirituality is living happily and/or helping others.[2]

According to Robert C. Solomon, an American Professor of Philosophy, "spirituality is coextensive with religion and it is not incompatible with or opposed to science or the scientific outlook. Naturalized spirituality is spirituality without any need for the 'other‐worldly'. Spirituality is one of the goals, perhaps the ultimate goal, of philosophy."[3] Cornel W Du Toit, head of the Research Institute for Theology and Religion at the University of South Africa, suggests secular spirituality is unique in that it adapts so well to modern world views, and is therefore compatible with other modern beliefs and ways of life, building community through shared experiences of "awe".[4] Peter Van der Veer also argues an important aspect of secular spirituality is its promotion of community, creating solidarity through shared universal truth.[5]:1101 This 'universal truth' can be experienced through a secular or non-religious world view, without the need for a concept of 'higher power' or a 'supernatural being'.

Instances of secular spirituality are mediated differently, as instances of awe can be encouraged through a diversity of unique environments and situations.[6] In the 21st century, individuals increasingly connect with the secularly spiritual through technology.[6] As follows, the connection between contemporary spiritual practices and technology is deepening profoundly.[6] Some traditionally religious practices have been adapted by secular practitioners under strictly spiritual understandings, such as yoga and mindfulness meditation. Secular spirituality affects education, relationships to nature, and community togetherness.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_spirituality

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/spiritual-wisdom-secular-times/201206/spirituality-beginners-8-soul-and-spirit

 

 

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

Walker is feeding the fowls again, they are pecking furiously, they like his 'corn" !

[ai_guardian]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality. John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.

https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit

In light of this then, I stand corrected on the definition of being "spiritual". I always thought it had religious undertones (this appears to be one of two definitions) but if it is as a dictionary has it, spirituality being the driver of human spirit with human spirit as above, then, we're all spiritual - discussions about spirituality are over - send out the memo. And IF the human spirit is synonymous with human soul, then hey we all have a soul too - it dies with the body as does the spirit. No problem, very broad definition but does not mean that there is any part that is immortal or separate from the human body either.

[Mr Walker]

30 minutes ago, ai_guardian said:

In light of this then, I stand corrected on the definition of being "spiritual". I always thought it had religious undertones (this appears to be one of two definitions) but if it is as a dictionary has it, spirituality being the driver of human spirit with human spirit as above, then, we're all spiritual - discussions about spirituality are over - send out the memo. And IF the human spirit is synonymous with human soul, then hey we all have a soul too - it dies with the body as does the spirit. No problem, very broad definition but does not mean that there is any part that is immortal or separate from the human body either.

Yup that is my view.

Nothing magical or immortal about the soul, but it is incredibly beautiful and powerful, otherwise i wouldn't cry in every damned Nicholas Spark's movie   

As i said i was introduced to that broad definition as a humanist and through literature  especially classical and romantic literature, where it often arises as a motivator for good/evil /love etc 

"It is a far far better thing i do, than i have ever done ."

"Sonny, true love is the greatest thing, in the world-except for a nice MLT – mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe. They're so perky, I love that."

Edited January 4, 2020 by Mr Walker

[psyche101]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:34 AM, Wes83 said:

It’s not that I’m uninterested in broadening my own understanding and I’m open to new data. 
 

Well that's refreshing. I am more than happy to stand corrected there.

Quote

Also I’m not interested in teaching my kids the wrong things, so I have these discussions with folks like you on the internet and a few I have found in my circles. My kids ask me about church teachings/heaven/hell-and I always ask them what they think about it. The only thing I ever enter into their minds regarding religion is that god should be loosely defined by their own logic, or not.

I was similar in my approach. I'm atheist, sent my children to an ecumenical school and said you tell me what makes sense to you. It's a choice for you to make, not me.

Quote

To say that creativity is packaged and measured in art, music etc... is plausible. However, these things are the result of creativity-not the creativity itself. I see a gap between the actual invention and the creative process that brings it about. I suppose you could say there are no true inventions but discoveries that lead us to new technologies and that would negate the need for creativity. Just a variety of perspectives of things already known leading to things unknown awaiting discovery.

That's how much of science and discovery works. We are standing on the shoulders of giants. Often such avenues lead to new ones, but the basics remain a constant rock solid base. That's why we can get confident in them, hundreds of years of observation and predictions are behind those understandings. We build from them to new places.

Quote

Writing music I find I often discover a new way (to me) to put two chords together that induce different emotional vibes, but I can’t say I’ve ever “created”. Even writing the lyrics, I’ve just discovered a new way to say what’s been said before maybe. Or a new way to express a common situation. 
 

But when you put your own words to describe what is in your year,bus that might original and therefore creation? Expression of who you are artistically?

I am a guitarist myself, I can see what you are saying, and was jaded by the same run of the mill idea. New fusions in Australian Hip Hop with bands like the Herd and Hilltop Hoods have really inspired me. They have torn down walks of seperation, metal, jazz, rock, rap, classical, to be able to fuse all these sounds to create something great I honestly think it is very creative. There's ways to make old new again in a creative new way. 

Quote

this post seems to find me totally in agreement with you lol how about that moment though? When we arrest that moment before we make a decision and the possible consequences of both choices are known to us intimately, one has a generally better outcome-yet we choose the one with complete chaos the only certainty. 
 

Lol, so true. We all seem to possess 20/20 hindsight. It can take some self discipline, but we can make those decisions. It's why I really don't find religious ideas palatable, and I see things like afterlife concepts as part of the same core superstition, I think deep down most have this "really?" feeling, but it takes self discipline and effort to learn why that feeling is justified. 

Quote

i don’t think personality can completely be explained through genetics and nurture, although I just read a story about two twins separated at birth living identical lives decades later. Law of large numbers? or genetics plays a bigger part in our lives than I have accepted. 

I think genetics have a strong influence. I have 4 step kids and two genetic, some traits are noticeable between some but not others. But I look at my offspring and see two very different people. Yet they still have similarities. What I do notice most though is just how much my daughter is like me. She has the same mannerisms, interests, does the same strange quirky things and has the same sense of humour. She is a mini me really. Yet my son is more like his mother in those ways. The genetic connection I think is much stronger between offspring and parent, more so than between siblings. But that's simply my personal observations. I don't know if they are supported.

Quote

i have nothing to stand on, yet I still believe there is some essence in us I can’t explain... I let go of Christianity at a young age and studied various religions over the years, never buying, just window shopping. 
 

I was dragged through a lot of religions by my mother. I didn't get much of a choice, but you know how it goes. If you live in a dysfunctional way, after a while it seems normal. I tried a few as well. After a while it occurred to me that there's another choice. No religion. It works for me. No false hopes. No wild controversy. Things are what they are. That strikes me as the only honest approach. It guides knowledge, whereas philosophical ideologies direct beliefs. 

Quote

as it stands, I agree with you-there is no need to introduce an unknown medium to explain phenomena of the mind, and yet I do... 

maybe I’m crazy 

Lol, I certainly underestimated you, and I'd like to apologise for that. My post was more terse than it should have been. You are not crazier than anyone else as far as I can see. Thank you for the interesting, well thought out pleasent reply.

[psyche101]

3 hours ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

 

He goes to the races too much I think. Thinks he has to call the thread as it progresses.

So they've settled down nicely and it''s 8 bits in front, he's gone out by about four lengths now. Sherapy second, and they're striding along at a good tempo. Jmccr's around Sherapy. Sherapy is getting a lovely run in front of Deb.F, who is three wide between horses, Davros with Xeno getting a good run on the inside. Psyche101 next, in front habitat who's been running up the rear from the start. Then Saru and Kismet, with kmt_sesh following those. A couple of lengths to Hammerclaw, with Cormac on the inside. Harte next in front of manwon_lender, derjama works his way away from the inside, with Mr_Walker looking to get him a bit closer, will due was next, and at the back is habitat and still last and a long way off this tearaway leader is crooked_spiral.

[Alchopwn]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:41 PM, Mr Walker said:

Except that they are all that define us as human  and separate us from  the other apes like the one in your avatar.   

What nonsense.  Spirituality has been a total dead end for the entirety of human existence.  It was only when we turned away from the pointless introspection and began to review what we knew about the physical world that we ever made any progress.  

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

that is because you see the soul in religious terms and thus spirituality as a religious artefact. 

Well, there is absolutely nothing that you can do to show anybody something that would indicate the existence of a soul, other than the 21 grams of poop they drop in their pants when they die.

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I recognised my soul and my spirit while I was an atheist.

ORLY.

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

i cultivated it directed it strengthened it and shaped it from  the age of 4   so i would become the human being I chose to be 

Straight up evidence that your previous statement was a lie.  Or are you saying that prior to the age of 4 you were an atheist?  An age when most people are barely capable of language and not really au fait with the philosophy of comparative religions.

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The problem with  the issue here is that soul and spirit have been limited to religious terms and seen as immortal or separate from  the mind/brain  Our soul /spirit is not immortal or immaterial and is affected by physical things like  illness, age, and death of the mind,  when it also dies 

So, if the soul is immaterial, you admit it doesn't exist, except as an idea in your head?

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Souls and spirit exist.

As words in the dictionary, yes.  In reality they describe obsolete metaphysical ideas,

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

we all  have them. (well anyone capable of contributing to Um anyway ) However they are not immortal or magical or religious. they are evolved  qualities of our evolved slef aware intelligence,  and  our abilty to think in conceptual, abstract, and symbolic, terms

So, basically this "soul" is really just consciousness.  Quelle surprise! (jk)

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If you can cry from  sorrow or from  joy, you have a soul and a spirit.  

No, that is just sappy emotionalism posing as something more profound than it is.  The right syringe full of neurochemistry, or the right shock to the brain can generate those exact effects.  If you are going to equate emotions to the soul, perhaps you are on the autism spectrum and don't know it buddy, just sayin'.

[Habitat]

2 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

If you are going to equate emotions to the soul, perhaps you are on the autism spectrum and don't know it buddy, just sayin'.

You are becoming more obnoxious, in fact on the strength of that, I grant you full membership of the "Team"

[Alchopwn]

21 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You are becoming more obnoxious, in fact on the strength of that, I grant you full membership of the "Team"

For the record, I am immensely pro-aspie.  Some of the best academics and my finest friends are on the spectrum (albeit high functioning), and their contribution to the world is laudable and profound.  I opted for mentioning the autism spectrum, as the alternative is the sociopathy/psychopathy spectrum where people have their emotional responses "turned right down" to the point where they need extreme events to cause even slight emotional reactions.  I seriously hope Mr Walker isn't one of those, for everybody's sake.

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, psyche101 said:

He goes to the races too much I think. Thinks he has to call the thread as it progresses.

So they've settled down nicely and it''s 8 bits in front, he's gone out by about four lengths now. Sherapy second, and they're striding along at a good tempo. Jmccr's around Sherapy. Sherapy is getting a lovely run in front of Deb.F, who is three wide between horses, Davros with Xeno getting a good run on the inside. Psyche101 next, in front habitat who's been running up the rear from the start. Then Saru and Kismet, with kmt_sesh following those. A couple of lengths to Hammerclaw, with Cormac on the inside. Harte next in front of manwon_lender, derjama works his way away from the inside, with Mr_Walker looking to get him a bit closer, will due was next, and at the back is habitat and still last and a long way off this tearaway leader is crooked_spiral.

Fortunately, races are won or lost on objective, criteria  referenced assessments, (eg first horse past the post with the jockey still mounted,  no protests and  correct weight etc.) )   not on the subjective biases of the judges  

  "O, that  filly looks pretty, let's make her first  

[Habitat]

16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Fortunately, races are won or lost on objective, criteria  referenced assessments, (eg first horse past the post with the jockey still mounted,  no protests and  correct weight etc.) )   not on the subjective biases of the judges  

  "O, that  filly looks pretty, let's make her first  

How true, it is a case of "handsome is, as handsome does".

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

What nonsense.  Spirituality has been a total dead end for the entirety of human existence.  It was only when we turned away from the pointless introspection and began to review what we knew about the physical world that we ever made any progress.  

Well, there is absolutely nothing that you can do to show anybody something that would indicate the existence of a soul, other than the 21 grams of poop they drop in their pants when they die.

ORLY.

Straight up evidence that your previous statement was a lie.  Or are you saying that prior to the age of 4 you were an atheist?  An age when most people are barely capable of language and not really au fait with the philosophy of comparative religions.

So, if the soul is immaterial, you admit it doesn't exist, except as an idea in your head?

As words in the dictionary, yes.  In reality they describe obsolete metaphysical ideas,

So, basically this "soul" is really just consciousness.  Quelle surprise! (jk)

No, that is just sappy emotionalism posing as something more profound than it is.  The right syringe full of neurochemistry, or the right shock to the brain can generate those exact effects.  If you are going to equate emotions to the soul, perhaps you are on the autism spectrum and don't know it buddy, just sayin'.

Agai you define spirituality too narrowly It was spirituality which created the great architecture of the world the great art music literature etc. We used science and  technology to build, but spirituality to imagine design and create.

You and i are the evidences for a human spirit/soul  If you had none you would simply be another animal .

I was reading books while still aged 2. I was taught to think, use logic, etc from birth. My parents modelled how to behave and to think 

yep I was still a child and it wasn't until i was 3 or 4 that i became conscious of my own self and identity. BUT for a private reason i began working on my mind from  first memory I was working on it as  a preschooler learning to control and use it  My parents strongly aided me in making my mind as good as it could be.

We came from  a poor family and the y saw education as the only way i could do well in the world    Many adults underestimate the potential of a infant /child.  I got incredibly lucky with my parents. 

I don't know what i was as an infant All human infants construct their own god concepts so i probably did, but my parents educated me out of that.  I was an atheist from  the first time i can remember

does love exist?

All thoughts concepts etc have a material basis ie a specific pattern of neural energy and connectivity in the brain which in recent years can be seen measured and transferred electronically  The y cant exist without that and the y ARE material ln the that sense. However it is the immaterial properties of thgs like love and beauty which drive humans  ie the symbolism abstract constructs and other cognitive power which makes them so powerful  Ask why a flag or a national anthem moves people so much. 

Look at the use of psychology via choice of images, fonts, and text, in magazine /online advertising 

lol nothing at all metaphysical about the human spirit or soul. it is an evolved physical  property of human cognition like our abilty to use logic/reason.Would you call those abilities metaphysical  or immaterial? 

yep the soul spirit is a quality or artefact of the evolved level of human slef aware consciousness. Nothing more.

BUT it remains the most powerful force in a human being.

it allows us to consciously choose to do either good or evil to consciously choose to love, hate, seek vengeance, or give forgiveness, it is how why we can create things of beauty,  or desire to destroy them   

If your last comment was true then other animals would cry from  joy. They do not despite having identical neurochemical transmitters it is our awareness and our abstract symbolic attachments in our language of the mind  which enable us to feel and thuis express  these things intellectually.

  I suspect you don't read a lot, and particularly not a lot of fiction, or you would understand this whole concept  better. 

Sorry to disappoint, but no indication of autism or aspergers. It is just intelligence, education, and experience,  shining out of me (you an choose which orifice:)   

I find it incredible that any adult human can't recognise their spirit and their soul, but it does explain a lot to know that some don't  think the y have either.

We all do.   Maybe some don't want to recognise it. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Dejarma]

20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Nup I am compelled to correct error and educate ignorance.  

who's ignorant? 

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

For the record, I am immensely pro-aspie.  Some of the best academics and my finest friends are on the spectrum (albeit high functioning), and their contribution to the world is laudable and profound.  I opted for mentioning the autism spectrum, as the alternative is the sociopathy/psychopathy spectrum where people have their emotional responses "turned right down" to the point where they need extreme events to cause even slight emotional reactions.  I seriously hope Mr Walker isn't one of those, for everybody's sake.

do you seriously see the differences between  me and yourself in that light  Lol I have been successful in everything in my life, plus very happy and content  I am loved respected by almost everyone i have ever been incontact with  and   I have never in my adult life been lonely depressed or anxious ( although a bit stressed at time during my working life) So how on earth do you, and some others, see anything wrong with me ?Unusual yes but in a positive empowered way.  I worry about people who CANNOT  control their  emotional responses and eventually harm themselves or others 

Nor  do i suffer from any psychological problems at all.

Rather the reverse. i have an extremely strong positive psychological profile(which should also be apparent in some of my posts)  

I choose my emotional responses to give the most constructive outcomes eg i don't feel anger because that is nonproductive. I do feel love, compassion, altruism, because those are constructive concepts  i feel enough grief to be good for me but no more.  

It took years of work and discipline to master my emotional responses, but it has served me well all my life. I have never been in trouble with the law and get on well with everyone. Ive never struck  another person in anger and never said an unkind word deliberately to anyone (with perhaps an occasional exception for some posters here )    I've never lost my temper or lost control of my behaviours (and neither,in all their lives, did either of my parents. )

To me this is the human norm, and how we should all be.

But i can see how others might think me unusual as the y struggle with their animal emotions and drivers, and all those chemicals controlling their behaviours, rather than them taking control  and ownership of how they feel and act.    

[Mr Walker]

6 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

who's ignorant? 

Many posters are ignorant of facts, in many areas, and make some silly claims ,which are easily disproved.

  There is nothing wrong with ignorance.

We all begin life in that  state, but to deliberately remain ignorant (often to validate a belief or value)  in a world so filled with information, is inexcusable

I am not speaking of subjective opinions here, which are  all comparatively legitimate, but simple ignorance of facts  (both in being unaware of them and of ignoring them)  

in this example, both the filmmaker and some posters seem ignorant of the fact that both human spirit and soul are broad concepts.

Religious spirituality and soul fall within this broad spectrum, but are only a part of it. Humanists, by definition, recognise the unique quality of the human spirit or soul 

This is not magical,  mystical, immortal  or anything like that, but is  product of evolved brain and mind function which is unique(as far as we know) to human beings 

So humans do possess a spirit or soul.

This  can be proven but not disproven. 

 A religious/ immortal soul, in any form  is a narrower concept. It is possible, but as yet unproven, and unprovable, so is a matter of belief /disbelief  

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Dejarma]

37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

So humans do possess a spirit or soul.

This  can be proven but not disproven. 

oh right- i'll work that out later

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Fortunately, races are won or lost on objective, criteria  referenced assessments, (eg first horse past the post with the jockey still mounted,  no protests and  correct weight etc.) )   not on the subjective biases of the judges  

  "O, that  filly looks pretty, let's make her first  

Hiding on the sidelines, throwing cans and calling instead of contributing is cowardice and weakness. Races aren't won or lost on that either 

[Habitat]

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Hiding on the sidelines, throwing cans and calling instead of contributing is cowardice and weakness. Races aren't won or lost on that either 

Your idea of contributing, is toeing the line you currently adhere to. Given that you have had a lot of seismic shifts in the past, we really don't know that you have finally settled on the "right" ideas.

[UFO_Monster]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:58 PM, Habitat said:

Right, these people might have genuinely believed what they told you, or were just fobbing you off, when it looked like you were reaching out for help. Either way, I'm not reading anything into it that would be decisive about "God".

Whether a god is involved or not, my main point stands. My four year old niece once claimed that she had a unicorn under her bed. Only she could talk to it, and she couldn't prove that it existed. But by crackie, there's a unicorn under her bed. Nothing I say could change that in her mind.

If people believed in unicorns as much as they did in souls, they'd be using the same justification: "You can't disprove that unicorns don't exist." It's not my job to disprove that a unicorn lives under my niece's bed. It's my niece's job to prove that there is, in fact, a horned horse stuffed under her rather tiny mattress for some odd reason.

This same argument applies to souls. You can't prove that a soul exists. Nobody can. Provide proof, and I'll accept it. You may even win a Nobel Prize if you manage to do so.

Edited January 5, 2020 by UFO_Monster

[Alchopwn]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

do you seriously see the differences between  me and yourself in that light  Lol I have been successful in everything in my life, plus very happy and content  I am loved respected by almost everyone i have ever been incontact with  and   I have never in my adult life been lonely depressed or anxious ( although a bit stressed at time during my working life) So how on earth do you, and some others, see anything wrong with me ?Unusual yes but in a positive empowered way.  I worry about people who CANNOT  control their  emotional responses and eventually harm themselves or others 

This comment reminds me of that South Park episode where Cartman holds a tea party for all his dolls, Mr. Walker:  Cartman's Tea Party video 

Clearly you don't see yourself as others see you.  That flaw in your psychological makeup's basic theory of mind bespeaks pretty big and undiagnosed problems.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Alchopwn

[Habitat]

19 minutes ago, UFO_Monster said:

Whether a god is involved or not, my main point stands. My four year old niece once claimed that she had a unicorn under her bed. Only she could talk to it, and she couldn't prove that it existed. But by crackie, there's a unicorn under her bed. Nothing I say could change that in her mind.

If people believed in unicorns as much as they did in souls, they'd be using the same justification: "You can't disprove that unicorns don't exist." It's not my job to disprove that a unicorn lives under my niece's bed. It's my niece's job to prove that there is, in fact, a horned horse stuffed under her rather tiny mattress for some odd reason.

This same argument applies to souls. You can't prove that a soul exists. Nobody can. Provide proof, and I'll accept it. You may even win a Nobel Prize if you manage to do so.

what are you worrying about it for ?

[UFO_Monster]

Just now, Habitat said:

what are you worrying about it for ?

Worrying about what? If it's the unicorn, I'm not worried. I told her myself that she probably sees something that I don't. (Keep in mind that she is 4 years old. I want her to live like a kid, since she is one.)

I'm also not worried about anything regarding a soul. I'm not afraid to die. I have no reason to believe that my being will exist in an afterlife when I pass away. That doesn't scare me. What I AM worried about is people throwing away logic and scientific reason in favor of things that cannot be proven to exist for the sake of maintaining a fantasy. The reason I mentioned God earlier was because the two subjects are of the same thread.

I can't disprove the existence of a soul, or a god, or an afterlife. But nobody seems to be able to prove any of these three things either. Yet they'll throw away all reason just because they're afraid of the possibility that they may be wrong. It's one of the main reasons why I oppose spiritualism and religion beliefs as a whole. However, I oppose the latter far more. I'm pretty sure you're able to see the impact such beliefs have in politics in the United States. I won't go into that here, as it is not relevant to the current topic at hand, which focuses solely on the supposed existence of the soul.

Just saying...there's nothing out there documenting the existence of such a thing. That was my main point.

[Habitat]

Just now, UFO_Monster said:

Worrying about what? If it's the unicorn, I'm not worried. I told her myself that she probably sees something that I don't. (Keep in mind that she is 4 years old. I want her to live like a kid, since she is one.)

I'm also not worried about anything regarding a soul. I'm not afraid to die. I have no reason to believe that my being will exist in an afterlife when I pass away. That doesn't scare me. What I AM worried about is people throwing away logic and scientific reason in favor of things that cannot be proven to exist for the sake of maintaining a fantasy. The reason I mentioned God earlier was because the two subjects are of the same thread.

I can't disprove the existence of a soul, or a god, or an afterlife. But nobody seems to be able to prove any of these three things either. Yet they'll throw away all reason just because they're afraid of the possibility that they may be wrong. It's one of the main reasons why I oppose spiritualism and religion beliefs as a whole. However, I oppose the latter far more. I'm pretty sure you're able to see the impact such beliefs have in politics in the United States. I won't go into that here, as it is not relevant to the current topic at hand, which focuses solely on the supposed existence of the soul.

Just saying...there's nothing out there documenting the existence of such a thing. That was my main point.

Well just move on, I can't imagine myself loitering on a proposition I was convinced was void.

[UFO_Monster]

1 minute ago, Habitat said:

Well just move on, I can't imagine myself loitering on a proposition I was convinced was void.

Well, if I did that, then what's the point of having a folder named "Spirituality vs Skepticism"? People debate here all the time. That's what it's for.