Imaginarynumber1 Posted January 13, 2020 #126 Share Posted January 13, 2020 6 hours ago, Guyver said: Only if you know they exist and have the ability to measure them. You can’t measure anything you don’t know exists, except for dark matter lol. Things that don't exist can't be measures beacuse THEY DON'T EXIST. Like souls. What a stupid concept. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 13, 2020 #127 Share Posted January 13, 2020 The thread title makes me feel like im back at home with mom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 14, 2020 #128 Share Posted January 14, 2020 18 hours ago, Imaginarynumber1 said: Things that don't exist can't be measures beacuse THEY DON'T EXIST. Like souls. What a stupid concept. Love exists. Can you measure it ? Well yes, actually you can measure the physical pattern of electrical energy in the brain which IS love. Same for the soul. However, in both cases you can also measure its existence from observing the effects of it, and what happens differently to other animals (or some humans) which/who, do not have a soul You can measure the effects of different types of souls in individuals, on how they behave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 14, 2020 #129 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) On 1/13/2020 at 1:10 PM, Guyver said: Animals dream and we know this from observation. When you see a dog kick it’s legs in its sleep, you watch an animal dream. As to the rest of your post, no complaints. Not really correct that we KNOW this. Science had not (as of 2019) been able to show that the leg movement was actually connected to a dream. It is logical to assume it might be (because sometimes in humans it is, and sometimes not) But last i read we don't actually know. Becsue dogs cant talk we can't check if the y dream, but as imaging of brain activity improves, we might be able to see the images in their mind while they dream (if they do) Edited January 14, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imaginarynumber1 Posted January 14, 2020 #130 Share Posted January 14, 2020 4 hours ago, Mr Walker said: However, in both cases you can also measure its existence from observing the effects of it, and what happens differently to other animals (or some humans) which/who, do not have a soul You can measure the effects of different types of souls in individuals, on how they behave. You are making things up. Please show me the measurements that indicate a "soul" or a lack of a "soul" 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted January 14, 2020 #131 Share Posted January 14, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 11:25 AM, docyabut2 said: Man is not a soul, but a soul On 12/30/2019 at 6:44 PM, Imaginarynumber1 said: And so we can thereby dismiss all spiritual matters as pointless “The soul is immortal, and ‘tis no possession of thine own, but of Providence, And after the body is wasted away, like a swift horse freed from its traces, It lightly leaps forward and mingles itself with the light air, Loathing the spell of harsh and painful servitude which it had endured. But for thee, what use is there of this? Someday when thou art no more thou shalt believe it. So why, as long as thou art among living beings, dost thou explore these mysteries?” ~ Spirit of Apollonius of Tyana to his disciple, The Life Of Apollonius of Tyana — last page, Book VIII, Philostratus, c. 170 - 245 AD https://www.amazon.com/Philostratus-Apollonius-Tyana-Classical-Library/dp/0674996143?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ipad-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0674996143 I like it. Its’ friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted January 14, 2020 #132 Share Posted January 14, 2020 On 1/13/2020 at 4:45 AM, Farmer77 said: The thread title makes me feel like im back at home with mom. The title reminds me I'm a ginger... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted January 14, 2020 #133 Share Posted January 14, 2020 3 hours ago, XenoFish said: The title reminds me I'm a ginger... A ginger? Prejudice, Tim Minchin. I’m sure you’ve seen. It. I’d post the vid but I’d probably get a warning. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Festina Posted January 14, 2020 #134 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Festina Lente said: A ginger? Prejudice, Tim Minchin. I’m sure you’ve seen. It. I’d post the vid but I’d probably get a warning. ; ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 15, 2020 #135 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Imaginarynumber1 said: You are making things up. Please show me the measurements that indicate a "soul" or a lack of a "soul" Do you know that love exists as a physical quality? (or hate) If it does not, then how do you explain the human behaviors based upon love, hate, or other qualities like altruism,compassion, envy etc of mind (not body) Hopefully you do know that love exists if you do know it exists then HOW do you know this ? How do you measure it ? How do you know when you have love, and when you do not? Scientifically we can measure the brain activity which creates our soul or spirit, and see how different thoughts are generated and formed I suspect you are one of those people l so hung up on the religious aspect of soul (and we have a soul even if we are atheist because souls has nothing to do with religion) that because of anti religious feelings, you don't want to admit to having a soul. However if you can appreciate art, music, nature, etc., as abstract and symbolic things of beauty, you have a soul if you can feel sorrow, grief, as intellectual emotions then you have a soul Observe anyone's behaviour for a while and you will learn the nature of their soul or spirit Some have strong, powerful, constructive and creative souls. Some are strong but destructive. Many are just "ordinary", and are used to live and to love . humans began to evolve souls as they evolved sophisticated self awareness, and complex language skills. Souls and spirits are a cognitive constructs of human minds' . There is nothing mysterious or magical about them, given current knowledge in neuroscience and cognition, ( except in how wonderful the y are) and they are as mortal as our brain is The soul can die while a human lives, once their brain is sufficiently damaged that it loses self awareness quote The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1] John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_spirit https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit Edited January 15, 2020 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted January 15, 2020 #136 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Do you know that love exists as a physical quality? (or hate) If it does not, then how do you explain the human behaviors based upon love, hate, or other qualities like altruism,compassion, envy etc of mind (not body) Hopefully you do know that love exists if you do know it exists then HOW do you know this ? How do you measure it ? How do you know when you have love, and when you do not? Scientifically we can measure the brain activity which creates our soul or spirit, and see how different thoughts are generated and formed I suspect you are one of those people l so hung up on the religious aspect of soul (and we have a soul even if we are atheist because souls has nothing to do with religion) that because of anti religious feelings, you don't want to admit to having a soul. However if you can appreciate art, music, nature, etc., as abstract and symbolic things of beauty, you have a soul if you can feel sorrow, grief, as intellectual emotions then you have a soul Observe anyone's behaviour for a while and you will learn the nature of their soul or spirit Some have strong, powerful, constructive and creative souls. Some are strong but destructive. Many are just "ordinary", and are used to live and to love . humans began to evolve souls as they evolved sophisticated self awareness, and complex language skills. Souls and spirits are a cognitive constructs of human minds' . There is nothing mysterious or magical about them, given current knowledge in neuroscience and cognition, ( except in how wonderful the y are) and they are as mortal as our brain is The soul can die while a human lives, once their brain is sufficiently damaged that it loses self awareness quote The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1] John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_spirit https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit Walls we can measure love read up on The Triangular Theory of Love. One way to measure love is to look at behaviors that people engage in to express love. Chapman (1995) theorized that there were five broad classes of behaviors that people would engage in to express love: (1) words of affirmation, (2) spending quality time, (3) giving gifts, (4) acts of service, and (5) physical touch. Goddard 2007 developed a survey instrument to measure expressions of love. They created a series of questions that were designed to measure one (and only one) of the different behaviors that Chapman laid out. These involved asking questions about how a lover does things like: "giving presents," "offers encouragement," "spends time with me," "holds my hand," and "does yard work." The goal of this work was mainly to see if the Chapman classes of expressions of love matched the kinds of behaviors that people wanted in a lover. The researchers administered the survey to a few hundred people, and in general found that the Chapman classes were a good set of high-level descriptions. People who tended to want one kind of behavior in a lover, e.g., receiving words of affirmation, also wanted other kinds of behavior from that class, e.g., receiving compliments. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175473 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love We can certainly define the soul but how do we measure for it? Edited January 15, 2020 by Sherapy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted January 15, 2020 #137 Share Posted January 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sherapy said: These involved asking questions about how a lover does things like: "giving presents," "offers encouragement," "spends time with me," "holds my hand," and "does yard work." That is hilarious ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 15, 2020 #138 Share Posted January 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, Sherapy said: Walls we can measure love read up on The Triangular Theory of Love. One way to measure love is to look at behaviors that people engage in to express love. Chapman (1995) theorized that there were five broad classes of behaviors that people would engage in to express love: (1) words of affirmation, (2) spending quality time, (3) giving gifts, (4) acts of service, and (5) physical touch. Goddard 2007 developed a survey instrument to measure expressions of love. They created a series of questions that were designed to measure one (and only one) of the different behaviors that Chapman laid out. These involved asking questions about how a lover does things like: "giving presents," "offers encouragement," "spends time with me," "holds my hand," and "does yard work." The goal of this work was mainly to see if the Chapman classes of expressions of love matched the kinds of behaviors that people wanted in a lover. The researchers administered the survey to a few hundred people, and in general found that the Chapman classes were a good set of high-level descriptions. People who tended to want one kind of behavior in a lover, e.g., receiving words of affirmation, also wanted other kinds of behavior from that class, e.g., receiving compliments. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175473 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love We can certainly define the soul but how do we measure for it? Both by observation of behaviors, as your source points out, but also by modern brain imaging, measuring the self aware activities which give us a soul ie A scientist can identify the specific pattern of brain energy which is love (or anger or hate) in a human brain Plus, of course, any one who thinks about t for even a short time realises they have e spirit or a soul which makes them who they are. Sometimes it makes them sing with joy. Sometimes it feels intense pain or sadness at a loss. It can make them feel guilt, remorse, compassion etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted January 15, 2020 #139 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Both by observation of behaviors, as your source points out, but also by modern brain imaging, measuring the self aware activities which give us a soul ie A scientist can identify the specific pattern of brain energy which is love (or anger or hate) in a human brain Plus, of course, any one who thinks about t for even a short time realises they have e spirit or a soul which makes them who they are. Sometimes it makes them sing with joy. Sometimes it feels intense pain or sadness at a loss. It can make them feel guilt, remorse, compassion etc Emotions would explain your claim much more effectively than a spirit or a soul. While your effort is great, I don’t think you have made a case for the soul being tangible. Edited January 15, 2020 by Sherapy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 15, 2020 #140 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Just now, Sherapy said: Emotions would explain your claim much more effectively than a spirit or a soul. Intellectual emotions, which humans have, as opposed to physical emotions which other primates have, ARE an indicator of soul or spirit We only have intellectual emotions because we have a spirit or souls ie the y all evolved together as we evolved higher and higher order language, thought, and slef aware consciousness. eg many advanced animas have an evolved physical love for their offspring evolved by nature to make them care for the offspring However human love is of a different nature and order altogether. It is an artifact of mind ,not of body, and consists of powerful learned connections in symbolic and abstract thoughts Thus we can write love poems,give love tokens, produce art and music, based upon our intellectual understanding of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted January 15, 2020 #141 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Intellectual emotions, which humans have, as opposed to physical emotions which other primates have, ARE an indicator of soul or spirit We only have intellectual emotions because we have a spirit or souls ie the y all evolved together as we evolved higher and higher order language, thought, and slef aware consciousness. eg many advanced animas have an evolved physical love for their offspring evolved by nature to make them care for the offspring However human love is of a different nature and order altogether. It is an artifact of mind ,not of body, and consists of powerful learned connections in symbolic and abstract thoughts Thus we can write love poems,give love tokens, produce art and music, based upon our intellectual understanding of love. Intellectual emotions? Edited January 15, 2020 by Sherapy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 15, 2020 #142 Share Posted January 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Sherapy said: Intellectual emotions? Human emotions like love are not just chemical or biological emotions. They are intellectual constructs (eg abstract ideas like; love, loyalty, honour, duty ) which we learn, imagine, design, build/ construct, maintain, evolve and change etc., using our minds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted January 15, 2020 #143 Share Posted January 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Sherapy said: While your effort is great, I don’t think you have made a case for the soul being tangible. Was he saying it was "tangible" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted January 15, 2020 #144 Share Posted January 15, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 12:15 PM, sci-nerd said: Is "ginger" slang for spirituality/religion? If so, it's not! It's just science taking on a subject, it had previously wrongfully deemed non-scientific. In fact there's a whole section of the article devoted to consideration and anti bias. “Ginger” is a term meaning people with red hair. In fact, so deep is the stereotype that “Ginger” from Gilligains Island was a beautiful redhead. “Gingers” look better on camera than other people, that’s why so many of them are movie stars. Anyway, according to modern science and understanding as I know it, gingers are predominate survivors of the Neanderthal population. At least, the genes we have left anyway. Gingers come from European highlands. So, what does this have to do with the existence of the soul? Everything and nothing. No one knows for sure if we have a soul or not - or at least can’t prove it one way or the other... I think we have a soul- or spirit- based on the nature of the universe and mathematics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #145 Share Posted January 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, Guyver said: In fact, so deep is the stereotype that “Ginger” from Gilligains Island was a beautiful redhead. Huh I guess I thought that was why redheads were called gingers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted January 15, 2020 #146 Share Posted January 15, 2020 7 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Huh I guess I thought that was why redheads were called gingers. Ironically, I preferred Mary Ann as an adolescent. As a full grown man.....I like Ginger. Lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted January 15, 2020 #147 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) PS. Sorry, I forgot to say that colloquially speaking, in slang terms.....”ginger” can also refer to someone who’s “new to the scene” a newbie, or rookie if you will. FWIW. Edited January 15, 2020 by Guyver Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 15, 2020 #148 Share Posted January 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Sherapy said: Intellectual emotions? Human emotions like love are not just chemical or biological emotions. They are intellectual constructs (eg abstract ideas like; love, loyalty, honour, duty ) which we learn, imagine, design, build/ construct, maintain, evolve and change etc., using our minds. Just to repeat and highlight quote The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1] John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2 Added this because i had to go off and leave the original post unfinished and then I couldn't edit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imaginarynumber1 Posted January 15, 2020 #149 Share Posted January 15, 2020 12 hours ago, Mr Walker said: Do you know that love exists as a physical quality? (or hate) If it does not, then how do you explain the human behaviors based upon love, hate, or other qualities like altruism,compassion, envy etc of mind (not body) Hopefully you do know that love exists if you do know it exists then HOW do you know this ? How do you measure it ? How do you know when you have love, and when you do not? Scientifically we can measure the brain activity which creates our soul or spirit, and see how different thoughts are generated and formed I suspect you are one of those people l so hung up on the religious aspect of soul (and we have a soul even if we are atheist because souls has nothing to do with religion) that because of anti religious feelings, you don't want to admit to having a soul. However if you can appreciate art, music, nature, etc., as abstract and symbolic things of beauty, you have a soul if you can feel sorrow, grief, as intellectual emotions then you have a soul Observe anyone's behaviour for a while and you will learn the nature of their soul or spirit Some have strong, powerful, constructive and creative souls. Some are strong but destructive. Many are just "ordinary", and are used to live and to love . humans began to evolve souls as they evolved sophisticated self awareness, and complex language skills. Souls and spirits are a cognitive constructs of human minds' . There is nothing mysterious or magical about them, given current knowledge in neuroscience and cognition, ( except in how wonderful the y are) and they are as mortal as our brain is The soul can die while a human lives, once their brain is sufficiently damaged that it loses self awareness quote The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1] John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_spirit https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit I know "love" exists. I know it can be measured. Oxytocin and serotonin. So what chemicals measure the "soul", specifically. What can you look at in the brain and say, "that's the soul". And I dont mean creativity, which you seam to think is the same things. I'm talking about the religious concept of a soul, the thing that is you that exists indepent of your physical body. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted January 17, 2020 #150 Share Posted January 17, 2020 On 1/13/2020 at 1:28 AM, Imaginarynumber1 said: Things that don't exist can't be measures beacuse THEY DON'T EXIST. Like souls. What a stupid concept. There is a difference between things that are not known to exist and things that don’t exist. Right? So, what doesn’t exist - you don’t know. And things that exist of which you are not aware of are also not known. Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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