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zep73

You don't have a soul

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Imaginarynumber1
6 hours ago, Guyver said:

Only if you know they exist and have the ability to measure them.  You can’t measure anything you don’t know exists, except for dark matter lol.

Things that don't exist can't be measures beacuse  THEY DON'T EXIST. Like souls. What a stupid concept.

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Farmer77

The thread title makes me feel like im back at home with mom.

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Mr Walker
18 hours ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Things that don't exist can't be measures beacuse  THEY DON'T EXIST. Like souls. What a stupid concept.

Love exists.

Can you measure it ?

Well yes, actually you can measure the physical pattern of electrical energy in the brain which IS love.  

Same for the soul.

However, in both cases you can also measure its existence from  observing the effects of it, and what happens differently to other animals (or some humans)  which/who, do not have a soul  You can measure the effects of different types of souls in individuals, on how they behave. 

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Mr Walker
On 1/13/2020 at 1:10 PM, Guyver said:

Animals dream and we know this from observation.   When you see a dog kick it’s legs in its sleep, you watch an animal dream.

As to the rest of your post, no complaints.

Not really correct that we KNOW this.

Science had not (as of 2019) been able to show that the leg movement was  actually connected to a dream.

It is logical to assume it might be (because sometimes in humans it is, and sometimes not)  But last i read we don't actually know.

Becsue dogs cant talk we can't check if the y dream, but as imaging of brain activity  improves, we might be able to see the images in their mind while they dream (if they do) 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Imaginarynumber1
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

However, in both cases you can also measure its existence from  observing the effects of it, and what happens differently to other animals (or some humans)  which/who, do not have a soul  You can measure the effects of different types of souls in individuals, on how they behave. 

You are making things up. Please show me the measurements that indicate a "soul" or a lack of a "soul"

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Festina
On 12/30/2019 at 11:25 AM, docyabut2 said:

Man is not a soul, but a soul

 

On 12/30/2019 at 6:44 PM, Imaginarynumber1 said:

And so we can thereby dismiss all spiritual matters as pointless 

“The soul is immortal, and ‘tis no possession of thine own, but of Providence,

And after the body is wasted away, like a swift horse freed from its traces,

It lightly leaps forward and mingles itself with the light air,

Loathing the spell of harsh and painful servitude which it had endured.

But for thee, what use is there of this? Someday when thou art no more thou shalt believe it.

So why, as long as thou art among living beings, dost thou explore these mysteries?”

~ Spirit of Apollonius of Tyana to his disciple,

The Life Of Apollonius of Tyana — last  page, Book VIII,  Philostratus, c. 170 - 245 AD 

https://www.amazon.com/Philostratus-Apollonius-Tyana-Classical-Library/dp/0674996143?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ipad-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0674996143

I like it.  Its’ friendly.  

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XenoFish
On 1/13/2020 at 4:45 AM, Farmer77 said:

The thread title makes me feel like im back at home with mom.

The title reminds me I'm a ginger...

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Festina
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The title reminds me I'm a ginger...

A ginger?  Prejudice,  Tim Minchin.    I’m sure you’ve seen. It.  I’d post the vid but I’d probably get a warning.  

 

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Festina
1 hour ago, Festina Lente said:

A ginger?  Prejudice,  Tim Minchin.    I’m sure you’ve seen. It.  I’d post the vid but I’d probably get a warning.  

 

; ) 

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Mr Walker
17 hours ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

You are making things up. Please show me the measurements that indicate a "soul" or a lack of a "soul"

Do you know that love exists as a physical quality? (or hate) 

If it does not, then how do you explain the human behaviors based upon love, hate, or other qualities like altruism,compassion, envy etc  of mind (not body) 

Hopefully you  do know that love exists 

if you do know it exists then HOW do you know this ? How do you measure it ?

How do you know when you have love, and when you do not? 

Scientifically we can measure the brain activity which creates our soul or spirit, and see  how different thoughts are generated  and formed

I suspect you are one of those  people l so hung up on the religious  aspect of soul (and we have a soul even if we are atheist because souls has nothing to do with religion) that because of anti religious feelings, you don't want to admit to having a soul. However if you  can appreciate art, music, nature, etc., as abstract and symbolic things of beauty, you have a soul  if you can feel sorrow, grief, as intellectual emotions then you have a soul 

Observe anyone's behaviour for a while and you  will learn the nature of their soul or spirit Some have strong, powerful, constructive and creative souls.

Some are strong but destructive.

Many are just "ordinary", and are used to live and to love .

humans began  to evolve souls as they evolved sophisticated self  awareness, and complex language skills.

Souls and spirits are a cognitive constructs of human minds' .    There is nothing mysterious or magical about them, given current knowledge in neuroscience and cognition, ( except in how wonderful the y are)  and they are as mortal as our brain is The soul can die while a human lives, once their brain is sufficiently damaged that it loses self  awareness  

quote

The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity.

In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1]

John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_spirit

https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit

Edited by Mr Walker

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Sherapy
14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Do you know that love exists as a physical quality? (or hate) 

If it does not, then how do you explain the human behaviors based upon love, hate, or other qualities like altruism,compassion, envy etc  of mind (not body) 

Hopefully you  do know that love exists 

if you do know it exists then HOW do you know this ? How do you measure it ?

How do you know when you have love, and when you do not? 

Scientifically we can measure the brain activity which creates our soul or spirit, and see  how different thoughts are generated  and formed

I suspect you are one of those  people l so hung up on the religious  aspect of soul (and we have a soul even if we are atheist because souls has nothing to do with religion) that because of anti religious feelings, you don't want to admit to having a soul. However if you  can appreciate art, music, nature, etc., as abstract and symbolic things of beauty, you have a soul  if you can feel sorrow, grief, as intellectual emotions then you have a soul 

Observe anyone's behaviour for a while and you  will learn the nature of their soul or spirit Some have strong, powerful, constructive and creative souls.

Some are strong but destructive.

Many are just "ordinary", and are used to live and to love .

humans began  to evolve souls as they evolved sophisticated self  awareness, and complex language skills.

Souls and spirits are a cognitive constructs of human minds' .    There is nothing mysterious or magical about them, given current knowledge in neuroscience and cognition, ( except in how wonderful the y are)  and they are as mortal as our brain is The soul can die while a human lives, once their brain is sufficiently damaged that it loses self  awareness  

quote

The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity.

In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1]

John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_spirit

https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit

Walls we can measure love read up on The Triangular Theory of Love. 
 

One way to measure love is to look at behaviors that people engage in to express love. Chapman (1995) theorized that there were five broad classes of behaviors that people would engage in to express love: (1) words of affirmation, (2) spending quality time, (3) giving gifts, (4) acts of service, and (5) physical touch.

Goddard 2007 developed a survey instrument to measure expressions of love. They created a series of questions that were designed to measure one (and only one) of the different behaviors that Chapman laid out. These involved asking questions about how a lover does things like: "giving presents," "offers encouragement," "spends time with me," "holds my hand," and "does yard work." 

The goal of this work was mainly to see if the Chapman classes of expressions of love matched the kinds of behaviors that people wanted in a lover. The researchers administered the survey to a few hundred people, and in general found that the Chapman classes were a good set of high-level descriptions. People who tended to want one kind of behavior in a lover, e.g., receiving words of affirmation, also wanted other kinds of behavior from that class, e.g., receiving compliments.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175473

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love

We can certainly define  the soul but how do we measure for it?

Edited by Sherapy
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Habitat
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

These involved asking questions about how a lover does things like: "giving presents," "offers encouragement," "spends time with me," "holds my hand," and "does yard work." 

That is hilarious !

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Mr Walker
6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Walls we can measure love read up on The Triangular Theory of Love. 
 

One way to measure love is to look at behaviors that people engage in to express love. Chapman (1995) theorized that there were five broad classes of behaviors that people would engage in to express love: (1) words of affirmation, (2) spending quality time, (3) giving gifts, (4) acts of service, and (5) physical touch.

Goddard 2007 developed a survey instrument to measure expressions of love. They created a series of questions that were designed to measure one (and only one) of the different behaviors that Chapman laid out. These involved asking questions about how a lover does things like: "giving presents," "offers encouragement," "spends time with me," "holds my hand," and "does yard work." 

The goal of this work was mainly to see if the Chapman classes of expressions of love matched the kinds of behaviors that people wanted in a lover. The researchers administered the survey to a few hundred people, and in general found that the Chapman classes were a good set of high-level descriptions. People who tended to want one kind of behavior in a lover, e.g., receiving words of affirmation, also wanted other kinds of behavior from that class, e.g., receiving compliments.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175473

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love

We can certainly define  the soul but how do we measure for it?

Both by observation of behaviors, as your source points out, but also by modern brain imaging, measuring the self  aware activities which give us a soul 

ie   A scientist can identify the specific pattern of brain energy which is love (or anger or hate) in a human brain 

Plus, of course, any one who thinks about t for even a short time realises they have e spirit or a soul which makes them who they are.   Sometimes it makes them sing with joy.  Sometimes it feels intense pain or sadness at a loss. It can make them feel guilt, remorse, compassion etc  

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Sherapy
8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Both by observation of behaviors, as your source points out, but also by modern brain imaging, measuring the self  aware activities which give us a soul 

ie   A scientist can identify the specific pattern of brain energy which is love (or anger or hate) in a human brain 

Plus, of course, any one who thinks about t for even a short time realises they have e spirit or a soul which makes them who they are.   Sometimes it makes them sing with joy.  Sometimes it feels intense pain or sadness at a loss. It can make them feel guilt, remorse, compassion etc  

Emotions would explain your claim much more effectively than a spirit or a soul. 
 

While your effort is great, I don’t think you have made a case for the soul being tangible. 

 

 

 


 

 

Edited by Sherapy

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Mr Walker
Just now, Sherapy said:

Emotions would explain your claim much more effectively than a spirit or a soul. 
 


 

 

Intellectual emotions, which humans have, as opposed to physical emotions which other primates have, ARE an indicator of soul or spirit 

We only have intellectual emotions because we have a spirit or souls ie the y all evolved together as we evolved higher and higher order language, thought, and slef aware consciousness.

eg many advanced animas have an evolved physical love for their offspring evolved by nature to make them care for the offspring 

However human love is of a different nature and order altogether.  It is an artifact of mind ,not of body,  and consists of powerful learned connections in symbolic and abstract thoughts 

Thus  we can write love poems,give love tokens,  produce art and music, based upon our intellectual understanding of love. 

 

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Sherapy
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Intellectual emotions, which humans have, as opposed to physical emotions which other primates have, ARE an indicator of soul or spirit 

We only have intellectual emotions because we have a spirit or souls ie the y all evolved together as we evolved higher and higher order language, thought, and slef aware consciousness.

eg many advanced animas have an evolved physical love for their offspring evolved by nature to make them care for the offspring 

However human love is of a different nature and order altogether.  It is an artifact of mind ,not of body,  and consists of powerful learned connections in symbolic and abstract thoughts 

Thus  we can write love poems,give love tokens,  produce art and music, based upon our intellectual understanding of love. 

 

Intellectual emotions? 

Edited by Sherapy

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Intellectual emotions? 

Human emotions like love are not just chemical or biological emotions.

They are intellectual constructs (eg abstract ideas like; love, loyalty, honour, duty )  which we learn, imagine, design,  build/ construct,  maintain, evolve and change  etc., using our minds.  

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

While your effort is great, I don’t think you have made a case for the soul being tangible. 

Was he saying it was "tangible" ?

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Guyver
On 12/30/2019 at 12:15 PM, sci-nerd said:

Is "ginger" slang for spirituality/religion? If so, it's not! It's just science taking on a subject, it had previously wrongfully deemed non-scientific.
In fact there's a whole section of the article devoted to consideration and anti bias.

“Ginger” is a term meaning people with red hair.  In fact, so deep is the stereotype that “Ginger” from Gilligains Island was a beautiful redhead.  

“Gingers” look better on camera than other people, that’s why so many of them are movie stars.

Anyway, according to modern science and understanding as I know it, gingers are predominate survivors of the Neanderthal population.  At least, the genes we have left anyway.  Gingers come from European highlands.

So, what does this have to do with the existence of the soul?  

Everything and nothing.  No one knows for sure if we have a soul or not - or at least can’t prove it one way or the other...

I think we have a soul- or spirit- based on the nature of the universe and mathematics.

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Farmer77
6 minutes ago, Guyver said:

 In fact, so deep is the stereotype that “Ginger” from Gilligains Island was a beautiful redhead.  

Huh I guess I thought that was why redheads were called gingers.

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Guyver
7 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Huh I guess I thought that was why redheads were called gingers.

Ironically, I preferred Mary Ann as an adolescent.  As a full grown man.....I like Ginger.  Lol

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Guyver

PS.  Sorry, I forgot to say that colloquially speaking, in slang terms.....”ginger” can also refer to someone who’s “new to the scene” a newbie, or rookie if you will.  FWIW.

Edited by Guyver
Typo

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Intellectual emotions? 

Human emotions like love are not just chemical or biological emotions.

They are intellectual constructs (eg abstract ideas like; love, loyalty, honour, duty )  which we learn, imagine, design,  build/ construct,  maintain, evolve and change  etc., using our minds.   Just to repeat and highlight quote 

The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity.

In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1]

John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2

Added this because i had to go off and leave the original post unfinished and then I couldn't edit it. 

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Imaginarynumber1
12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Do you know that love exists as a physical quality? (or hate) 

If it does not, then how do you explain the human behaviors based upon love, hate, or other qualities like altruism,compassion, envy etc  of mind (not body) 

Hopefully you  do know that love exists 

if you do know it exists then HOW do you know this ? How do you measure it ?

How do you know when you have love, and when you do not? 

Scientifically we can measure the brain activity which creates our soul or spirit, and see  how different thoughts are generated  and formed

I suspect you are one of those  people l so hung up on the religious  aspect of soul (and we have a soul even if we are atheist because souls has nothing to do with religion) that because of anti religious feelings, you don't want to admit to having a soul. However if you  can appreciate art, music, nature, etc., as abstract and symbolic things of beauty, you have a soul  if you can feel sorrow, grief, as intellectual emotions then you have a soul 

Observe anyone's behaviour for a while and you  will learn the nature of their soul or spirit Some have strong, powerful, constructive and creative souls.

Some are strong but destructive.

Many are just "ordinary", and are used to live and to love .

humans began  to evolve souls as they evolved sophisticated self  awareness, and complex language skills.

Souls and spirits are a cognitive constructs of human minds' .    There is nothing mysterious or magical about them, given current knowledge in neuroscience and cognition, ( except in how wonderful the y are)  and they are as mortal as our brain is The soul can die while a human lives, once their brain is sufficiently damaged that it loses self  awareness  

quote

The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity. While the term can be used with the same meaning as "human soul", human spirit is sometimes used to refer to the impersonal, universal or higher component of human nature in contrast to soul or psyche which can refer to the ego or lower element. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity.

In the models of Daniel A. Helminiak and Bernard Lonergan, human spirit is considered to be the mental functions of awareness, insight, understanding, judgement and other reasoning powers. It is distinguished from the separate component of psyche which comprises the entities of emotion, images, memory and personality.[1]

John Teske views human spirit as a social construct representing the qualities of purpose and meaning which transcend the individual human.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_spirit

https://www.definitions.net/definition/human+spirit

I know "love" exists. I know it can be measured. Oxytocin and serotonin. So what chemicals measure the "soul", specifically. What can you look at in the brain and say, "that's the soul". And I dont mean creativity, which you seam to think is the same things. I'm talking about the religious concept of a soul, the thing that is you that exists indepent of your physical body.

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Guyver
On 1/13/2020 at 1:28 AM, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Things that don't exist can't be measures beacuse  THEY DON'T EXIST. Like souls. What a stupid concept.

There is a difference between things that are not known to exist and things that don’t exist.  Right?

So, what doesn’t exist - you don’t know.  And things that exist of which you are not aware of are also not known.  Get it?

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