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zep73

You don't have a soul

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Guyver
12 hours ago, psyche101 said:

A real soul is the person you are, the way the sum of your experiences have shaped you.

It's not some ghost or energy version of you. So in that respect, it's there as long as you are and as fluid as your life experience. 

Obviously, we have disagreements about this topic and it all comes down to personal opinion and belief.  

In Christian theology there is an interesting view that the soul and spirit are not the same thing.  They believe the body, soul, and spirit are all very closely linked, in synergy together.  In this view the body is the physical part of a person, the soul is the mind, will and emotions, while the spirit is an eternally existent “essence” of a person that remains conscious after death.

This is by no means universally agreed upon in Christianity as there are thousands of different sects and what have you, but I have heard this notion expressed among several different denominations.  Obviously, this will not convince you or any other skeptic, and it certainly can’t be proven, but I like it as one possible explanation.

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XenoFish

Spirit is pneumo or breath, soul being consciousness. 

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Bendy Demon

I've been skimming through the replies and I find it interesting that we have absolutely NOTHING to back up claims that a soul exists. Nothing.

We have religious text, anecdote, dogma, ramblings from the so-called 'ancients' but aside from that there is nothing to build a foundation on.

See, in order to build a hypothesis you need an event that is repeatable, observable and documented before any serious studies can be made. This is something you learn in grade school, you have an event, you wait to see if it happens again then try to construct a list of conditions that led up to the event then you try to wait until certain conditions are  in place to see if this 'event' happens again and/or you try to replicate the said conditions to see if your event happens again then you go from there.Feelings, beliefs and wishful thinking are not suitable for hypothesis construction and should never be part of any seriously logical study.

So far we have ZERO substantiated evidence to go by and we have reduced ourselves to the equivalency of toddlers on the playground saying "yes it is, no it isn't" then crossing your arms in a major snit-fest and saying "Because I said so" because we don't want to admit that our argument is not based on anything except what we think or feel and it will never get beyond that until we have a way to actually prove or dismiss an idea.

In order for something to be real it has to be able to exist outside of our heads and bodies.

Thoughts and feelings cannot exist outside ourselves because they are constructs of the mind; you won't find hate, love, kindness or beauty outside of us. It's not in nature, it's not in space..it is a emotional and psychological construct..sure, biochemicals make us feel them and we give names to certain feelings but, unlike components of the body, these things cannot be observed as they are. You cannot extract love and look at it and say "See, that's love" nor can you extract beauty and say "This is beauty" because it is relative, subjective and arbitrary.

Whether I really have a soul that leaves when my body dies or not is really irrelevant to me as I am trying to make my own existence as tolerable for myself as I can, I have a very real life now where I need to make sure I don't hurt others and myself in turn.

If I die and find myself floating around then that's great, I'll go and see Jupiter or Mars for myself and if not..well, I'll never know the difference.

 

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psyche101
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

Obviously, we have disagreements about this topic and it all comes down to personal opinion and belief.  

In Christian theology there is an interesting view that the soul and spirit are not the same thing.  They believe the body, soul, and spirit are all very closely linked, in synergy together.  In this view the body is the physical part of a person, the soul is the mind, will and emotions, while the spirit is an eternally existent “essence” of a person that remains conscious after death.

This is by no means universally agreed upon in Christianity as there are thousands of different sects and what have you, but I have heard this notion expressed among several different denominations.  Obviously, this will not convince you or any other skeptic, and it certainly can’t be proven, but I like it as one possible explanation.

It's a philosophical view though 

That's a completely man made idea. This particular one is attractive in nature and therefore widely accommodated. 

Science is observation. It doesn't rely on man. If we decide on something, nature still has the final say.

Absolutely nothing in nature indicates that there should be or could be the human philosophical view of a soul. Why should we have a soul? What facilitates it and what processes allowed the soul to come to be? Invoking gods is just compounding man made ideas with man made ideas. That strikes me as confirmation bias.

Call me crazy, but I'll take nature over man made ideas every time.

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psyche101
3 hours ago, Bendy Demon said:

So far we have ZERO substantiated evidence to go by and we have reduced ourselves to the equivalency of toddlers on the playground saying "yes it is, no it isn't" then crossing your arms in a major snit-fest and saying "Because I said so" because we don't want to admit that our argument is not based on anything except what we think or feel and it will never get beyond that until we have a way to actually prove or dismiss an idea.

I agree with much of your post but not this. I have linked to the attention schema theory which is more than saying "no it isn't"

I'd like to know how the alleged soul came to be, why would it exist and what would facilitate it? As far as I can tell it's purely a religious argument regardless of personal view or presentation. I think the proponents should be answering these questions before insisting it definitely exists. 

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XenoFish
11 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I agree with much of your post but not this. I have linked to the attention schema theory which is more than saying "no it isn't"

I'd like to know how the alleged soul came to be, why would it exist and what would facilitate it? As far as I can tell it's purely a religious argument regardless of personal view or presentation. I think the proponents should be answering these questions before insisting it definitely exists. 

How long before that theory is tossed out the window? It seems that we know nothing and that everything so far is just guess work, because today's answer is wrong tomorrow. 

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Bendy Demon
14 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I agree with much of your post but not this. I have linked to the attention schema theory which is more than saying "no it isn't"

I'd like to know how the alleged soul came to be, why would it exist and what would facilitate it? As far as I can tell it's purely a religious argument regardless of personal view or presentation. I think the proponents should be answering these questions before insisting it definitely exists. 

Sorry but I don't understand your gist of this.

We are still basing this soul assertion on opinions which ar subjective -as in based on opinion, not reality- so we are still at square one regardless.

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Guyver
1 hour ago, Bendy Demon said:

Sorry but I don't understand your gist of this.

We are still basing this soul assertion on opinions which ar subjective -as in based on opinion, not reality- so we are still at square one regardless.

Have you ever heard the phrase “being watcher of your thoughts?”  It is known by people who practice certain kinds of meditation.  As one begins to meditate, it is common to experience the mind racing.  I’ve experienced this myself.  It’s so difficult for so many people to just sit calmly, relax the mind and body, and focus purely on breathing.  The mind just spins and some people can’t even be calm and quiet for one minute at a time.

Anyway....during these times of meditation, a person can experience being the watcher of these thoughts.  One acknowledges that the mind is thinking, but chooses to not engage in thinking, instead, allowing thoughts to pass by without judgment as if they were a leaf floating by on the surface of a stream.

This is a common experience among meditation practitioners.  So, my question is.....who or what is watching these thoughts as a person practices the quieting of the mind?

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Bendy Demon
45 minutes ago, Guyver said:

 So, my question is.....who or what is watching these thoughts as a person practices the quieting of the mind?

We are ourselves. And this is just one of the many problems I see with religions and belief systems is this tendency to try and categorize and compartmentalize every aspect of ourselves and turn them into these little gremlins that act against 'you' and you're supposed to cage or kill them off in order to become this ideal 'self' that so many belief systems envision we should be. It is kinda like modern medicine, every part of our body is treated as a totally separate and unconnected entity.

While it is true we have individual parts/components you cannot treat/affect one without there being a cascade effect so-to-speak.

A person is themselves. My mind, brain and body are the same. My brain is not out to deceive me nor is my 'ego' dead set on making me miserable. These are all components of my being. I can be aware of my breathing, my thoughts and emotions because they are produced within my body. There is no other 'me'..there is no so-called 'higher self' or 'lower self'...just me and all those aspects of my personality and whatever comprises me.

At the same time my thoughts cannot exist without my brain, they cannot escape and live their own lives as they are by-products of neurological activity and I cannot take my brain out to show my thoughts because 1) it is impossible 2) It's kinda gross and 3) I'd be dead if I tried and lastly thoughts have no form

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Guyver

Bendy Demon, regarding your post above.....I tend to agree with you in many aspects.  Question.  Would you make any distinction between the brain and the mind?  Or are they the same thing?

 

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Guyver

Regarding my earlier points.....a person skillful in meditation can turn their minds off so that they do no thinking.  Instead, they have the experience of “being.”  That is....they are aware of existing yet have no need for thought.  

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Bendy Demon
14 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Question.  Would you make any distinction between the brain and the mind?  Or are they the same thing?

To me the 'mind' is just a product of the brain just as thoughts are a product.

To put it another way, the brain is real and the 'mind' is just the output..sort of like what you see on a computer screen is 'output' while the computer components (brain) produce it. No brain no mind..

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psyche101
On 1/20/2020 at 1:20 AM, Bendy Demon said:

Sorry but I don't understand your gist of this.

We are still basing this soul assertion on opinions which ar subjective -as in based on opinion, not reality- so we are still at square one regardless.

The gist is that there's more than "no it isn't" despite the comment that current theory will be wrong tomorrow, it is based on real world information. Not a philosophy.

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Horta

"Souls" exist in the poetic sense, not in any real sense though. There is no soul interacting with our brain. If it could have such an effect on physical matter it would have been detected and studied by now. If it is too weakly interacting to be detected, it is also too weak to have such an effect on the brain. We are a pack of neurons. Biological machines. That reality is far more interesting than new age/religious folklore.

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Mr Walker
On 1/16/2020 at 1:35 AM, Imaginarynumber1 said:

I know "love" exists. I know it can be measured. Oxytocin and serotonin. So what chemicals measure the "soul", specifically. What can you look at in the brain and say, "that's the soul". And I dont mean creativity, which you seam to think is the same things. I'm talking about the religious concept of a soul, the thing that is you that exists indepent of your physical body.

Love is not chemical. it is a construct of abstract thought

The soul is the difference between a human being who is slef aware and any other primate, for example.

  If you do not not, or cannot, see this difference then it explains why you have difficulty seeing your soul.  

We can be both creative and destructive because we have a soul.

  It requires a soul to know the difference and to make the deliberate and conscious  choice of which we will be 

But no There is no soul independent of your physical body and not all religions or even all branches of christianity insist that there is  

Biblically we become unconscious when we die ie our soul ceases to  function when our mind does 

It is then resurrected on the judgement days (a matter of belief not fact)

IF this happens, then for me, it is due to the application of advanced technology which has recorded and stored our minds while  we are alive and then replayed this when we are reborn   

So take out religion. Humans have souls unless the y are too young or disabled mentally to be slef aware. 

The y are product of consciousness and die when our mind (not our body ) does  Thus a person  with severe altzheimers has "lost' their soul,  even if they live for many more years  

 

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Mr Walker
On 1/18/2020 at 6:32 PM, psyche101 said:

A real soul is the person you are, the way the sum of your experiences have shaped you.

It's not some ghost or energy version of you. So in that respect, it's there as long as you are and as fluid as your life experience. 

You nailed it And its precisely because of this, that human  souls are real things  :) 

I think some  people are confusing mortal souls with immortal ones .

Very limited evidence for immortal souls.

Overwhelming evidence for mortal ones .

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
On 1/19/2020 at 7:36 AM, XenoFish said:

Spirit is pneumo or breath, soul being consciousness. 

Well humans definitely possess both of those :) 

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Mr Walker
On 1/19/2020 at 11:39 AM, psyche101 said:

I agree with much of your post but not this. I have linked to the attention schema theory which is more than saying "no it isn't"

I'd like to know how the alleged soul came to be, why would it exist and what would facilitate it? As far as I can tell it's purely a religious argument regardless of personal view or presentation. I think the proponents should be answering these questions before insisting it definitely exists. 

historically it came about some 10000 years or so ago when humans realised the existence of their self  aware consciousness  and began asking abstract questions of how/ why etc., we are as we are (it might have been much earlier than this, but we have definitive proofs from  over 10000 years ago) 

Evolution of human cognition/ consciousness abstract and conceptual thinking etc enabled it.

You can't have a soul until you come to understand you have one :)  

The concpet of an immortal soul is probably not much younger than the realisation tha t we have a mortal one 

Most early civilizations and even earlier peoples seem to have considered the question of life after death, and made burial arrangements reflecting their beliefs that some part of a human went on living.

I think tha t  is a natural consequence of being slef aware realising the nature of life and death and hoping that we will not totally die   

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Mr Walker
On 1/28/2020 at 2:12 AM, Horta said:

"Souls" exist in the poetic sense, not in any real sense though. There is no soul interacting with our brain. If it could have such an effect on physical matter it would have been detected and studied by now. If it is too weakly interacting to be detected, it is also too weak to have such an effect on the brain. We are a pack of neurons. Biological machines. That reality is far more interesting than new age/religious folklore.

lol

our soul is our mind

Now if you  are one of those who cant distinguish mind from brain, it is not surprising you feel as you do.

But human minds  have a level of slef awre consciousness and cognition that enables the construction  of abstract and symbolic thoughts and language.

Thus  we construct or build our own souls, from  the time we are born, doing so more consciously as we become increasingly   self  aware

We are not a pack of neurons.

we are the language, the thoughts, the self  awareness,which  those neuron patterns  facilitate and enable. We are thoughts memories etc., existing in the present time via understanding and knowledge from our past  

We take control of them, and construct them, to become who we are.  Remove access to our memories and our thoughts, our identity sense of self, knowledge and understandings,  and you kill our soul  even if the body lives on. Preserve those things, somehow, when the body dies, and your soul can live on eg  (potentially) in an android body using an artificial brain.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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pbarosso

well if its not a soul then i dont know what it is. the soul existed way before organized religion. im sure it was experiences of early man with near death experiences etc that led to ideas of souls and great spirits.

if you think we just close our eyes and then cease to be then id say thats also unprovable. there are arguments in the scientific community about "consciousness". 

 

the end of this argument is this "I DONT KNOW" or "i cant prove it either way". but seriously, can you imagine not existing? i mean theres as much evidence for not existing after death as there is for being reincarnated. i mean maybe we live infinite lives. maybe this is  just a big virtual universe, there is more evidence for that than there is for any of the above ideas i think. i just read that this might be a 2 dimensional universe. 

 

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, pbarosso said:

well if its not a soul then i dont know what it is. the soul existed way before organized religion. im sure it was experiences of early man with near death experiences etc that led to ideas of souls and great spirits.

if you think we just close our eyes and then cease to be then id say thats also unprovable. there are arguments in the scientific community about "consciousness". 

 

the end of this argument is this "I DONT KNOW" or "i cant prove it either way". but seriously, can you imagine not existing? i mean theres as much evidence for not existing after death as there is for being reincarnated. i mean maybe we live infinite lives. maybe this is  just a big virtual universe, there is more evidence for that than there is for any of the above ideas i think. i just read that this might be a 2 dimensional universe. 

 

Its true that  we don't know, but we cant let an inner  perception make our decision for us 

Being alive, it might be hard to contemplate or accept being dead, but that doesn't mean it won't happen 

it is really not hard to appreciate death/non existence 

That is how it was before we were conceived.

"We" didn't exist 

Our minds construct or build certain thoughts and beliefs to comfort us. or to provide hypothetical answers to unknowable questions.

In itself, this does not mean there is no life after death,  but it certainly does not mean there is.

Objective evidences, either personal or universal,  are required for certainty 

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Horta
15 hours ago, pbarosso said:

if you think we just close our eyes and then cease to be then id say thats also unprovable. there are arguments in the scientific community about "consciousness". 

There is not one accepted or convincing scientific argument for consciousness having any other source than a functioning brain.

Quote

 but seriously, can you imagine not existing? i mean theres as much evidence for not existing after death as there is for being reincarnated. 

What was your existence like in 1900? Or the 13.8 billion years before that? Why would it be any different when we pass on?

There is only anecdotal evidence for reincarnation ie. claims and stories. When we're gone, we're gone. Why is that such a problem for people? Give it some thought, it might be far preferable.

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XenoFish
18 hours ago, pbarosso said:

can you imagine not existing?

Ever had a dreamless sleep? Where there is only the gap between consciousness-unconsciousness-consciousness. No dreams, nothing. Completely dead to the world. Now think about not waking up. An eternal seamless slumber. 

Edited by XenoFish

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Liquid Gardens
On 1/19/2020 at 11:38 AM, Guyver said:

One acknowledges that the mind is thinking, but chooses to not engage in thinking, instead, allowing thoughts to pass by without judgment as if they were a leaf floating by on the surface of a stream.

I don't think you can be aware of 'thoughts passing by', or anything really, without doing some amount of thinking.

On 1/19/2020 at 11:38 AM, Guyver said:

So, my question is.....who or what is watching these thoughts as a person practices the quieting of the mind?

Different thoughts, or if we think we can reduce it this far that person's sense awareness, are 'watching' the other thoughts.

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XenoFish
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Ever had a dreamless sleep? Where there is only the gap between consciousness-unconsciousness-consciousness. No dreams, nothing. Completely dead to the world. Now think about not waking up. An eternal dreamless slumber. 

I hate my phones auto-correct.

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