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Cookie Monster

Optimum Diet for a Human

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Cookie Monster

In my opinion all current healthy eating advice is wrong.

Argument One: Human beings have only been farming fruits, vegetables, and grains, since 8000BC. Before then we never ate grain and the version of the other two which we consumed weren't the selectively breed varieties we have today.

Argument Two: As stated, before farming we never ate grains. We ate the wild fruits we could find during late spring and early summer. We ate the wild vegetables we could find during late summer and autumn. We simply haven't evolved to be eating grains, fruits, and vegetables, all year round. And especially not the selectively bred high sugar/carbs varieties we have today.

Argument Three: For all the healthy eating advice the oldest person to have ever lived (officially, as they could provide a birth certificate) made it to 122. Its not like the promoted healthy eating advice makes people live to 200, or 300, or even a 1000. If a diet made people live to 1000 then I would class that as healthy eating advice.

Argument Four: Most healthy eating advice given to humans is actually healthy eating advice for mice. Thats right, even the 5 a day advice is from mouse experiments scaled up to the mass of a human being. Mice are not humans, we last shared a common ancestor tens of millions of years ago when we diverged in the evolutionary tree. Therefore we cannot take what is an optimum diet for them and apply it to ourselves.

In my opinion we have evolved to eat animal meat and fat as our year round staple diet. That doesnt result in much fat being stored as it doesnt get the insulin going. Therefore to fatten us up for winter we would compliment it with fruits in late spring and early summer, and vegetables in late summer and early autumn. 

In my opinion the obesity epidemic is caused by use using grains (rice, wheat, barley, bread, etc) and sugar/carbs (sweets, chocolate, fizzy drinks, prepared meals with it added) as our year round staple diet. Instead of fattening up over a few months to survive a winter, we are fattening up all year round.

Since the advent of farming where we have been growing and preserving grains, fruits, and vegetables, for year round consumption, we have been eating a diet we haven't evolved to survive on. As farming has taken off, and our farmed food has been more selectively bred, then we have found lifespans have decreased in ancient sources (Bible, ancient Middle Eastern clay tablets, ancient Chinese records, ancient Roman records). 

I propose that the increase in lifespan during modern times is not an increase in the maximum length of time people live based on our diets. Its actually getting more people to that limit by a reduction of child mortality and healthcare for the disease or elderly. I propose that extraordinarily long lifespans are possible, and they are about eating the diet we have actually evolved to live off. 

Meat and animal fat as our main year round staple. Then we fatten ourselves up for winter by eating fruits and vegetables when they would be naturally available in the wild, and limiting ourselves to the quantities we would actually have found as cavemen.

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Cookie Monster
26 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The official position in science is that the farming of grains started in the Middle East around 8000BC.

We have evidence to support this too because at the same time a genetic mutation occurred in grass allowing its seeds to drop off easier from the rest of the plant. That mutation meant that we could grow grass as a crop then shake the seeds off. It allowed the mass feeding of people. It was the first step in the process of shaping and moulding grass to become the farmed crops of today.

We know from present day genetics, and the genetics of ancient seeds, that this was the case.

If the farming of seeds has arisen elsewhere at a much earlier date (what your link proposes) then it doesnt explain how exactly they were farmed without that genetic mutation. It would be impractical for cave people to manually pick off grass seeds and certainly wouldnt be a calorie efficient practice.

It certainly wouldnt be a viable means to feed an entire population, it would take too long and spend too much energy to gather up enough grain. Even if you link has identified a anomaly there is no evidence of widespread farming of grain in the ancient past.

Maybe the upper echelons of that society liked grain, so the workers were employed picking seeds off grass?

Edited by RabidMongoose
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spartan max2
14 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

The official position in science is that the farming of grains started in the Middle East around 8000BC.

We have evidence to support this too because at the same time a genetic mutation occurred in grass allowing its seeds to drop off easier from the rest of the plant. That mutation meant that we could grow grass as a crop then shake the seeds off. It allowed the mass feeding of people. It was the first step in the process of shaping and moulding grass to become the farmed crops of today.

We know from present day genetics, and the genetics of ancient seeds, that this was the case.

If the farming of seeds has arisen elsewhere at a much earlier date (what your link proposes) then it doesnt explain how exactly they were farmed without that genetic mutation. It would be impractical for cave people to manually pick off grass seeds and certainly wouldnt be a calorie efficient practice.

It certainly wouldnt be a viable means to feed an entire population, it would take too long and spend too much energy to gather up enough grain. Even if you link has identified a anomaly there is no evidence of widespread farming of grain in the ancient past.

I pretty sure it's suggesting the latter, not that they knew how to farm just that they ate it when they saw it. Humans and our ancestors are opportunist if anything.

Also, another interesting one.

https://archive.unews.utah.edu/news_releases/a-grassy-trend-in-human-ancestors-diets/

I only know these links because of watching people on Reddit argue with Paleo diet eaters lol

I'm not and archeologist myself. I'm sure @Piney will have thoughts.

Edited by spartan max2
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Piney
7 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I'm not and archeologist myself. I'm sure @Piney will have thoughts.

Farming started in about 4 different places around the world.

8 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I only know these links because of watching people on Reddit argue with Paleo diet eaters lol

Peoples microbiomes are different now. Maybe even their digestive systems. We don't have a model. Medical research just says it's not that great. 

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Piney
1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

Argument Two: As stated, before farming we never ate grains.

Native Americans did. We ate maygrass and wild rice.both in the wheat family since the Early Archaic. Maybe before

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Cookie Monster
31 minutes ago, Piney said:

Native Americans did. We ate maygrass and wild rice.both in the wheat family since the Early Archaic. Maybe before

Do you have reports of people living centuries in your ancient past too?

Wiki says there is evidence of Maygrass farming only going back 4000 years. When it comes to when rice was first farmed I can only find evidence going back to 12000BC with no specific dates given for American farming just Chinese: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalaris_caroliniana

http://ricepedia.org/culture/history-of-rice-cultivation 

Edited by RabidMongoose
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Cookie Monster
38 minutes ago, Piney said:

Farming started in about 4 different places around the world.

Peoples microbiomes are different now. Maybe even their digestive systems. We don't have a model. Medical research just says it's not that great. 

That is true to a limited extend.

For example, most present day Europeans can drink cows milk without getting a bad stomach. But in just a few thousand years we haven't changed that much. The process of evolution is not fast.

Edited by RabidMongoose

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Piney
9 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Wiki says there is evidence of Maygrass farming only going back 4000 years.

Eating it goes back further in Kentucky and Florida. I'll look for Webb's papers. 

5 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

For example, most present day Europeans can drink cows milk without getting a bad stomach. But in just a few thousand years we haven't changed that much. The process of evolution is not fast.

It depends on the environmental stresses. A few generations can even show changes.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/rapid-evolution-changes-species-in-real-time

https://phys.org/news/2016-12-fast-evolution-affects.html

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spartan max2

Looking over OP again, I guess my main disagreement here Rabid is the (trendy in some circles) argument that grain is bad for us. 

Whole grain is normally good for us.

Also, the Bible does have stories of people living for a couple hundred years at a time but I have no reason to believe that really.

Edited by spartan max2
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Cookie Monster
9 minutes ago, Piney said:

Eating it goes back further in Kentucky and Florida. I'll look for Webb's papers. 

It depends on the environmental stresses. A few generations can even show changes.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/rapid-evolution-changes-species-in-real-time

https://phys.org/news/2016-12-fast-evolution-affects.html

The rate of evolutionary change isn't the same across all species of life.

Plants undergo the highest rates of change because they cannot uproot themselves and find a better environment. In animals fish have high rates of adaption. They lay millions of eggs per year. But human beings have low rates of adaption because we breed infrequently and have small litters.

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Cookie Monster
3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Looking over OP again, I guess my main disagreement here Rabid is the (trendy in some circles) argument that grain is bad for us. 

Whole grain is normally good for us.

Also, the Bible does have stories of people living for a couple hundred years at a time but I have no reason to believe that really.

Its not the nutritional aspect of grain which bad for us.

Its the carb content. I am arguing we haven't evolved to consume the level of carbs we gain from modern diet, or diets going back several thousand years. Carbs exists in meat but at a far lower level than it does in grain, fruit, and veg. Even amongst the fruits and vegies growing 30,000 years ago (as an example) there weren't the same as the ones we eat. We have selectively bred modern fruits and vegies to have higher carb contents.

We know that insulin drives the aging process, and it is reasonable to speculate that a very low carb diet therefore extends lifespan. I am arguing Biblical reports of people living centuries and other ancient reports of it (there are plenty of non-religious sources saying the same thing) are in fact true. They relate to a time when people we consuming very low levels of carbs in their diets because high carb sources weren't available.

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spartan max2
11 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Its not the nutritional aspect of grain which bad for us.

Its the carb content. I am arguing we haven't evolved to consume the level of carbs we gain from modern diet, or diets going back several thousand years. Carbs exists in meat but at a far lower level than it does in grain, fruit, and veg. Even amongst the fruits and vegies growing 30,000 years ago (as an example) there weren't the same as the ones we eat. We have selectively bred modern fruits and vegies to have higher carb contents.

We know that insulin drives the aging process, and it is reasonable to speculate that a very low carb diet therefore extends lifespan. I am arguing Biblical reports of people living centuries and other ancient reports of it (there are plenty of non-religious sources saying the same thing) are in fact true. They relate to a time when people we consuming very low levels of carbs in their diets because high carb sources weren't available.

In modren research of longevity, the Blue Zones are the areas on Earth the have the highest amount of Centenarians.

They eat Whole Grain and plenty of Carbs.

 

https://www.bluezones.com/four-best-foods-four-worst-foods-blue-zones-life/

https://www.bluezones.com/recipes/food-guidelines/

Edited by spartan max2
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Cookie Monster
47 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

In modren research of longevity, the Blue Zones are the areas on Earth the have the highest amount of Centenarians.

They eat Whole Grain and plenty of Carbs.

https://www.bluezones.com/four-best-foods-four-worst-foods-blue-zones-life/

https://www.bluezones.com/recipes/food-guidelines/

In my opinion the vast majority of healthy eating advice and media articles on living a long life are lies.

We do not experiment on human beings under laboratory conditions. No group of humans have ever spent their lives locked in cages with their diets being carefully monitored and assessed to determine what was an optimum diet for a human being is. Healthy eating advice is untested but promoted as truth, even by medical professionals.

Furthermore the conclusions from population statistics are heavily distorted to make out a certain diet lives to a long life. Lets look at some facts:

http://www.genealogyintime.com/GenealogyResources/Articles/how_many_people_live_to_100_page1.html

In the USA only 0.0173 of the population lived past 100 in 2010. That is a tiny number of people. Yet if we look at one of the so called blue zones in your article and find 0.0180 of its population live past 100 why are their diets being promoted as super healthy? With such a low number of human beings living to 100 it is statistically irrelevant.

Show me someone who makes it to 200, to 300, or even to 1000, and then I will take what they say is a healthy diet seriously. Why? Well they have legitimacy because they have stumbled upon something that really does make people live longer. For me, when I read ancient sources where this was claimed for ancient people, then I am open minded instead of being dismissive.

Mostly because I realise the diets of human beings were different in the past. They were very low in sugar and carbs.

Edited by RabidMongoose

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Piney
1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

The rate of evolutionary change isn't the same across all species of life.

I just stick with my ethnic diet though. Seafood, fowl, rice and steamed veggies and because my mother was mostly Norman and their diets revolved around oats and dairy, lots of cheeses, yogurts and other fermented milk products. Lots of Irish oatmeal.....no American cheese though... American cheese is really gasket material. :yes:

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Cookie Monster
28 minutes ago, Piney said:

I just stick with my ethnic diet though. Seafood, fowl, rice and steamed veggies and because my mother was mostly Norman and their diets revolved around oats and dairy, lots of cheeses, yogurts and other fermented milk products. Lots of Irish oatmeal.....no American cheese though... American cheese is really gasket material. :yes:

I`m not waiting to see, I`m going to be a tester lol.

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Piney
5 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Whole grain is normally good for us.

The doctor is who got me eating Cheerios and oatmeal. 

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rashore
10 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

In my opinion all current healthy eating advice is wrong.

Argument One: Human beings have only been farming fruits, vegetables, and grains, since 8000BC. Before then we never ate grain and the version of the other two which we consumed weren't the selectively breed varieties we have today.

Argument Two: As stated, before farming we never ate grains. We ate the wild fruits we could find during late spring and early summer. We ate the wild vegetables we could find during late summer and autumn. We simply haven't evolved to be eating grains, fruits, and vegetables, all year round. And especially not the selectively bred high sugar/carbs varieties we have today.

 

Just this. Humans didn't start eating grains till after we started farming grains for eating? That's putting the cart before the horse. And not true.

It was because humans were eating grains in many more wild forms that they knew which ones might be good for farming later on for hundreds of years... and I think maybe 10,000 rather than 8,000 might be closer to the mark there for early farming. It was because of finding good grains along with other produce in the wild and wanting to settle down with it that farming the stuff started. Even before real farming was going on, hunters/gatherers knew which places grew grain or other produce for human consumption, and when to go there to harvest the stuff. A bit of wild cultivation or leaving grain seed wild for next year.. Along with that noting what animals want to eat what crops and utilizing that..

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Cookie Monster
7 minutes ago, rashore said:

Just this. Humans didn't start eating grains till after we started farming grains for eating? That's putting the cart before the horse. And not true.

It was because humans were eating grains in many more wild forms that they knew which ones might be good for farming later on for hundreds of years... and I think maybe 10,000 rather than 8,000 might be closer to the mark there for early farming. It was because of finding good grains along with other produce in the wild and wanting to settle down with it that farming the stuff started. Even before real farming was going on, hunters/gatherers knew which places grew grain or other produce for human consumption, and when to go there to harvest the stuff. A bit of wild cultivation or leaving grain seed wild for next year.. Along with that noting what animals want to eat what crops and utilizing that..

Its not that grain was never edible, its that there was no way of farming it in sufficient quantities to make it into a viable food source. That is until about 8000BC at which point a genetic mutation occurred in some grass in the Middle East (southeast Turkey if I remember correctly).

That mutation meant that the seeds were only weakly attached to the grass making it easy for them to fall off. It enabled farming because people could grow a batch of grass, cut it down, grab bundles in their hands, and beat them against slabs to make the seeds fall off. It allowed the collection of grain in sufficient quantities to make bread. And, we have since engaged in selective breading choosing those grasses with bigger and fatter grains. That has lead to cereal breakfasts.

If you go into the countryside during summer and find some wild grass it is easy to see how hard it is to get the seeds to fall off. You end up having to manually pick them off one by one. Its too slow and laborious to get enough grain from which to make a loaf of bread. To feed your family you`d be at it for hours.

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rashore
3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Its not that grain was never edible, its that there was no way of farming it in sufficient quantities to make it into a viable food source. That is until about 8000BC at which point a genetic mutation occurred in some grass in the Middle East (southeast Turkey if I remember correctly).

That mutation meant that the seeds were only weakly attached to the grass making it easy for them to fall off. It enabled farming because people could grow a batch of grass, cut it down, grab bundles in their hands, and beat them against slabs to make the seeds fall off. It allowed the collection of grain in sufficient quantities to make bread. And, we have since engaged in selective breading choosing those grasses with bigger and fatter grains. That has lead to cereal breakfasts.

If you go into the countryside during summer and find some wild grass it is easy to see how hard it is to get the seeds to fall off. You end up having to manually pick them off one by one. Its too slow and laborious to get enough grain from which to make a loaf of bread. To feed your family you`d be at it for hours.

That's a far cry from

Quote

Argument One: Human beings have only fruits, vegetables, and grains, since 8000BC. Before then we never ate grain and the version of the other two which we consumed weren't the selectively breed varieties we have today.

Argument Two: As stated, before farming we never ate grains. We ate the wild fruits we could find during late spring and early summer. We ate the wild vegetables we could find during late summer and autumn. We simply haven't evolved to be eating grains, fruits, and vegetables, all year round. And especially not the selectively bred high sugar/carbs varieties we have today.

 

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Cookie Monster
Just now, rashore said:

That's a far cry from

Nope, I stand by what I said.

Combined together then grains are edible, but our ancient ancestors never ate them because they couldn't farm them in a practical manner. And yes that means we haven't evolved to be eating them. We are not evolved to be eating the high sugar/carb diet modern humans consume as an all year round staple diet.

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GlitterRose

It seems like no one can make up their minds what our optimum diet should be.

Maybe people should just cater it to themselves and how their own bodies react to food. 

If it's not helping you be well, then quit eating it, I guess. 

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

It seems like no one can make up their minds what our optimum diet should be.

Maybe people should just cater it to themselves and how their own bodies react to food. 

If it's not helping you be well, then quit eating it, I guess. 

I think the biggest issue is just over-consumption. A lot of people eat way more than they need on a daily basis. I eat whatever I feel like having, because I have one meal a day. Which works for me. 

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GlitterRose
Just now, XenoFish said:

I think the biggest issue is just over-consumption. A lot of people eat way more than they need on a daily basis. I eat whatever I feel like having, because I have one meal a day. Which works for me. 

Oh there's no doubt about over-consumption. It's cultural here. Shows about stuffing as much food as possible down your throat as fast as you can. Ugh.

 

 

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XenoFish
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

Oh there's no doubt about over-consumption. It's cultural here. Shows about stuffing as much food as possible down your throat as fast as you can. Ugh.

I used to be a stress eater. Had to get my blood pressure in check. So my doctor put me on a diet. This was during my gut check as well. I got used to eating less food. Twice a day typically, that was until I started feeling sick after lunch. No breakfast, no lunch, only dinner. I found it kept my calories within the daily requirement, + or -. 

Edited by XenoFish

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