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spartan max2

Corrections trainees fired over Nazi salute

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toast
27 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

Katharine Hepburn, not Audrey, and you sound paranoid to the point that you even stated that you think people here are "prospective / hidden nazis".  My mother is Jewish.  Does that make her a hidden Nazi as well?  The trainees saluted their instructor with a harmless jest to imply that she was tough.  Accusing them of having a hidden loyalty to a long dead fascist leader is paranoia and possibly libel.

Maybe it isnt simple enough to understand for you: the salute is a no-go, no matter for what purpose.

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Aaron2016
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, toast said:

Maybe it isnt simple enough to understand for you: the salute is a no-go, no matter for what purpose.

Says who?  Nobody has the right to give that order, let alone enforce such an order.  It was done to mock the Nazis, not support them.

 

One of America's most loved Jewish comedians.

Mel Brooks

Image result for mel brooks nazi salute

 

 

Edited by Aaron2016
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spartan max2
26 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

Says who?  Nobody has the right to give that order, let alone enforce such an order.  It was done to mock the Nazis, not support them.

 

One of America's most loved Jewish comedians.

Mel Brooks

Image result for mel brooks nazi salute

 

 

My question I keep trying to ask you is if you believe public servants and officials should have a different standard of professionalism then everyone else?

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toast
46 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

Says who?  Nobody has the right to give that order, let alone enforce such an order. 

It isnt an order by someone, its a question of the level of ethical standards.

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Aaron2016
41 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

My question I keep trying to ask you is if you believe public servants and officials should have a different standard of professionalism then everyone else?

Everyone should be treated with the same rights.  The war was fought to protect individual freedoms.  Having them cherry-picked to suit social norms is a slippery slope to fascism.  Liberals are becoming the very people they fear, and when their mob becomes a roar and they become brainwashed to believe they are on the side of righteousness they quickly judge everyone who thinks outside their bubble as a threat and is swiftly discriminated against and eliminated from the discussion, and then we find history repeating itself under a new flag of fascism masquerading under a banner of liberalism.

 

 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Apropos that salute, in Hollywood you often see two styles of salute, the “The **** Is Piled This Deep In Germany” salute and a generic hand near the ear salute. 
 

were both used in Nazi Germany or was the later invented so actors didn’t have to do the full salute if they didn’t want to?

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toast
24 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Apropos that salute, in Hollywood you often see two styles of salute, the “The **** Is Piled This Deep In Germany” salute and a generic hand near the ear salute. were both used in Nazi Germany or was the later invented so actors didn’t have to do the full salute if they didn’t want to?

The “The **** Is Piled This Deep In Germany” salute was the common standard and military salute. The near to the ear salute, see image below, was allowed to use in case of physical limitation, limited space conditions or in case two persons would be stand in front of each other. The Hitler salute was also a sign of subordination so it wasnt always used be the nazi top management like Hitler/Göring/Goebbels who often performed the lazy version of the salute.

Hw2XCxT.jpg?1

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Sir Wearer of Hats
53 minutes ago, toast said:

The “The **** Is Piled This Deep In Germany” salute was the common standard and military salute. The near to the ear salute, see image below, was allowed to use in case of physical limitation, limited space conditions or in case two persons would be stand in front of each other. The Hitler salute was also a sign of subordination so it wasnt always used be the nazi top management like Hitler/Göring/Goebbels who often performed the lazy version of the salute.

Hw2XCxT.jpg?1

Cheers!

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Manwon Lender
6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Ein Deutscher der ersten generation zieht grobe parallelen zwischen dem Nationalsozialismus und dem heutigen Amerika, Wie kurios.

A first-generation German draws rough parallels between National Socialism and America today, as strange. It may be strange to some but not to me. Many of my family members were in the German Military during the war, including my father. My last name was Von Ritter, before I changed it, so I suppose to each their own. Thanks for the post.

Frieden und ein glückliches neues Jahr für Sie und Ihre Familie.

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Cheers!

peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, toast said:

The “The **** Is Piled This Deep In Germany” salute was the common standard and military salute. The near to the ear salute, see image below, was allowed to use in case of physical limitation, limited space conditions or in case two persons would be stand in front of each other. The Hitler salute was also a sign of subordination so it wasnt always used be the nazi top management like Hitler/Göring/Goebbels who often performed the lazy version of the salute.

Hw2XCxT.jpg?1

Das sind einige sehr gute Punkte. Aber wir wissen beide, dass es immer noch dasselbe bedeutet. wenn ich sehe, dass die White Power-Organisationen in Amerika heute denselben Gruß halten. Es macht mich krank, weil diese Idioten keine Ahnung haben, was es eigentlich bedeutet. Sie sind nur in Büchern und im Fernsehen oder von anderen Idoiten wie ihnen davon betroffen.

Friedensbruder

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Manwon Lender
8 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

The reason the Nazis are on the forefront of people's minds is that we see them daily in documentaries and films about the war which are made and repeated with growing regularity to paint the Nazis as spawns of Satan despite the fact that the average German soldier was not involved with any of the reported atrocities.  The Nazis have been forced into the 21st century limelight by the media.  Just like racism being exaggerated to paranoia.  I remember when actor Morgan Freeman was asked what the media can do to stop racism.  His answer - "Stop talking about it."  Making an issue where none exist is what polarizes people and drives them to hysteria e.g. Climate change with the world ending in 12 years, Trump being the new Hitler, Imminent terrorist attacks, disease pandemics, and a secret world order.  It's all drivel and hyped up BS.  I live in Northern Ireland and we are tougher skinned with former IRA terrorists in government and work colleagues involved in violence during the troubles.  I guess we just don't see the issue that doing a fascist salute as a joke can be taken so seriously that it can become a sackable offence.

 

You have every right to your opinion, but whether you live in Ireland, Scotland or even England. There are still old timers around who fought in that war. If they saw some young person giving Nazi Salutes, they would be offended. Those people sacrificed much so that people of your generation did not have to deal with such bull****. Last, by your comments above I dont think you understand why so many TV networks keep bring up Nazi Germany. They continue to do it so it is never forgotten, because if you forget history, it can very easily repeat itself. 

Peace

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bee
14 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

I was at work.  Yes, I am part of the discussion.  I grew up watching comedies like Hogan's Heroes and Allo Allo which make fun of the Nazis in every conceivable way.  Classic films and Broadway shows like 'Spring Time for Hitler' have worldwide success.  Nobody is accusing the actors of those shows (many Jewish) of being Nazi sympathizers.  Mel Brooks recently did the Hitler salute on a chat show for fun.  Everybody laughed and took it all as entertainment.  The trainees were doing exactly the same and now they are sacked.  There can't be one law for entertainers and another for the general public.  That is the point I wish to make.  Yet some people can't see the difference between an innocent act of fun and an ideological devotion to the Nazis.  There is a clear difference.

 

 

I agree.... and the whole thing could have been tackled differently (if there weren't any other
contributory factors..)

They could have been sent on an awareness course about it all, rather than fired...
Or taken to one side and have the controversy explained...

The punishment and shaming for it, if it was done as an innocent act of humour
is over the top, IMO..... and ironically one might say the response is a bit  fascist like... ???

 

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bee
Posted (edited)
On 1/1/2020 at 7:23 PM, Manwon Lender said:

Dude your foolish comments serve no one, in fact they may appear offensive to many. 

 

his comment was amusing*.... that's what makes a certain kind of humour funny...
it's near the bone... reflecting the hidden realities and presenting juxtapositions -
paradoxes and whatnot.... the British (and Irish) sense of humour can be a bit like that...
hovering on the dark and dangerous in an innocent way... daring to go near the truth...
sometimes too near the truth for many people's liking... and the shock value adds to
the hilarity....

I think that in times gone by... it was only the Court Jester that was allowed to say funny
and critical things about the King.... without getting his head chopped off... and Comedy,
in the broader sense is like that..... well until the politically correct nonsense kills off the
deeper humour... and just leaves the childish slap stick kind...


edit to add the *

*to me but it's all relative I suppose...

 

 

 

Edited by bee
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bee
On 1/1/2020 at 5:33 PM, RoofGardener said:

Sooooooooooooo.... "dozens" of these people where sacked. 

OK. 

How much did it cost to train them, and who will replace them ? 

 

On 1/1/2020 at 5:35 PM, Aaron2016 said:

Somebody who is willing to follow the new fascist rules without showing a fascist salute.  :D

 

 

 

perhaps some of those nice, tolerant, peaceful young men and women in ANTIFA could apply...

:innocent:

 

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bee
On 1/1/2020 at 10:41 PM, Aaron2016 said:

That would be taking the joke too far.  It was a term of endearment, not a political statement.  Our college English tutor was very regimental and strict against the class, and I remember a girl used to sarcastically address him with "Yes, Mein Herr" and the class laughed and the teacher thought nothing of it.  People are just too sensitive about most things these days.  Since the public have not engaged in another big war in decades there probably is a deep subconscious desire to create a fantasy war in their heads that does not exist.  Perhaps mankind has been conditioned for centuries to fight and win, and now that we no longer fight and therefore have nothing left to win, there is a growing paranoia that everyone who does not agree with them is therefore their enemy and they see and create enemies wherever they go.  The media beefs it up and exaggerates every story which just feeds into the hysteria.  I think deep down the public want a war just to release their tension away from each other.  Must be a human characteristic.

 

 

 

interesting observations...

I do think that at the moment the Main Stream Media and those behind them are deliberately
 tapping into and exploiting primitive emotions - and this is why people are getting 'triggered' 
all over the place and becoming irrational and easily manipulated... (well large numbers of
them anyway...)

the political elite trying to maintain power and wealth isn't a new story - it's as old as the hills
but at the mo we are seeing a modern twist with larger populations and the new technology .. 

 

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bee
17 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

You forget, offense is taken, not given, even when it is purposely offered, it can only be taken or one can just ignore it.  If you find yourself being offended often, it is most likely an addiction to what ever endorphins are triggered in your brain by your choices to think something is offensive.  Your brain, your thoughts. 

What ever @Aaron2016 thinks he's saying gets garbled because it is just some snarky comment by someone who is not really participating in the discussion.


liked the first paragraph... and agree with that...

but I think that @Aaron2016 is making a good contribution to the discussion going on in this thread..
 

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bee
14 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

Byrd eventually directed her class to use the hand gesture while taking a photo of the class, it said, and it added that after 10 members resisted, Byrd explicitly directed them to give the gesture. Seven of those cadets told investigators they made a fist so as to appear to comply with Byrd’s demand but not directly mimic a Nazi salute — which can be seen in the photo released.

When Byrd later asked a secretary to print the photo with the caption “Hail Byrd,” she was pressed by a secretary on what the class was doing, the report said. State investigators say Byrd responded with “because I’m a hardass like Hitler.”

above is quote from Time.com (?)

 

14 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

The instructor was the one who told the trainees to do the salute.  She was responsible, yet all of the trainees were sacked.


as I've gone through the thread the story does have more grey areas than I at first thought....
and if it was something that was repeated at the urging of the Instructor then the humour angle is
getting stretched... and it looks like she was into something more than humour... (maybe narcissism,
insensitivity and abuse of power...) 

I'm thinking of the saying... 'an organization is only as good as it's officers'

and that it's right that she was sacked but not the trainees...

  

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bee
13 hours ago, toast said:

It isnt an order by someone, its a question of the level of ethical standards.


I'm sure Hitler and the Third Reich were similarly convinced of having high levels of ethical standards...
 

12 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

Everyone should be treated with the same rights.  The war was fought to protect individual freedoms.  Having them cherry-picked to suit social norms is a slippery slope to fascism.  Liberals are becoming the very people they fear, and when their mob becomes a roar and they become brainwashed to believe they are on the side of righteousness they quickly judge everyone who thinks outside their bubble as a threat and is swiftly discriminated against and eliminated from the discussion, and then we find history repeating itself under a new flag of fascism masquerading under a banner of liberalism.

 

 

 

well said.....

and we come back to human nature and how groups of people can be manipulated into mob rule
and the fear of ostracism (or worse) keeps them from speaking out against the mob... 

anyway.... I've said enough on all this this morning... but it is a very interesting subject and at the
heart of retaining the freedoms we have enjoyed in the West for decades.... but are under threat,,,

 

 

 

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Aaron2016
35 minutes ago, bee said:

above is quote from Time.com (?)

 


as I've gone through the thread the story does have more grey areas than I at first thought....
and if it was something that was repeated at the urging of the Instructor then the humour angle is
getting stretched... and it looks like she was into something more than humour... (maybe narcissism,
insensitivity and abuse of power...) 

I'm thinking of the saying... 'an organization is only as good as it's officers'

and that it's right that she was sacked but not the trainees...

  

I agree, the instructor should have taken full responsibility, but I think she may have denied it at first, and then admitted afterwards.  The full story can be read on:

https://time.com/5757099/west-virginia-correction-officers-nazi-salute/

 

 

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Golden Duck
14 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

...  It was done to mock the Nazis, not support them. ...

Mocking?

Quote

When Byrd asked a secretary to print the photo with the caption “Hail Byrd,“ she was pressed by a secretary on what the class was doing, the report said. State investigators say Byrd responded with “because I’m a hardass like Hitler”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/31/west-virginia-governor-cadets-nazi-salute

Nah!

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Aaron2016

I went to a wax works museum in England.  I think it was in Great Yarmouth and almost everyone posed for a photo with the wax dummy of Hitler and many of them did the salute (as a joke).  Nobody cared, because nobody took it serious enough to think twice about it, because it was done as a joke, despite the fact the town was heavily bombed during the war because everybody was well aware that the war ended a very long time ago and the Germans are our allies now which is why we have so many comedy films and sitcoms about the war and why so many people love playing video games which allow kids to play as the Germans.  To believe they are all secret Nazis is paranoia, just like the Red Russians coming to get us all during the Cold war.

 

It's called - having a laugh

salute1a.png

 

 

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Aaron2016
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

You have every right to your opinion, but whether you live in Ireland, Scotland or even England. There are still old timers around who fought in that war. If they saw some young person giving Nazi Salutes, they would be offended. Those people sacrificed much so that people of your generation did not have to deal with such bull****. Last, by your comments above I dont think you understand why so many TV networks keep bring up Nazi Germany. They continue to do it so it is never forgotten, because if you forget history, it can very easily repeat itself. 

Peace

It might seem offensive, but the risk of being offensive is just one of the many freedoms that the war was fought for.  I worked in a care home and met many 'old timers' who were against the war and hated Churchill so much that they did not believe any of the allied propaganda after the withdrawal at Dunkirk and were happy to boot Churchill out of office when the war was over.  I remember they said the Germans that they captured were the most polite and nicest people they ever met, and they never heard them mention the Jews or speak of any hatred towards the Jews despite being fed and clothed by a number of them without any complaints, and some of the soldiers maintained close friendships with quite a number of former Nazis that settling in Ireland after the war.  Like I said, everything has to be put into proper context and understood from their perspective.

e.g  In the Ten commandments we are told not to take the Lord's name in vain, but I hear it being said repeatedly on daytime television and in public without any complaints.  It is deeply offensive to me, but not offensive at all to many.  Witnessing and hearing things that we do not like and take great offense to is just one of the many things that freedom gives us.  The freedom to offend and be offended.  That is life.  That is freedom.

 

 

Edited by Aaron2016
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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

It might seem offensive, but the risk of being offensive is just one of the many freedoms that the war was fought for.  I worked in a care home and met many 'old timers' who were against the war and hated Churchill so much that they did not believe any of the allied propaganda after the withdrawal at Dunkirk and were happy to boot Churchill out of office when the war was over.  I remember they said the Germans that they captured were the most polite and nicest people they ever met, and they never heard them mention the Jews or speak of any hatred towards the Jews despite being fed and clothed by a number of them without any complaints, and some of the soldiers maintained close friendships with quite a number of former Nazis that settling in Ireland after the war.  Like I said, everything has to be put into proper context and understood from their perspective.

e.g  In the Ten commandments we are told not to take the Lord's name in vain, but I hear it being said repeatedly on daytime television and in public without any complaints.  It is deeply offensive to me, but not offensive at all to many.  Witnessing and hearing things that we do not like and take great offense to is just one of the many things that freedom gives us.  The freedom to offend and be offended.  That is life.  That is freedom.

 

 

Your experience and mine are to different things, I can see the you appear to be a Holocaust denier. You are welcome to your opinion. But I personally have nothing else to say to you.

Peace

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Manwon Lender
6 hours ago, bee said:

 

his comment was amusing*.... that's what makes a certain kind of humour funny...
it's near the bone... reflecting the hidden realities and presenting juxtapositions -
paradoxes and whatnot.... the British (and Irish) sense of humour can be a bit like that...
hovering on the dark and dangerous in an innocent way... daring to go near the truth...
sometimes too near the truth for many people's liking... and the shock value adds to
the hilarity....

I think that in times gone by... it was only the Court Jester that was allowed to say funny
and critical things about the King.... without getting his head chopped off... and Comedy,
in the broader sense is like that..... well until the politically correct nonsense kills off the
deeper humour... and just leaves the childish slap stick kind...


edit to add the *

*to me but it's all relative I suppose...

 

 

 

First of all Court Jesters didn't have a very long life, because of comments they made when the King was having a bad day. Next if you find his comments humorous that's your opinion, but to Germans who were not born during the time frame of WW II, those comments are repugnant. You see that War is still thrown in people's face to this very day, and most Germans who were born after the war still are guilt tripped for something they had nothing to do with.

I am an American, however, I am also a German, my Father and Mother immigrated to the US in the 1950s and I was born in the USA. My father and many relatives served in the German Military in WW II, I have heard the stories first hand concerning life in Germany and abroad during the War. Maybe I am too sensitive about this subject and maybe I am not sensitive at all, but one thing is for certain, I don't need a Holocaust denier intentional trying  to get a rise out of people, speaking about things he has no knowledge of.

peace  

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