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spartan max2

Corrections trainees fired over Nazi salute

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bee
10 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

If you believe that, then you are more delusional than I realized.  The average German who became recruited into the army were not spawns of Satan.  Any one of us could have been put in their situation.  If you live in Germany then do the decent thing and show your fallen men and women some respect.  If you told them about the atrocities taking place then they would be equally outraged.  They deserve our compassion, not ignorant dismissal and condemnation.  You can't condemn farmers feeding the soldiers by force and everyone associated with the administration as spawns of Satan.  The British fired on the French fleet and bombed civilian cities like Dresden.  One could easily characterise the British as 'spawns of satan' but some of us can easily see they were not.  The victors of war will always be praised and the fallen enemy will be blamed for absolutely anything and everything connected to Satan.  Look at America and the old race war, or the situation between Iran and America.  Each side accusing the other of being possessed by the devil.  You said the Nazis were responsible for 55 million deaths.  A slight exaggeration?  What about the wide spread cases of disease across Europe during the war.  I suppose the Germans were responsible for every death caused by Typhus and also all deaths from natural causes in Europe between 1939 - 1945 as well.  Of course anyone who dares to investigate and revise the numbers is immediately labelled a holocaust denier.  There is nothing to fear in seeking the truth.

 

 

 

bolded...... that's a brave and civilized thing to say....

'to err is human, to forgive divine'

The leaders / creators of atrocities are harder to forgive, but  ordinary citizens caught up in it all
with no real opt out... apart from (ultimately) facing the firing squad or a bullet in the back of the
head .... and sacrificing the lives of their family...... they are also victims of the 'evil',,,,  (IMO)

 

 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

The way I see it, any ****er who pulled the trigger can **** right off to hell. The ones who knew and turned a blind eye can **** off to hell as well. Innocent Hilda who liked that Hitler chap? Nah, she’s fine. Little Joesph who was inducted into the Hitler Youth? Victim.

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bee
7 hours ago, Habitat said:

The problem with banging on about how terrible the Nazis were, and they were bad news for sure, is that it makes it look like they were an aberration, and we ourselves would never be party to such mayhem. The risk is not us, it is safely externalised in others, and it is them we need to fear. But of course we have had the luxury of not being put to the test, people can do uncharacteristic things when put in positions of power, and especially if it appears there will be no retribution for it. Be wary of your own inner Nazi, who may come out if extraordinary circumstances allow it.

 

wise words..... thanks...

most of us don't know how we would act if really tested because we live (most of us on the forum?)
safe, comfortable and privileged lives...

we all like to think that we would 'do the right thing'.... but circumstances aren't always black and white
and I think it's best to be able to discuss these difficult subjects in a rational way rather than try to silence
discussion with accusations and ostracism...

there seems to be differing degrees of savagery lurking in individuals, behind the veneer of being a civilized
member of society..
best to recognize what the base side of us is capable of... to understand it and keep it under control... 

IMO

 

  

 

 

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Habitat
7 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The way I see it, any ****er who pulled the trigger can **** right off to hell. The ones who knew and turned a blind eye can **** off to hell as well. Innocent Hilda who liked that Hitler chap? Nah, she’s fine. Little Joesph who was inducted into the Hitler Youth? Victim.

Rough justice, sounds like the Nazis !

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Sir Wearer of Hats
14 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Rough justice, sounds like the Nazis !

Nazis love elaborate justice, show trials, forced confessions that sort of thing. Me? I’m for simple justice, the guilty can **** off, the innocent toddle off free.

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Aaron2016
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

You never mention you didn't believe in the numbers stated for the Holocaust, until now if you did I missed the post. Pulling up a YouTube video with a Catholic Bishop denieing the Holocaust means nothing. Since the Vatican was falsifying documents hiding war criminals and issuing fake passports to SS War Criminals fleeing Europe using a Catholic to prove your point is completely futile. 

You are certainly entitled to you opinion, and I am entitled to mine by your own words above and your video you have clearly shown that you are a Holocaust denier. You can twist it anyway you choose to, like I said your posts making light of everything throughout this thread clued me into your true opinion on this subject, and this post verifies it as a fact.

peace

I don't deny the Holocaust.  I question the official numbers which is a different thing entirely, because everybody else is afraid to, or is not allowed to.  I want to know how many died from Typhus and other diseases.  How many died from starvation due to the allied bombing of the railways.  How many from domestic crimes, motor car accidents, factory deaths, smoking, pollution, the cold, natural death, old age, medication issues, malnutrition, friendly fire etc etc.  Apparently that is not allowed to be addressed and deducted from the official figures.  e.g. The fatality rate might have been quite high even if there was no war at all, just as it is today.  Now take that separate figure and deduct it from the alleged 55 million that the Nazis are accused of murdering despite the fact that very few of them were given any opportunity to claim their innocence.  Like I said everything has to be sensibly assessed and put into proper context.  The Nazis occupied territories that saw no fighting whatever and were just as glad when the war was over as the allies were because it meant they could stop playing soldier and go home, and their treatment after the war was inhumane by the Soviets.

I never said I denied the holocaust.  I said every individual should be given the benefit of doubt and see the war through their individual perspective, before assuming they are all 'spawns of satan' because anyone of us could have been in their shoes and made exactly the same choices e.g.  Father killed in WW1, mother slaves away in the 1920's and dies of malnutrition and exhaustion, and then you vow never to allow your children to live and die like that, and in 1939 you either take a well paid job working in an arms factory, or you see your entire community joining the German forces and reclaiming former German territory.  You are filled with so much love and patriotism that you regard it as an exciting adventure.  The years go by, and you wish the war was over.  Finally you come home and find your home destroyed, and your entire family is dead or missing, and on top of that you are accused of being a radical Nazi who killed millions of Jews.  So you keep your head down and refuse to dignify what happened to anyone because they are not seeking answers and understanding, they are just seeking blame and condemnation.

Now you see what an individual perspective is like.  Yet all of them are called 'spawns of satan'.  That is what I dispute.

 

Edited by Aaron2016

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Aaron2016
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

 

It's worse then 6 million.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

 

And it's accurate. The Nazi's SS officers and other told us themselves during the trials. The Nazi's also kept records of these things, researchers looked at census and deportation data.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/holocaust-remembrance-day/6-million-where-is-the-figure-from-1.5319546

 

Your skepticism is nonething new, psychologically speaking people have a hard time of believing anything that is truly horrible on a mass scale, because we can't imagine ourselves doing it. 

Many people did not believe the Holocaust was happening until the pictures after the war. 

We know now.

You said it is worse than 6 million.  That means you dispute the official 6 million figure.  Therefore you just admitted you are a holocaust denier.  See how ridiculous that is.  The Bishop did not dispute the fact that a holocaust took place.  He disputed the allegations that gas chambers were used.  Yet that makes him a holocaust denier because he refuted the means of execution.  I don't refute that a Holocaust took place.  I just find it strange that the official 6 million figure was repeated for decades 'before the war'.  I counted about 200 accounts from the 1890's - 1940's.  You don't find that odd or even question why?  Allegedly in the Torah it says that the Jewish state of Israel is spiritually justified and states that 6 million Jews must perish before Israel can rise again.  This is why Muslim clerics refute the official Holocaust numbers.  They don't deny the Holocaust.  They just dispute the numbers which spiritually justify the Jewish occupation of Israel/Palestine.  e.g.  The former leader of Iran said:

"If this is indeed a historical event, why do they want to turn it into a Holy thing, and nobody should be allowed to ask any questions about that, and let nobody study, or be permitted to research it.  Why?  If this is a historical documented event, why do Western states show so much sensitivity towards a historical event.  They don't want the lid to be taken off.  I am asking them to permit studies."

Sadly anyone who dares challenge the official figure is automatically labelled anti-Semitic, a denier, and therefore against Israel.  This is why the topic of the Holocaust is such a no-go area.  The issue I have is that I am not allowed to confirm or deny what happened.  I am forced to believe what I am told to believe, and not to ask any concerning questions about it.  That is the only beef I have about it.

 

Edited by Aaron2016
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Farmer77
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, bee said:

 

now now ....  why are you lashing out and trying to silence Aaron2016.... ?
 

@Aaron2016

You appear to have broken Farmer77......:w00t:

Many have tried but you did it...... without even trying ^_^

 

 

 

Nah. Lashing out would imply somthing like equality.

I was simply identifying :tu:

Edited by Farmer77

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

I don't deny the Holocaust.  I question the official numbers which is a different thing entirely, because everybody else is afraid to, or is not allowed to.  I want to know how many died from Typhus and other diseases.  How many died from starvation due to the allied bombing of the railways.  How many from domestic crimes, motor car accidents, factory deaths, smoking, pollution, the cold, natural death, old age, medication issues, malnutrition, friendly fire etc etc.  Apparently that is not allowed to be addressed and deducted from the official figures.  e.g. The fatality rate might have been quite high even if there was no war at all, just as it is today.  Now take that separate figure and deduct it from the alleged 55 million that the Nazis are accused of murdering despite the fact that very few of them were given any opportunity to claim their innocence.  Like I said everything has to be sensibly assessed and put into proper context.  The Nazis occupied territories that saw no fighting whatever and were just as glad when the war was over as the allies were because it meant they could stop playing soldier and go home, and their treatment after the war was inhumane by the Soviets.

I never said I denied the holocaust.  I said every individual should be given the benefit of doubt and see the war through their individual perspective, before assuming they are all 'spawns of satan' because anyone of us could have been in their shoes and made exactly the same choices e.g.  Father killed in WW1, mother slaves away in the 1920's and dies of malnutrition and exhaustion, and then you vow never to allow your children to live and die like that, and in 1939 you either take a well paid job working in an arms factory, or you see your entire community joining the German forces and reclaiming former German territory.  You are filled with so much love and patriotism that you regard it as an exciting adventure.  The years go by, and you wish the war was over.  Finally you come home and find your home destroyed, and your entire family is dead or missing, and on top of that you are accused of being a radical Nazi who killed millions of Jews.  So you keep your head down and refuse to dignify what happened to anyone because they are not seeking answers and understanding, they are just seeking blame and condemnation.

Now you see what an individual perspective is like.  Yet all of them are called 'spawns of satan'.  That is what I dispute.

 

First Herr Goebbels who started the War? Its obvious it was the Germans and the Japanese. Next when we say the Holocuast we are speaking specifically about the number of deaths that occurred in forced / slave labour Camps, concentration camps, or by mobile death squads, these people who were arrested simply because they didn't meet the genetic profile that the Nazis felt should be allowed to exist. In addition there were those who were sent to Concentration Camps because their political ideology didn't fit with that of the Nazi regime. Now none of these forms of death were like you describe above which due to War not Mass murder.

Now one thing about the Germans was that they kept very very good records concerning those who were executed in concentration Camps, by mobile death squads who simply executed and buried their victims in mass graves in the manner in which they did in Russia. The  Einsatzgruppen ( Moble Death Squads ) made up of SS and Police followed the advancing German Army and picked up and executed Jews and others who they felt to be inferior or politically dangerous to the Nazi regime. Again even during these Mobil executions very precise records were kept of the number killed and the locations of the mass graves.

Again and for me this is the last time I will respond to any comments you make, the Holocuast can't be compared to the normal attrition of death due to the War. When the word Holocuast is used it is speaking of whole sale Mufder, those the Nazis felt were genetically inferior or those who were politically dangerous to the Nazi Regime. By your statements in your post you are trying to confuse the subject intentionally and that is plain to anyone who reads your comments. This is what Holocuast deniers do, so along with all your previous posts you obviously fit the description perfectly. If you don't understand that Her Goebbels fine with me because I am though trying to explain this subject to someone who is convinced it didn't happen according to history.

Peace

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Manwon Lender
6 hours ago, bee said:


I can understand that..... but Aaron2016 isn't condemning you or guilt tripping you -
quite the opposite as far as I can see...
 

 

Aaron2016 said he wasn't a holocaust denier.... and I think you are misunderstanding the points he's
making on this subject - just because you are '''triggered''' by his comments and analysis doesn't mean
that he said them to get a rise...

The British, too, have got into some ugly things in out history and we the General Public probably don't know
the half of it....

Even as recent as 2011... our (the British) involvement in the destruction of Libya and the brutal murder
of Gaddaffi..... was NOT something to be proud of.... but it happened in our name and we were, in reality,
powerless to stop it... sometimes groups of leaders and military who control the Media and the Armed
Forces.... get together and DO THINGS..... in our name but not really with our consent -

 

No Herr Geobbels isn't condemning anyone here. He's just saying he doesn't believe that the numbers of those killed in the Holocaust are even close to being accurate, which is exactly what a Holocuast Denier does. He claims in a later post to this thread that many of death can be attributed to smoking, car crashes, and many other forms of death that have nothing to do with the Holocuast. 

I really don't care what Herr Goebbels says he isn't, he is now known as the propaganda ministers of UM. That all he has been doing through out this thread, I am not the only one who feels this way others also see him for what he is, it shame he can't see it for himself.

peace

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rashore

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