Mars - The current water theory

[fred_mc]

The following is a phase diagram for water. It shows at which pressures and temperatures that water can exist in solid form as ice (s), in liquid form (l), and in gas form as water vapour (v).

As can be seen, the pressure needs to be above 0.006 atmospheres for water to exist in liquid form. The average pressure on Mars is 0.006-0.007 atmospheres. That is just on the edge. My interpretation of this is that it would barely be possible for water to exist in liquid form on Mars but the temperature would have to be more or less exactly 0.01 C, which would only occur close to the equator on Mars I think, and only during a few seconds of the day, since the temperature varies widely during a day on Mars due to that there is no atmosphere to hold on to an atmosphere. Also, it would have to be a day of above average pressure on that place on Mars. However, phase transitions take some time, and I don't think that the temperature will stay at exactly 0.01 C long enough, so in practise I think water can't exist in liquid form anyway, it would probably go pretty much directly between ice and vapour also at these very specific conditions.

However, I have read that if the water is salty, it would change the diagram below in such a way so that the water could actually exist in liquid form on Mars during a brief period of time. However, also then I think it would require temperatures and pressures that would only exist for a very short time period but at least it might be possible.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by fred_mc

[ocpaul20]

Yes, I understand the science on Earth as presented here and I am not saying the science is wrong. The problem is, I look at these photos (which scientists use to determine things about Mars) and I see what maybe evidence for liquid flowing. There are obviously other scientists who also think there is something which needs to be investigated further as I posted in the opening post. When something we understand in science does not fit in with the current theory what happens? We investigate what is happening, dont we? Shutting down the discussion just because "it cannot happen" is not good science.

You need to give it up already. You are rapidly losing credibility.

According to some, I dont have any credibility on here anyway, so what is there to lose? It is unlikely I am alone in these thoughts and anyway....why are you trying to shut down the discussion on these images?

Your first low-resolution picture could be the way wind has blown sand mounds, it could be hot geezers releasing steam, or it could be nothing being mistaken as something because of the low-resolution. Your second could be the way the dirt has been blown across rocks, its hard to tell because of the low-resolution. Except during the middle of the day, at the height of summer, on the equator, then the conditions do not arise for liquid water to exist.

wind blown sand mounds - The 'streams' do not appear to be coming off the top of the cliff, so no, this is unlikely.

hot geysers releasing steam - which would suggest there was plenty of water underground. We have not seen volcanic action or evidence of heat at the surface, so this is unlikely also. Thos 'streams' are pretty impressive in size. Look at the resolution I posted of the image.

nothing mistaken for something - yes it could. That is what I am asking for, a discussion on what may be being shown in these images. I think it looks like evidence for water both huge amounts underground and flowing on the surface recently.

the way the dirt has been blown across rocks - This, for me, is a stretch for the imagination. What would make darker coloured 'dirt' blow into these patterns which look as if it is past flowing water? What about the indentation marked in that dirt then?

 

[ocpaul20]

No...I didn't think RabidMongoose would come back to to this thread and come up with some other unlikely causes to explain this liquid.

And we still have not established whether these 'water grooves cut into the rock' are supposed to be in the post #1 image or the post #10 image.

I just have to assume that this is a vague desperate attempt at an explanation.

[Weitter Duckss]

To scientists who study Mars, the oxygen story is curiously similar to that of methane. Methane is constantly in the air inside Gale Crater in such small quantities (0.00000004% on average) that it’s barely discernable even by the most sensitive instruments on Mars. Nov. 12, 2019 „With Mars Methane Mystery Unsolved, Curiosity Serves Scientists a New One: Oxygen“

„The Curiosity rover has documented seasonal fluctuations of atmospheric methane levels on Mars. These fluctuations peaked at the end of the Martian summer at 0.6 parts per billion.“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#Methane_radical_reactions

The geological composition of the Mars surface: Mars is a terrestrial planet, consisting of the minerals of silicon and oxygen, metals and other elements that usually form rocks. The plagioclase feldspar NaAlSi3O8 to CaAl2Si2O8; pyroxenes are silicon-aluminium oxides with Ca, Na, Fe, Mg, Zn, Mn, Li replaced with Si and Al; hematite Fe2O3, olivine (Mg+2, Fe+2)2SiO4; Fe3O4 .. Wikipedia)

The lack of H2

The chemical composition of its atmosphere is:
carbon-dioxide 95,97%;
argon 1,93%;
nitrogen 1,89%;
oxygen 0,146%;
carbon-monoxide 0,0557%,
which in total makes 99,9917% of the elements and compounds, present in its atmosphere.

Pictures are like divination from the grounds of coffee. Grounds of coffee is dry as gunpowder, but who wants it: see the water, ET, the Virgin Mary ...

[tmcom]

On 1/19/2020 at 7:11 PM, ocpaul20 said:

No...I didn't think RabidMongoose would come back to to this thread and come up with some other unlikely causes to explain this liquid.

And we still have not established whether these 'water grooves cut into the rock' are supposed to be in the post #1 image or the post #10 image.

I just have to assume that this is a vague desperate attempt at an explanation.

Yes, some get nervous, that their NASA isn't lying idea may lose ground, or l will show my best discoveries and really p**** the faithful off, (ok, here is one, salty??? Depends on whether this came from a spring or somewhere else, lol.

On 1/25/2020 at 9:26 AM, Weitter Duckss said:

To scientists who study Mars, the oxygen story is curiously similar to that of methane. Methane is constantly in the air inside Gale Crater in such small quantities (0.00000004% on average) that it’s barely discernable even by the most sensitive instruments on Mars. Nov. 12, 2019 „With Mars Methane Mystery Unsolved, Curiosity Serves Scientists a New One: Oxygen“

„The Curiosity rover has documented seasonal fluctuations of atmospheric methane levels on Mars. These fluctuations peaked at the end of the Martian summer at 0.6 parts per billion.“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#Methane_radical_reactions

The geological composition of the Mars surface: Mars is a terrestrial planet, consisting of the minerals of silicon and oxygen, metals and other elements that usually form rocks. The plagioclase feldspar NaAlSi3O8 to CaAl2Si2O8; pyroxenes are silicon-aluminium oxides with Ca, Na, Fe, Mg, Zn, Mn, Li replaced with Si and Al; hematite Fe2O3, olivine (Mg+2, Fe+2)2SiO4; Fe3O4 .. Wikipedia)

The lack of H2

The chemical composition of its atmosphere is:
carbon-dioxide 95,97%;
argon 1,93%;
nitrogen 1,89%;
oxygen 0,146%;
carbon-monoxide 0,0557%,
which in total makes 99,9917% of the elements and compounds, present in its atmosphere.

Pictures are like divination from the grounds of coffee. Grounds of coffee is dry as gunpowder, but who wants it: see the water, ET, the Virgin Mary ...

True, "See Mars being the only planet in our solar system with a disappearing atmosphere", (Viking 1977 third one, Hubble first)!

[ocpaul20]

On 1/25/2020 at 6:26 AM, Weitter Duckss said:

Pictures are like divination from the grounds of coffee. Grounds of coffee is dry as gunpowder, but who wants it: see the water, ET, the Virgin Mary ...

Data from instruments and pictures are the lifeblood of planetry scientists. They can hardly be regarded as coffee grounds since a lot of what we know about other space environments is determined by looking at images taken from spacecraft and robots on the ground.

Photos dont lie unless they are doctored or "processed" by someone, however if you are saying all these off-world images are virtually useless, then I would agree. I have seen a sample MER Pancam image taken on Earth and it shows amazing detail with focus being pin sharp from 1m to infinity. As soon as it gets to Mars, somehow it gets all blurry like Sasquatch photos.

On one end we have the science types who like their world to be ordered and safe and like to pretend there is nothing resembling life on Mars. On the other end of the scale we have people who are looking for anomalies which need investigating. Science SHOULD be investigating unusual things and if it isn't then we need to ask why. I think there are enough things which have been highlighted over the years to warrant further investigation and some explanations should be forthcoming from scientists. Why it isn't forthcoming, we can only guess at.

 

 

 

 

[Waspie_Dwarf]

16 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

. As soon as it gets to Mars, somehow it gets all blurry like Sasquatch photos.

Nonsense

The camera's are fine, it's the conspiracy theorists that don't function correctly. They take images, magnify them to moronic levels, so that they become pixilated, claim they see things that aren't their and then make totally false claims like yours.

 

24 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

On one end we have the science types who like their world to be ordered and safe and like to pretend there is nothing resembling life on Mars.

More nonsense.

No scientist is pretending anything. No scientist is claiming that there is "nothing resembling life on on Mars". What scientists ARE saying is that there is not yet enough evidence to prove that there is currently life on Mars, a totally different thing from your false claim

If you had an iota of logic in you, you would deduce that NASA, ESA and other agencies wouldn't be spending billions on rovers to look for life if there was any truth in your claim. There is, however a huge difference between genuine evidence and the self-delusional foolishness of those that can't comprehend, or whose ego won't let them accept, the concept of paradoeia. Just because a few people with a lack of credibility and an excess of wishful think see imaginary aliens in photos that is no reason for the scientist, who do actually know what they are looking at, to take them seriously.

 

20 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

 I think there are enough things which have been highlighted over the years to warrant further investigation and some explanations should be forthcoming from scientists. Why it isn't forthcoming, we can only guess at.

And even more nonsense.

For those that have forgone logic and reason for irrational belief it is easy to reject evidence because it doesn't fit with their conformational bias. There is a name for only accepting evidence that fits your view and rejecting that which doesn't, it is cherry picking and it is, of course, a logical fallacy. Rejecting reality because it doesn't fit your beliefs isn't scientific thinking, it's the worst excesses of false religion.

[tmcom]

8 hours ago, ocpaul20 said:

Data from instruments and pictures are the lifeblood of planetry scientists. They can hardly be regarded as coffee grounds since a lot of what we know about other space environments is determined by looking at images taken from spacecraft and robots on the ground.

Photos dont lie unless they are doctored or "processed" by someone, however if you are saying all these off-world images are virtually useless, then I would agree. I have seen a sample MER Pancam image taken on Earth and it shows amazing detail with focus being pin sharp from 1m to infinity. As soon as it gets to Mars, somehow it gets all blurry like Sasquatch photos.

On one end we have the science types who like their world to be ordered and safe and like to pretend there is nothing resembling life on Mars. On the other end of the scale we have people who are looking for anomalies which need investigating. Science SHOULD be investigating unusual things and if it isn't then we need to ask why. I think there are enough things which have been highlighted over the years to warrant further investigation and some explanations should be forthcoming from scientists. Why it isn't forthcoming, we can only guess at.

Yes, nicely put Ocpau, true some don't want to believe that any coverups are happening, or money grabs, so won't entertain solid evidence of such, and crap on as such.

Mars atmosphere Cannot reappear and disappear depending on what camera is facing it, since it is absurd and the current rovers would be showing a black sky in one and a blue sky in another.

Viking approaching Mars in 1977, no atmosphere, Hubble takes a closup image and a strong blue atmosphere is present, which means NASA is intentionally BS us, it is black and white,

And why is NASA lying about the blue sky? The fudged oven experiment, gives a hint.

[Weitter Duckss]

4 hours ago, tmcom said:

And why is NASA lying about the blue sky? The fudged oven experiment, gives a hint.

Still, some of the data needs a look at the source (NASA).

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2426/sunrise-and-sunset-on-mars-2019/?category=planets_mars

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2431/sunset-at-mars-gusev-crater-spirit/?category=planets_mars

jpg. format

More on: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/mars/galleries/?page=0&per_page=25&order=created_at+desc&search=&href_query_params=category%3Dplanets_mars&button_class=big_more_button&tags=mars&condition_1=1%3Ais_in_resource_list&category=51

[Jon the frog]

On 1/3/2020 at 1:53 PM, OverSword said:

 

Truth be told is that the description of Mars will be constantly updated and changed as we learn and understand more.  At one point flowing water was a given and a canal building civilization an assumed probability, then there was no water on mars because an ancient catastrophe had cast the water and most of the atmosphere into space. Now only ancient frozen water beneath the poles exist.  Maybe in 50 years we will assume that mars is a developing world that may one day replace earth as the cradle of life in our solar system, who knows?

Maybe when our water and atmosphere will be blown into space, Mars will get his share.

[+OverSword]

4 minutes ago, Jon the frog said:

Maybe when our water and atmosphere will be blown into space, Mars will get his share.

And bring with it the seeds of life 

[tmcom]

On 2/23/2020 at 1:25 AM, Weitter Duckss said:

Still, some of the data needs a look at the source (NASA).

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2426/sunrise-and-sunset-on-mars-2019/?category=planets_mars

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2431/sunset-at-mars-gusev-crater-spirit/?category=planets_mars

jpg. format

More on: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/mars/galleries/?page=0&per_page=25&order=created_at+desc&search=&href_query_params=category%3Dplanets_mars&button_class=big_more_button&tags=mars&condition_1=1%3Ais_in_resource_list&category=51

This is the actual sunset!

Taken by Curiosity rover in morning twilight on August 31, 2012.

The blue sun occurs for about 15 minutes, but not every time and for the entire sunset.

Yeah, time wasted!

[Weitter Duckss]

5 hours ago, tmcom said:

This is the actual sunset!

Taken by Curiosity rover in morning twilight on August 31, 2012.

The blue sun occurs for about 15 minutes, but not every time and for the entire sunset.

Yeah, time wasted!

Try to attach a link with data transfer.

I like your comment, concise, informative and polite.

[tmcom]

4 hours ago, Weitter Duckss said:

Try to attach a link with data transfer.

I like your comment, concise, informative and polite.

A link lol, since this is reality and not what warm and fuzzy NASA keep feeding the media, l doubt that a link is available.

And thank you for the compliment makes a change from the goon squad's fear bender.

 

[Weitter Duckss]

4 hours ago, tmcom said:

A link lol, since this is reality and not what warm and fuzzy NASA keep feeding the media, l doubt that a link is available.

And thank you for the compliment makes a change from the goon squad's fear bender.

 

I don't bite. My tone is most often caused by a commentary. Attack on comment can be civilized and argumentative.

The links above are NASA images in jpg format that are not false.

<img alt="three color-coded views of rocky moonlet" id="main_image" src="/system/resources/detail_files/2442_PIA23205_med.jpg">

[tmcom]

2 hours ago, Weitter Duckss said:

 

I don't bite. My tone is most often caused by a commentary. Attack on comment can be civilized and argumentative.

The links above are NASA images in jpg format that are not false.

<img alt="three color-coded views of rocky moonlet" id="main_image" src="/system/resources/detail_files/2442_PIA23205_med.jpg">

I don't doubt that, but it was a screen capture from an image someone else posted elsewhere, or it would take some digging.

Mars also has a lot of reflective rocks about, so l have seen so many bright orange/yellow sunsets on Mars, l have lost count.

Why would NASA only show blue sunsets when Mars has sunsets like ours, (the sun is the same just 20% more distant than Earth)?

It seems that Mars has normal and blue only sunsets as well as disappearing and reappearing blue sky's or atmosphere, or NASA has a wolf in sheep's clothing lurking in the flock, which isn't enough to spook them, but enough so the black sheep can see.

Edited March 12, 2020 by tmcom

[Essan]

As on Earth, the colour of the sky, and of sunsets, can vary according to the amount of dust in the atmosphere.  Which is not constant.

[Weitter Duckss]

6 hours ago, tmcom said:

I don't doubt that, but it was a screen capture from an image someone else posted elsewhere, or it would take some digging.

Mars also has a lot of reflective rocks about, so l have seen so many bright orange/yellow sunsets on Mars, l have lost count.

Why would NASA only show blue sunsets when Mars has sunsets like ours, (the sun is the same just 20% more distant than Earth)?

It seems that Mars has normal and blue only sunsets as well as disappearing and reappearing blue sky's or atmosphere, or NASA has a wolf in sheep's clothing lurking in the flock, which isn't enough to spook them, but enough so the black sheep can see.

The original photo may look completely unrealistic. Here are some examples if they pass.
It's not over. I set the photo at the end of the page https://www.svemir-ipaksevrti.com/ 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Weitter Duckss

[tmcom]

4 hours ago, Essan said:

As on Earth, the colour of the sky, and of sunsets, can vary according to the amount of dust in the atmosphere.  Which is not constant.

The dust in the sky does affect sunsets on Mars, but not in one dusk all blue the next dusk orange/yellow.

Or it just add's green to the orange/yellow, (also seen green on occasion).

Green is caused by mixing blue, (sky) with orange, (more gray) dust particles.

If you go to Google Images you will find at least one image showing the green sky during a dust storm, (l posted it here a while ago).

 

[Weitter Duckss]

11 minutes ago, tmcom said:

The dust in the sky does affect sunsets on Mars, but not in one dusk all blue the next dusk orange/yellow.

Or it just add's green to the orange/yellow, (also seen green on occasion).

Green is caused by mixing blue, (sky) with orange, (more gray) dust particles.

If you go to Google Images you will find at least one image showing the green sky during a dust storm, (l posted it here a while ago).

 

That goes.
However, the second and third photographs were made within minutes of the difference. This points to a number of other factors.
The next two images (sunrise and sunset) are 3-4 years of difference.

[tmcom]

[Weitter Duckss]

Nice. It looks totally false, earthy atmosphere. From what would be clouds on Mars?

Atmosphere[9][14]
Surface pressure	0.636 (0.4–0.87) kPa 0.00628 atm
Composition by volume	95.97% carbon dioxide 1.93% argon 1.89% nitrogen 0.146% oxygen 0.0557% carbon monoxide 0.0210% water vapor 0.0100% nitrogen oxide 0.00025% neon 0.00008% hydrogen deuterium oxide 0.00003% krypton 0.00001% xenon

„what the lunar water cycle looks like.

Note that all this is still less amount of water than the driest deserts on Earth.“ https://phys.org/news/2020-03-india-chandrayaan-highest-resolution-moon.html

[tmcom]

The one above is photoshopped or a representation only.

This one is real!

Yellow sun, orange clouds and clouds remarkably similar to Earth. And NASA ONLY shows high altitude clouds in their images directly, probably because this and many other images l have found in my wasted 10 years of searching show clouds like Earth.

Clouds usually means,........

Edited March 13, 2020 by tmcom
NASA lies about global warming so,.....

[Weitter Duckss]

11 hours ago, tmcom said:

Yellow sun, orange clouds and clouds remarkably similar to Earth. And NASA ONLY shows high altitude clouds in their images directly, probably because this and many other images l have found in my wasted 10 years of searching show clouds like Earth.

Clouds usually means,........

https://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/science/clouds.html

„The bright streaks are probably ice clouds which have formed during the night. In the true colour image, the clouds appear to be blue compared to the background.“

 

„The minimal temperature on Mars is -143°C, while the average and maximal one are -63°C and +35°C respectively. The chemical composition of its atmosphere is: carbon-dioxide 95,97%; argon 1,93%; nitrogen 1,89%; oxygen 0,146%; carbon-monoxide 0,0557%, which in total makes 99,9917% of the elements and compounds, present in its atmosphere.

 

.. and that CO2 freezes at -56,6°C (CO2 has the melting point of -56,6°C (its triple point at 5,1 atm) and it evaporates at -78,5°C,..“ 

 

CO2 are ice clouds which have formed during the night. 

[tmcom]

5 hours ago, Weitter Duckss said:

https://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/science/clouds.html

„The bright streaks are probably ice clouds which have formed during the night. In the true colour image, the clouds appear to be blue compared to the background.“

„The minimal temperature on Mars is -143°C, while the average and maximal one are -63°C and +35°C respectively. The chemical composition of its atmosphere is: carbon-dioxide 95,97%; argon 1,93%; nitrogen 1,89%; oxygen 0,146%; carbon-monoxide 0,0557%, which in total makes 99,9917% of the elements and compounds, present in its atmosphere.

.. and that CO2 freezes at -56,6°C (CO2 has the melting point of -56,6°C (its triple point at 5,1 atm) and it evaporates at -78,5°C,..“

CO2 are ice clouds which have formed during the night. 

We could have this conversation forever with the ineviatable goon squad showing up, so all l will say is, don't believe in NASA numbers, and l strongly believe that they are water based clouds.