Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #101 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Aaron2016 said: It may turn out like this. Releasing documents to the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jujo-jo Posted January 10, 2020 #102 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Habitat said: this church/Nazi stuff is old news, without explanation for why it has been dredged up again, it just looks like an attempt to push an agenda, it is certainly no mystery that it happened. It's being brought up because the topic will soon be all over the news here in another couple of months. It seems as though it is a current affair. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted January 10, 2020 #103 Share Posted January 10, 2020 OK, if they actually release all the relevant papers, it will be of interest. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted January 10, 2020 #104 Share Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/7/2020 at 6:10 AM, Manwon Lender said: They certainly did Verner Von Bruan is one if them. He designed and built the V-1 and V-2 Rockets. He was captured by the US with other rocket scientists and taken back to rhe USA. Where he was responsible for all the rocket designs fir our space program. Without and others we would not have made it to the Moon. But let me note these scientists were not directly responsible for the death of millions of people, they were scientists not mass murders. peace I don't think anyone at Neuremburg was charged with murder. Hubertus Strughold conducted human experimentation that lead to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted January 10, 2020 #105 Share Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/7/2020 at 11:53 AM, Manwon Lender said: No, the Church is guilty because it was knowingly and deliberately hiding War Criminals as monks and in other ways until they could be transported to South America. If you want to disprove this, do it, if you can't then it stands and it should stand because it is a fact that high ranking members of the Clergy at the Vatican and who were located in Croatia were directly and knowingly involved in these acts. Peace. Your Wikipedia link also mentions the Red Cross. Bishop Hudal seems to be a bit of a rogue in the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 10, 2020 #106 Share Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/4/2020 at 11:52 AM, Manwon Lender said: I would like to discuss why the Catholic Church and especially the Vatican would facilitate War Criminals dripping with the Blood of their victims to escape Justice. I don't know, nor have I heard, nor do I care...about the Catholic Church facilitating Nazis dripping with blood. They have 'dripped' enough innocent blood over the centuries all by themselves. Actually, the Catholic Church's dripping may pale in comparison to Hitler's. It just happened over a long, long, long period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted January 10, 2020 #107 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, joc said: I don't know, nor have I heard, nor do I care...about the Catholic Church facilitating Nazis dripping with blood. They have 'dripped' enough innocent blood over the centuries all by themselves. Actually, the Catholic Church's dripping may pale in comparison to Hitler's. It just happened over a long, long, long period of time. I don't know joc, but I think you were trying to say something different to how it read. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted January 10, 2020 #108 Share Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 1:02 PM, Jujo-jo said: Thanks for the link, I admit I don't know much about this topic but wwii is one of my favorite topics and you hear very little about the roles the Catholic church played, when it is mentioned it is about the opposite role. We're talking about one good Pope and a handful of people here, out of how many and out of how many individual churches. From what I have come to believe is that some if not most nazi's and pro nazi citizens were Catholic. The list of people assisnated who are mentioned in the link for helping jewish people are very few compared to the general population of the German citizens who assassinated for doing the same thing. Quoting from the link ... although the figure is contested.[1] The Catholic Church itself faced persecutionin Hitler's Germany, and institutional German Catholic resistance to Nazism centered largely on defending the Church's own rights and institutions. Broader resistance tended to be fragmented and led by individual effort in Germany, ... Those are powerful statements all on it's own and actually says a lot. Hitler didn't allow anyone else to do that, and there was a reason. A big reason might be not to annoy Mussolini, when was the Vatican Treaty implemented? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #109 Share Posted January 10, 2020 33 minutes ago, Golden Duck said: I don't think anyone at Neuremburg was charged with murder. Hubertus Strughold conducted human experimentation that lead to death. Well it depends on how you look at it. The actual crimes defined at Nuremberg were the following: 1) War Crimes 2) Crimes Against Humanity 3) Crimes against Peace Crimes listed under 1 & 2 above are directly attributed to Genocide, Mass and Individual murder of both Civilian and Captured Military personnel. The link you proved above was very interesting, but it's up in the air co cerning his involvement. The thing I find interesting is the fact that there are no records showing his involvement, and the Nazis were the best record keepers that ever existed. So I doubt we will ever know the truth about this situation. peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #110 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Golden Duck said: Your Wikipedia link also mentions the Red Cross. Bishop Hudal seems to be a bit of a rogue in the Church. https://books.google.com/books?id=egEhDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=Vatican+Relief+Commission+(Pontificia+Commissione+di+Assistenza,+or+PCA).++1945&source=bl&ots=OfGKyPw8wq&sig=ACfU3U1SMlk9zDE37n1exM1axowY5LAKNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif2Zf89uzmAhVTJzQIHXiwDGAQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Vatican Relief Commission (Pontificia Commissione di Assistenza%2C or PCA). 1945&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted January 10, 2020 #111 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said: https://books.google.com/books?id=egEhDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=Vatican+Relief+Commission+(Pontificia+Commissione+di+Assistenza,+or+PCA).++1945&source=bl&ots=OfGKyPw8wq&sig=ACfU3U1SMlk9zDE37n1exM1axowY5LAKNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif2Zf89uzmAhVTJzQIHXiwDGAQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Vatican Relief Commission (Pontificia Commissione di Assistenza%2C or PCA). 1945&f=false This extract doesn't mention Hudal. It just Pius XII is anti communist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted January 10, 2020 #112 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said: Well it depends on how you look at it. The actual crimes defined at Nuremberg were the following: 1) War Crimes 2) Crimes Against Humanity 3) Crimes against Peace Crimes listed under 1 & 2 above are directly attributed to Genocide, Mass and Individual murder of both Civilian and Captured Military personnel. The link you proved above was very interesting, but it's up in the air co cerning his involvement. The thing I find interesting is the fact that there are no records showing his involvement, and the Nazis were the best record keepers that ever existed. So I doubt we will ever know the truth about this situation. peace Speer was found guilty of both War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity. Earlier when you said he wasn't it seemed you were trying to make the point he wasn't a mass murderer. I'm not sure why said that now given that you were asserting that you're particular with facts in your conversation with Habitat. Edited January 10, 2020 by Golden Duck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #113 Share Posted January 10, 2020 6 hours ago, Golden Duck said: Speer was found guilty of both War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity. Earlier when you said he wasn't it seemed you were trying to make the point he wasn't a mass murderer. I'm not sure why said that now given that you were asserting that you're particular with facts in your conversation with Habitat. Well it is because he wasn't found guilty of murder only the use of forced and Slave labour. If he had been found guilty of murder he would have been killed and not given a 20 sentence. So yes according to the Neurnburg trial he wasn't a mass murder, so what's your point? Maybe you should research the subject completely before posting, thanks Speer was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, principally for the use of slave labor and forced labor. On October 1, 1946, he was sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment.[111] Three of the eight judges (two Soviet and American Francis Biddle) advocated the death penalty for Speer; the other judges did not, and a compromise sentence was reached after two days of discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #114 Share Posted January 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Golden Duck said: This extract doesn't mention Hudal. It just Pius XII is anti communist. I think you need to slow down and take a little time and read it again. He is certainly mentioned in fact the article mentions him on page 109. peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted January 10, 2020 #115 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said: Well it is because he wasn't found guilty of murder only the use of forced and Slave labour. If he had been found guilty of murder he would have been killed and not given a 20 sentence. So yes according to the Neurnburg trial he wasn't a mass murder, so what's your point? Maybe you should research the subject completely before posting, thanks Speer was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, principally for the use of slave labor and forced labor. On October 1, 1946, he was sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment.[111] Three of the eight judges (two Soviet and American Francis Biddle) advocated the death penalty for Speer; the other judges did not, and a compromise sentence was reached after two days of discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer Peace We just went over this. No one at Neuremberg was found guilty of murder. You said Speer was not found guilty of Crimes Against Humanity. He was. And you say Crimes against humanity is linked to murder. You said things that are factually incorrect. I haven't. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast Posted January 10, 2020 #116 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) On 1/5/2020 at 5:08 AM, Habitat said: You are just making yourself look silly, the US gave refuge to innumerable Nazi villains who were seen as assets in the Cold War. Name one of them who had to carry the same amount of guilt like the bast`**# accused in the Nuremberg court proceedings. Edited January 10, 2020 by toast 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted January 10, 2020 #117 Share Posted January 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said: I think you need to slow down and take a little time and read it again. He is certainly mentioned in fact the article mentions him on page 109. peace Don't know what happened there not all the pages are part of the preview. But yes I can see Hudal now. It still doesn't change the fact that Pius XIi is said to be anti communist. And that Montini and Hudal may have had different views from the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #118 Share Posted January 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, Golden Duck said: Don't know what happened there not all the pages are part of the preview. But yes I can see Hudal now. It still doesn't change the fact that Pius XIi is said to be anti communist. And that Montini and Hudal may have had different views from the Pope. Yes the issue with the Pope does go back and forth about his involvement, however, I think the release of all the documents in March will shed mire light on the issue. I am also examining some addition websites as I have time, I will post that information with links. If your interested go back and look at some if the other links I have posted, some information concerning the Pope is listed in some of them. Thanks for your post and Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #119 Share Posted January 10, 2020 40 minutes ago, Golden Duck said: We just went over this. No one at Neuremberg was found guilty of murder. You said Speer was not found guilty of Crimes Against Humanity. He was. And you say Crimes against humanity is linked to murder. You said things that are factually incorrect. I haven't. Peace. No actually you think that no one at Neuremburg was found guilty of murder. But you know that is a play on words, the only reason Speer wasn't hung was because he wasn't found guilty of murder. While he was tried for Crimes against Humanity, that is a broad title that's covers everything from murder to like in Speers cases using slave and forced labor, that was the extent of his crimes. The others that were hung were found guilty of either ensighting or committing MURDER, only those who weren't hung didn't have murder charges added to their list of crimes. Because anyone who did have murder as a charge went to the gallows or committed Suicide like Herman Goring. Your facts are based upon your opinion, have you posted anynlinks to prove my comments are incorrect, I can help you out here no you haven't, so far your only wrting comments that are opinions until proven factual. I will wait to see if you can back up your comments, dont get me wrong I hope you can since you have so much to say, about me not being factual. You see if I am proven wrong I will apologise, will you? I ave a strong feeling you won't, but I will give you the bennifit of doubt. peace 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted January 10, 2020 #120 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, toast said: Name one of them who had to carry the same amount of guilt like the bast`**# accused in the Nuremberg court proceedings. Assigning degrees of guilt is an inexact science, the demise of the Nazis was a good result for the world, and I think it fair to say that as far as the Western Allies were concerned, there was little to gain by delving too deeply into the misdeeds of those lower down the ranks. The main thing was the war was won. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerBright19 Posted January 10, 2020 #121 Share Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 7:26 PM, Manwon Lender said: when the Vatican releases all the Papal documents relating to WWII, it may be interesting. If the documents are released in their entirety it will be great, but I don't trust the Church to do that, What do Catholic Priests keep in their back room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 10, 2020 Author #122 Share Posted January 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said: What do Catholic Priests keep in their back room? I don't know maybe a blowup Sheep that says, Faaaaather Faaaaather!! peace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jujo-jo Posted January 10, 2020 #123 Share Posted January 10, 2020 15 hours ago, Golden Duck said: A big reason might be not to annoy Mussolini, when was the Vatican Treaty implemented? Per wiki... June 7, 1929 Lateran Treaty, also called Lateran Pact of 1929,treaty (effective June 7, 1929, to June 3, 1985) between Italy and the Vatican. It was signed by Benito Mussolini for the Italian government and by cardinal secretary of state Pietro Gasparri for the papacy and confirmed by the Italian constitution of 1948. On June 3, 1985, the Vatican and Italy ratified a new church-state treaty, known as a concordat, replacing the Lateran Treaty of 1929. The new accord affirmed the independence ofVatican City but ended a number of privileges that the Catholic Church had in Italy, including its status as the state religion. Religion: Roman Catholic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted January 10, 2020 #124 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said: Yes the issue with the Pope does go back and forth about his involvement, however, I think the release of all the documents in March will shed mire light on the issue. Funny. On page 1 you were insisting it did go all the way to the Pope. Maybe you should avoid posting unless you can back up your claims. You know, like you keep telling others in your delusions that you're a moderator. You're not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jujo-jo Posted January 10, 2020 #125 Share Posted January 10, 2020 22 hours ago, Aaron2016 said: It may turn out like this. Releasing documents to the public. Priceless! : ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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