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Manwon Lender

Catholic Church hid Nazi / SS War Criminals

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Habitat
Just now, Manwon Lender said:

. Please don't post information with out a link unless it's something that happened to you personally,second hand information does this thread no good.

You've lost the plot, that much is clear, what Nazi stuff did you witness, first hand ? None. You speak of your father and his war, I spoke of this fella and his war, the very same one. I'm cutting you adrift, no more of you for me.

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Manwon Lender
17 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You've lost the plot, that much is clear, what Nazi stuff did you witness, first hand ? None. You speak of your father and his war, I spoke of this fella and his war, the very same one. I'm cutting you adrift, no more of you for me.

Thank Buddha, your story from someone you no nothing about, in what universe compares to what a father tells and teaches his son. I was raised to hate everything the Nazi regime stood for, but I was also raised to believe the events history recorded did happen.

Thanks for proving my point!!

peace

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)

Below Is another and more detailed method in which the Catholic Church used Ratlines to help Nazi War Criminal escape to South America they called it the Nazi Bolt Hole.

The key escape route for former officers—the “Nazi bolt-hole”—was through South Tyrol and then through the Italian port of Genoa. In the recent, impressively researched History vs. Apologetics: The Holocaust, the Third Reich, and the Catholic Church (Lexington Books, 510 pages), David Cymet observes that the Archbishop of Genoa, Giuseppe Cardinal Siri (1906–1989), with the help of Hudal and a Croatian priest named Krunoslav Stjepan Draganovic, aided in establishing the escape hatch in his own diocese. Siri also established the transparently named “National Committee for Emigration to Argentina.” It was Argentina that would become the main haven for Axis criminals and operatives. At a time when Jews in DP camps were being denied visas, Juan Perón’s agents were combing Europe for Nazi collaborators to rescue.

The Catholic priests and prelates who helped spring the Nazi bolt-hole were part of an organization called the Vatican Relief Commission (Pontificia Commissione di Assistenza, or PCA). They supplied invaluable, indeed crucial aid in sheltering Nazi war criminals, SS men, and ordinary Nazis. Steinacher tells us that the PCA viewed itself as a sort of papal mercy program for National Socialists and Fascists. The most stunning, and well-supported, claim in Steinacher’s book is that enthusiasm for the general mission of the PCA went to the very top of the Vatican hierarchy. “Pope Pius XII supported this aid organization wholeheartedly. 

Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, proposed that it be called the “Pontifical Aid Commission.” The modest beginnings of the PCA, Sister Pascalina said in her memoirs, were ideal, as they corresponded with the pontiff’s heretofore unknown “inclination to do good in secret.” Helping him in his clandestine activities was Monsignor Montini, undersecretary in the Vatican’s Secretary of State Office (in other words, the number-two man in the Secretariat) and the future Pope Paul VI. Montini informs us that it was brought into existence to bring the pope’s Christian charity to those who needed it.

Tellingly, he adds that Pius XII wished to “ease the misery of his beloved German people,” though, crucially, “even if he liked Germans, it didn’t necessarily mean he was pro-Nazi.” And yet he reports that the pope favored an “extensive amnesty” for war criminals. For his part, Montini simply lacked sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust. He had, no interest in Christian-Jewish reconciliation. And “he even seemed to have expressed doubts about the extent of the genocide.”

Working closely with the Red Cross, the PCA would issue the crucial letters of recommendation for those seeking travel documents. The Red Cross, the organization that supplied the critical documents, was overwhelmed with the sheer number of POWs and the larger humanitarian emergency. As a result, it never screened those seeking travel documents. One needed only supply his name and a letter of recommendation to fall into the welcoming arms of President Perón and Argentina. But where to find such a letter? In most cases, some priest or bishop like Hudal would write one. The South Tyrol, then, was the all-important escape hatch for Nazi criminals, and it was Catholic priests and prelates who held the key to it.

 

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/how-the-catholic-church-sheltered-nazi-war-criminals/

Much more to follow

Peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Manwon Lender

Earlier in this thread forum member Habitat was unable to make the point that America was somehow involved in helping War Criminals because they could help gather intelligents. He couldn't post a single link showing this connection, wel I felt a sorry for him so I thought I should post something I found to help him prove his point.

In some cases, the United States was complicit in the exodus of Nazi war criminals to South America. Following the war, the U.S. Counter-Intelligence Corps recruited Klaus Barbie—the Gestapo chief in Lyon, France, who played a role in the deaths of thousands of French Jews and members of the French Resistance—as an agent to assist with anti-Communist efforts. He was smuggled to Bolivia, where he continued his spy work and instructed the military regime on how to torture and interrogate political opponents. “The Butcher of Lyon” was finally extradited in 1983 and sentenced to life in prison after his conviction for crimes against humanity. Barbie became one of the few Nazis who fled to South America but ultimately couldn’t escape justice, much like Eichmann who was also convicted of crimes against humanity by an Israeli court and executed in 1962.

So here you go Habitat this links for you:  

https://www.history.com/news/how-south-america-became-a-nazi-haven

peace

 

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Obviousman
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

Earlier in this thread forum member Habitat was unable to make the point that America was somehow involved in helping War Criminals because they could help gather intelligents. He couldn't post a single link showing this connection,

Anyone who has read about the intelligence services post-war (OSS / CIA / MI5 / MI6 / NKVD / KGB / GRU) knows that the allies used existing German spy rings. The US / UK had practically nothing in the way of HUMINT assets on the ground in Europe post-war. 

Edited by Obviousman
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Grey Area

Operation paper clip is very well known and documented, masses of Nazis, not merely given refuge but employed and well rewarded for their post war work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
 

The U.K. and the Soviet Union did the same.

I seem to recall the Catholic Church having a Nazi leaning at the outbreak of world war 2, this no doubt softened when the outcome became obvious.  I don’t doubt that some Nazis were supported by elements of the Catholic Church but this would be nothing in comparison to staggering numbers taken in by the victorious nations in the aftermath.

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jaylemurph
On 1/4/2020 at 7:24 PM, Manwon Lender said:

First let say there is nothing Libelous or dishonest in my statements I  am sorry if you are Catholic and offended by my accusations against the Vatican. But these are not accusations they are facts, there are many Catholic Clergyman involved in the Ratlines. Bishop Hudal only started the escape route through Italy and Croatia. As this thread progress more and more Church officials will come to light. In fact the line could possible lead to the Pope himself. 

As far as no corroboration, what I have listed is only the top of the iceberg. I suspect you are aware that these events occurred, if your not then sit back and you will learn. Because all the names I have posted concerning War Criminals did use the Ratline to escape to South America. The Catholic Clergy and European Red Cross members named were also involved.

Peace

You clearly don’t understand what constitutes “true” or “honest.” Those words mean you have facts to back you up. You don’t have those (or you would have produced them). Basically, all you have is a gossip-y, b****y opinion and a severe lack of intellectual rigor. 

...and I’m not even catholic. I just think people shouldn’t throw garbage around and mistake it for truth. 

—Jaylemurph 

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moonman
Posted (edited)

I don't really care one way or the other, but I find it safe to assume that the US would have kept Nazi scientists around and keep it confidential. 

Edited by moonman

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RabidMongoose
On 1/4/2020 at 5:52 PM, Manwon Lender said:

At the end of World War II Nazi War Criminals including the SS, Nazi Collaborators, and others running from Justice were hidden and provided with New Papers by the Vatican and the European Red Cross. The Catholic Church ran an Underground Railroad called The Ratline to transport and hide War Criminals running from Prosecution. Below is a list of notable Nazis who escaped from Europe using this method.

1) Adolf Eichmann - Architect of Hitler's Final Solution

2) Josef Megele - Known as the Angle of Death

3) Walter Rauff - SS Colonel who was instrumental in the building of Mobil gas chamber

4) Franz Stangl - Stangl was responsible for the Aktion euthanasia Program                   

These are just a few of the Major Nazi War Criminals that escaped to South America with Catholic help. I would like to discuss why the Catholic Church and especially the Vatican would facilitate War Criminals dripping with the Blood of their victims to escape Justice. I would also like to address and identify individual Arch Bishops and other Catholic Church members who assisted with these crimes.

i am posting some links that will bring to light some of this information.

https://www.history.com/news/the-7-most-notorious-nazis-who-escaped-to-south-america

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II_aftermath)

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~confido/genealogy/catholic.html

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/141486

Peace

What if Hitler lived out his days in Vatican City?

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Manwon Lender
On 1/6/2020 at 4:24 AM, Obviousman said:

Anyone who has read about the intelligence services post-war (OSS / CIA / MI5 / MI6 / NKVD / KGB / GRU) knows that the allies used existing German spy rings. The US / UK had practically nothing in the way of HUMINT assets on the ground in Europe post-war. 

You are certainly correct, they did. However for the US to use someone like Klaus Barbie as an asset who was known as the Butcher of Lyon is totally ridiculous. This guy was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews in France, At least he did get what he deserved and was finally executed by the Israelis.

peace

 

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Manwon Lender
23 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Operation paper clip is very well known and documented, masses of Nazis, not merely given refuge but employed and well rewarded for their post war work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
 

The U.K. and the Soviet Union did the same.

I seem to recall the Catholic Church having a Nazi leaning at the outbreak of world war 2, this no doubt softened when the outcome became obvious.  I don’t doubt that some Nazis were supported by elements of the Catholic Church but this would be nothing in comparison to staggering numbers taken in by the victorious nations in the aftermath.

The Catholic Church certainly had a Nazi leaning as you called it, it went all the way up to Pope. In fact while many Jews were given refuge, there were many more turned away and the Church has been criticised by Israel for doing what they did. But the big problem occurred after the war, they hid Nazi War Criminals in the Vatican dressed as Monks until they could be sent further down the Ratline. In fact they were personally responsible for hiding and transporting to South America the most Notorious Nazi War Criminals to escape Justice.

Peace

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

You clearly don’t understand what constitutes “true” or “honest.” Those words mean you have facts to back you up. You don’t have those (or you would have produced them). Basically, all you have is a gossip-y, b****y opinion and a severe lack of intellectual rigor. 

...and I’m not even catholic. I just think people shouldn’t throw garbage around and mistake it for truth. 

—Jaylemurph 

All I am going to simply say is prove me wrong, can you do that? If you can I will apologise openly on this forum. Just produce links that say the ones I have posted are not accurate.

Unlike you I am not going to start making accusations or name calling that is far to childish and while not in the past it is now beneath the person I choose to be to do so. So please put up or go away, because so far you have offered nothing pertinent to this thread except negative comments.

Peace.

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, moonman said:

I don't really care one way or the other, but I find it safe to assume that the US would have kept Nazi scientists around and keep it confidential. 

They certainly did Verner Von Bruan is one if them. He designed and built the V-1 and V-2 Rockets. He was captured by the US with other rocket scientists and taken back to rhe USA. Where he was responsible for all the rocket designs fir our space program. Without and others we would not have made it to the Moon.

But let me note these scientists were not directly responsible for the death of millions of people, they were scientists not mass murders.

peace

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

What if Hitler lived out his days in Vatican City?

He may have become Pope Pius Hitler, I really don't know, but I am pretty certain he died in April of 1945.

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jaylemurph
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

All I am going to simply say is prove me wrong, can you do that? If you can I will apologise openly on this forum. Just produce links that say the ones I have posted are not accurate.

Unlike you I am not going to start making accusations or name calling that is far to childish and while not in the past it is now beneath the person I choose to be to do so. So please put up or go away, because so far you have offered nothing pertinent to this thread except negative comments.

Peace.

I can no more prove this isn’t true than prove The Lord of the Rings isn’t true. You can’t prove negatives; that’s basic logic, besides being the mating call of the most pathetic of conspiridiots. Like them, you mistake “things I don’t like to hear” with “attacks.”

And what I offer this thread is a rational (some might suggest sane) alternative to merely throwing around unsubstantiated rumors that are tantamount to libel. It’s telling that above, you couldn’t even imagine someone calling you out who wasn’t himself catholic. Such is the paucity in the simpleton minds of people who resort to conspiracies to understand the past. 

—Jaylemurph 

Edited by jaylemurph
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Obviousman
32 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

They certainly did Verner Von Bruan is one if them. He designed and built the V-1 and V-2 Rockets. He was captured by the US with other rocket scientists and taken back to rhe USA. Where he was responsible for all the rocket designs fir our space program. Without and others we would not have made it to the Moon.

But let me note these scientists were not directly responsible for the death of millions of people, they were scientists not mass murders.

peace

Sorry but I have to make a couple of corrections....

  • Wernher von Braun, not Verner
  • von Braun had nothing to do with the V-1 (AKA the Fieseler 103), except that it was developed at Peenemunde
  • Technically, he surrendered to the Allies rather than was 'captured'
  • Although von Braun has significant impact on rocket design, he wasn't responsible for all the designs. For example, the Atlas (used in the Mercury programme) was developed as an ICBM by Convair. The Titan (used in Gemini) was also an ICBM developed by the Martin company

 

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Aaron2016

Accusations / allegations are just words on paper without verifiable evidence that can be heavily scrutinized by unbiased parties in a lawful procedure with a legal representative team to defend the accused against the accusations made against them.  Without this human right we only have statements that can't be verified, witnesses that can't be cross-examined, the list goes on....  In the end we are left with a series of accusations and a one-sided circus trial whose sole purpose is to punish the accused to make an example out of them, with no real desire for the actual truth.

 

i.e.  The mob mentality.  Trump is on the receiving end every day.

 

mob.png

 

 

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, Obviousman said:

Sorry but I have to make a couple of corrections....

  • Wernher von Braun, not Verner
  • von Braun had nothing to do with the V-1 (AKA the Fieseler 103), except that it was developed at Peenemunde
  • Technically, he surrendered to the Allies rather than was 'captured'
  • Although von Braun has significant impact on rocket design, he wasn't responsible for all the designs. For example, the Atlas (used in the Mercury programme) was developed as an ICBM by Convair. The Titan (used in Gemini) was also an ICBM developed by the Martin company

 

Thank you for the information, I appreciate the correction.

peace

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Aaron2016 said:

Accusations / allegations are just words on paper without verifiable evidence that can be heavily scrutinized by unbiased parties in a lawful procedure with a legal representative team to defend the accused against the accusations made against them.  Without this human right we only have statements that can't be verified, witnesses that can't be cross-examined, the list goes on....  In the end we are left with a series of accusations and a one-sided circus trial whose sole purpose is to punish the accused to make an example out of them, with no real desire for the actual truth.

 

i.e.  The mob mentality.  Trump is on the receiving end every day.

 

mob.png

 

 

Let me help you out here, contribute to the thread or go away. If can't post any verifiable information please don't post.

peace

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, Obviousman said:

Sorry but I have to make a couple of corrections....

  • Wernher von Braun, not Verner
  • von Braun had nothing to do with the V-1 (AKA the Fieseler 103), except that it was developed at Peenemunde
  • Technically, he surrendered to the Allies rather than was 'captured'
  • Although von Braun has significant impact on rocket design, he wasn't responsible for all the designs. For example, the Atlas (used in the Mercury programme) was developed as an ICBM by Convair. The Titan (used in Gemini) was also an ICBM developed by the Martin company

 

I am also sorry for misspelling Von Brauns first name, sometimes when writing I still think in German where Ws are pronounced as Vs.

peace

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Aaron2016
21 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Let me help you out here, contribute to the thread or go away. If can't post any verifiable information please don't post.

peace

You accused members of the clergy (some possibly living) and members of the Nazi regime as escaping Europe and "running from justice".  Exactly what kind of justice were they escaping from?  It certainly wasn't justice in the traditional sense.

Definition of Justice - The attainment of what is just, which is fair, moral, right, merited, with conformity to truth, fact, and in accordance with the procedures of law.  Treating everyone the same with decency and fairness in action and attitude.

A little bird tells me they were not "running from justice."  They were escaping retribution.

 

 

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aaron2016 said:

You accused members of the clergy (some possibly living) and members of the Nazi regime as escaping Europe and "running from justice".  Exactly what kind of justice were they escaping from?  It certainly wasn't justice in the traditional sense.

Definition of Justice - The attainment of what is just, which is fair, moral, right, merited, with conformity to truth, fact, and in accordance with the procedures of law.  Treating everyone the same with decency and fairness in action and attitude.

A little bird tells me they were not "running from justice."  They were escaping retribution.

 

 

I am going to ask you again please prove me wrong, can you do that? If not please do not post in thread again, unless you have something to add.

peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Aaron2016
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I am going to ask you again please prove me wrong, can you do that? If not please do not post in thread again, unless you have something to add.

peace

Are you trying to establish that the Catholic Church is guilty by their association with the Nazis and therefore must officially apologise and pay compensation?  Otherwise what is the purpose of proceeding with these allegations against them?

 

 

Edited by Aaron2016

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Habitat

Even the "sainted" Winston Churchill is guilty of wanting to turn a blind eye to Nazi excesses, at the very end of the European war, he wanted to assemble the remnants of the German forces to unite with the Brits in a mad scheme to expel the Russians from Poland. Only advice from his military chiefs that such a plan would be unsuccessful, and result in the loss of the army, plus notice from senior cabinet members that they would resign if he persisted, caused the plan to be still-born. Google "Operation Unthinkable".

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Obviousman

Related to this is the information that the Nazis (or others) discovered. An example is aircrew survival times.

The Nazis would take prisoners, put them in aircrew flying clothing, and dump them in ice to see how long they could survive before dying of (presumably) hypothermia. This gave them good data on how long downed aircrew could survive in what temperatures in what clothing.

After WWII, there was debate about using this data; after all, it had been a result of unethical 'slave' labor and lives. So should the Allies just abandon this data, possibly leading to future aircrew deaths? Or should they utilise this 'tainted' data?

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