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Manwon Lender

Catholic Church hid Nazi / SS War Criminals

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Even the "sainted" Winston Churchill is guilty of wanting to turn a blind eye to Nazi excesses, at the very end of the European war, he wanted to assemble the remnants of the German forces to unite with the Brits in a mad scheme to expel the Russians from Poland. Only advice from his military chiefs that such a plan would be unsuccessful, and result in the loss of the army, plus notice from senior cabinet members that they would resign if he persisted, caused the plan to be still-born. Google "Operation Unthinkable".

General Patton also wanted to do the same thing. except his aspirations were much larger, he wanted to kick the Communists out of Europe and all the way to the frontiers of Russia. For making this statement along with not removing Nazi officials from Government office and saying the Nazi party was no different from the Republicans or the Democrats he was relieved of his command by the President of the United States.

Thanks for the information I didn't know that about Churchill.

Peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Manwon Lender
45 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

Are you trying to establish that the Catholic Church is guilty by their association with the Nazis and therefore must officially apologise and pay compensation?  Otherwise what is the purpose of proceeding with these allegations against them?

 

 

No, the Church is guilty because it was knowingly and deliberately hiding War Criminals as monks and in other ways until they could be transported to South America. If you want to disprove this, do it, if you can't then it stands and it should stand because it is a fact that high ranking members of the Clergy at the Vatican and who were located in Croatia were directly and knowingly involved in these acts.

Peace.

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Obviousman
53 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

No, the Church is guilty because it was knowingly and deliberately hiding War Criminals as monks and in other ways until they could be transported to South America. If you want to disprove this, do it, if you can't then it stands and it should stand because it is a fact that high ranking members of the Clergy at the Vatican and who were located in Croatia were directly and knowingly involved in these acts.

Peace.

Errr - you can't prove a negative.

The onus is on you to support your claim, not for others to prove otherwise.

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Habitat

Given that it is a little bit late to be worrying about Nazi war criminals, this looks like an attempt to blame a particular organisation, when in reality there was not a great deal of official enthusiasm for punitive treatment of Germans, other than those at the top, and not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the Treaty of Versailles probably also a factor. if we get on the moral high horse, the view from up there looks different.

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Manwon Lender
8 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

Errr - you can't prove a negative.

The onus is on you to support your claim, not for others to prove otherwise.

Err - Yes I can challenge anyone who says that what I am promoting is not factual. Either they can add to this discussion with proof that my comments are incorrect or they have nothing to add except opinions which prove nothing. Just like in a court of law, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I could careless if I change anyone's opinion, that is not the purpose of this discussion.

The discussion is to identify the methods used by Senior Members of the Vatican who used the power of the Church and its arm  the Red Cross to move and hide the most wanted Nazi War ciminals so that they would escape the War Crimes Trails. They then either helped them find jobs in locations that they would not be discovered or they arranged transportation to South America for them. These are none facts, this information is published and proven, it not my responsibility to provide to anyone why I have chosen this topic, it's also not my responsibility to go beyond published information to prove that these events did occur.

If this bothers people who chose to not to believe this because of their reglious affiliations, that's their choice. But these are most likely the same people who would denie the Holocuast ever happened or that the Catholic Church has allowed pedophiles to not only escape Justice for who knows how many years, maybe hundreds,  but also after so called treatment allowed these people access to children again unsupervised where abuse occurred again, thiese are facts on accusations.

Denial is not a river in Egypt, it is refusing to admit that events occurred that you are ashamed of, offended by, or wish to not think about. But no mater these actions do niot change history, or reshape it in any way they only caused the individual to further delude themselves which certainly doesn't promote healing.

Peace

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Given that it is a little bit late to be worrying about Nazi war criminals, this looks like an attempt to blame a particular organisation, when in reality there was not a great deal of official enthusiasm for punitive treatment of Germans, other than those at the top, and not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the Treaty of Versailles probably also a factor. if we get on the moral high horse, the view from up there looks different.

First of all the Treaty of Versailles has nothing to with this and why you use that as an anology makes no sense. It's not a bit lateto worry about War Criminals they are still being hunted, captured and brought to justice. In 2018 former Nazi Guard Jakiw Palij was sent back to Germany to face trail for war crimes. So obviously they are still out there hiding, in plain site.

peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, Obviousman said:

Related to this is the information that the Nazis (or others) discovered. An example is aircrew survival times.

The Nazis would take prisoners, put them in aircrew flying clothing, and dump them in ice to see how long they could survive before dying of (presumably) hypothermia. This gave them good data on how long downed aircrew could survive in what temperatures in what clothing.

After WWII, there was debate about using this data; after all, it had been a result of unethical 'slave' labor and lives. So should the Allies just abandon this data, possibly leading to future aircrew deaths? Or should they utilise this 'tainted' data?

The question is should the Catholic Church hide and help the men who conducted these experiments escape Justice? Do you think what they did is ok?

peace

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I can no more prove this isn’t true than prove The Lord of the Rings isn’t true. You can’t prove negatives; that’s basic logic, besides being the mating call of the most pathetic of conspiridiots. Like them, you mistake “things I don’t like to hear” with “attacks.”

And what I offer this thread is a rational (some might suggest sane) alternative to merely throwing around unsubstantiated rumors that are tantamount to libel. It’s telling that above, you couldn’t even imagine someone calling you out who wasn’t himself catholic. Such is the paucity in the simpleton minds of people who resort to conspiracies to understand the past. 

—Jaylemurph 

For an academic who runs his own online library it's very surprising that you are so effected by denialism. I understand that it is your choice to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truths. However, denialism is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or events, when a you  refuse to except empirically verifiable data.

In the sciences, and among academics like yourself denialism is more than a simple rejection of basically known facts and concepts that are undisupted among other academics. I suspect that you are doing this because you have some form of instability, were breaks with reality are apparently are occurring Its obvious you are struggling with this problem I hope you get the help you require, I wish you no I'll will.

peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Manwon Lender
11 hours ago, Obviousman said:

Errr - you can't prove a negative.

The onus is on you to support your claim, not for others to prove otherwise.

Err - you also can't prove a positive:yes:

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Obviousman
5 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Err - you also can't prove a positive:yes:

It's been apparent throughout the thread but your grasp of logic is - at best - poor.

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

It's been apparent throughout the thread but your grasp of logic is - at best - poor.

Thank you, because what you call logical is at best one sided and only applies to your opinion, you supply no empirical data to support your opinion, so who is acting in a illogical manner? Honestly my grasp of logic may be poor, but how does this make you look in regards to logic.

peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Jujo-jo
On 1/6/2020 at 11:05 AM, moonman said:

I don't really care one way or the other, but I find it safe to assume that the US would have kept Nazi scientists around and keep it confidential. 

There was no secret about it. And he didnt care where he was at or who he was helping to get their he had his own agenda, in my opinion he didnt care about the war only the moon and getting there.

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Jujo-jo

I have to agree some here, the Catholic church did in fact hid nazi's, sad but true. And the red cross did find Hilter and helped, so did Ford. Sad but true the Pope himself was a, so called nazi because he was in the youth nazi group and was an active, proud member. How does one go from nazi to being the pope?

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skliss
On 1/7/2020 at 12:38 AM, Manwon Lender said:

The question is should the Catholic Church hide and help the men who conducted these experiments escape Justice? Do you think what they did is ok?

peace

Do you understand what was happening and why they did it? These former Nazi's were going to individual priests, claiming to repent, making full confessions and throwing themselves on the mercy of the church. As priests they are obligated to give absolution on earth....though God is the ultimate judge as to whether repentance is real in the heart and in the mind...and to do whatever they can to help these new reformed Christians/Catholics to achieve safety. Obviously we can look back from a perspective of time, distance and cynicism and know that they weren't sincere and were looking only for escape, but that is not for the priest to judge. If asked for life saving help they are bound to give it. 

As has already been pointed out it was a small amount and mostly those on the outer fringe of Nazism but a few hard core Nazis managed to lie their way into assistance.  Not sure why you're chewing this over in 2020 unless it's just another attack on the church.

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skliss
6 hours ago, Jujo-jo said:

I have to agree some here, the Catholic church did in fact hid nazi's, sad but true. And the red cross did find Hilter and helped, so did Ford. Sad but true the Pope himself was a, so called nazi because he was in the youth nazi group and was an active, proud member. How does one go from nazi to being the pope?

The pope you are talking about was conscripted into the Nazi youth at age 14, then drafted at 16, he managed to escape even though he knew that the SS was shooting deserters. He was caught by the Americans and sent to a POW camp and was released at the end of the war. His family, especially his father were rabid anti-nazi. He wasn't pope until 2005.

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Jujo-jo
Just now, skliss said:

The pope you are talking about was conscripted into the Nazi youth at age 14, then drafted at 16, he managed to escape even though he knew that the SS was shooting deserters. He was caught by the Americans and sent to a POW camp and was released at the end of the war. His family, especially his father were rabid anti-nazi. He wasn't pope until 2005.

So they say, yep that's the one! 

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skliss
1 minute ago, Jujo-jo said:

So they say, yep that's the one! 

Since there is paperwork...Nazis were extremely OCD about keeping records...I'm gonna go with the known facts.    :)

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Jujo-jo
On 1/7/2020 at 12:38 AM, Manwon Lender said:

The question is should the Catholic Church hide and help the men who conducted these experiments escape Justice? Do you think what they did is ok?

peace

It was wrong in my opinion and no it was not ok. 

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, skliss said:

Do you understand what was happening and why they did it? These former Nazi's were going to individual priests, claiming to repent, making full confessions and throwing themselves on the mercy of the church. As priests they are obligated to give absolution on earth....though God is the ultimate judge as to whether repentance is real in the heart and in the mind...and to do whatever they can to help these new reformed Christians/Catholics to achieve safety. Obviously we can look back from a perspective of time, distance and cynicism and know that they weren't sincere and were looking only for escape, but that is not for the priest to judge. If asked for life saving help they are bound to give it. 

As has already been pointed out it was a small amount and mostly those on the outer fringe of Nazism but a few hard core Nazis managed to lie their way into assistance.  Not sure why you're chewing this over in 2020 unless it's just another attack on the church.

Here is list of a few the  Nazi war criminals who were helped to escape to South America. These were the most wanted War Criminals in all of Europe and they escaped using the rat lines set up by the Catholic Church officials.

1) Adolf Eichmann - Architect of Hitler's Final Solution

2) Josef Megele - Known as the Angle of Death

3) Walter Rauff - SS Colonel who was instrumental in the building of Mobil gas chamber

4) Franz Stangl - Stangl was responsible for the Aktion euthanasia Program                   

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/how-the-catholic-church-sheltered-nazi-war-criminals/

The reason I am bring this up now is because the Vatican is going to release all the Vatican papers oncerming Pope Pius XII. And Bishop Alois Hudal who engineered the Rat lines for escaping High ranking War Criminals in March of this year. 

https://www.history.com/news/vatican-archives-pope-pius-xii-holocaust

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pope-pius-xii-and-the-holocaust#cries

This is not an attack on the Church,  it designed to bring the crimes to light, its no different than exposing the sexual predators hiding in Catholic Church's all ovetvthe country. The way you make it sound is the high ranking officials that were involved believed that these men deserved absolution   That is far from the truth. High ra raking members of the Church supported the Nazi cause for religious reasons and because of there own backgrounds.

Thanks for your post I appreciate your tone and your comments, however I can't agree with your view due to the evidence that suggests otherwise. I understand that people who embrace the Catholic faith will be offended by this but the Church has been hiding thiings like this for many years. Judt like the pedophiles these issues cant stay hidden forever.

Peace

 

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Jujo-jo
Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, skliss said:

Do you understand what was happening and why they did it? These former Nazi's were going to individual priests, claiming to repent, making full confessions and throwing themselves on the mercy of the church. As priests they are obligated to give absolution on earth....though God is the ultimate judge as to whether repentance is real in the heart and in the mind...and to do whatever they can to help these new reformed Christians/Catholics to achieve safety. Obviously we can look back from a perspective of time, distance and cynicism and know that they weren't sincere and were looking only for escape, but that is not for the priest to judge. If asked for life saving help they are bound to give it. 

As has already been pointed out it was a small amount and mostly those on the outer fringe of Nazism but a few hard core Nazis managed to lie their way into assistance.  Not sure why you're chewing this over in 2020 unless it's just another attack on the church.

Even though preist's hold oaths, that is not a good enough excuse to do what they did, even today if and when murders go to them and confess and ask for forgiveness, most priests says nothing.... in my opinion any one else would be held accountable for their actions and I think it's called aiding and abetting as well as an obstruction of Justice.

I see what you're saying but still feel it is wrong and it makes me wonder what other crimes they are hiding or what other things they know that they should share with authorities... like trying to keep sexual abuse hidden and out of the eye of the public and not turning in someone who's done it and who intends on contuing doing it. WRONG WRONG WRONG in my book! Also if they are willing to help and cover up the worst of the worst in the world then whats next on their list for theses times, days and ages? Why do they feels it's ok to do this in the first place?

Especially with all that's happening in the world today, if they knew where a bomb was located and knew it later would be detonated they would not tell anyone and not feel even feel 1/2 accountable.

I dont see it has him attacking the church at all, I see it as a pretty good topic actually and it upsets a large number of people so why not talk about it...

Edited by Jujo-jo

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Manwon Lender
35 minutes ago, Jujo-jo said:

It was wrong in my opinion and no it was not ok. 

Thanks for your support, but there is an element here who don't want to know the truth and they will use personal attacks or any other methods to stop it from being brought out. They did the same thing concerning the pedophiles that the Church has hidden for who knows how long. Forum member Skliss is not one of these people he is voicing an honest opinion, which is god to go in my opinion. 

Thanks for you support.

peace.

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Jujo-jo
46 minutes ago, skliss said:

Since there is paperwork...Nazis were extremely OCD about keeping records...I'm gonna go with the known facts.    :)

Yes it is all known facts, what I'm saying is he willingly joined and beside the fact he was drafted I dont think he minded one bit and of course they and he would "say" he didnt want to participate and that he was forced otherwise he wouldn't have made Pope at all but when he was up for that role all his nazi activity was keep very quiet, it was only AFTER he was Pope that they pumped up the media and the "I was force and drafted statements".

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Jujo-jo
55 minutes ago, skliss said:

Since there is paperwork...Nazis were extremely OCD about keeping records...I'm gonna go with the known facts.    :)

So you have a German boy join the youth group (who wouldn't have enjoyed it, they made it look pretty darn fun and at times was nothing but fun) then later was drafted. It would only make sense to support it especially at such a young age and when all of your buddies are there doing it to and doing something for your country at that age you bet most were for it.

Then you have the poor Norwegian men who had No choice at all but to become nazi's and fight, it was that or face death and lose your small country.

Drafted no choice / invaded no choice but the difference is, the invaded didnt join prior to.

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Jujo-jo
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, skliss said:

Do you understand what was happening and why they did it? These former Nazi's were going to individual priests, claiming to repent, making full confessions and throwing themselves on the mercy of the church. As priests they are obligated to give absolution on earth....though God is the ultimate judge as to whether repentance is real in the heart and in the mind...and to do whatever they can to help these new reformed Christians/Catholics to achieve safety. Obviously we can look back from a perspective of time, distance and cynicism and know that they weren't sincere and were looking only for escape, but that is not for the priest to judge. If asked for life saving help they are bound to give it. 

As has already been pointed out it was a small amount and mostly those on the outer fringe of Nazism but a few hard core Nazis managed to lie their way into assistance.  Not sure why you're chewing this over in 2020 unless it's just another attack on the church.

I also have to consider this they were killing the Jewish people in their country as well as their surrounding countries then even started to at at times, targetted Christians and those who helped the Jewish people but yet the Catholics were not one of their targets, why! I think it was because the Catholic churches were safe havens for them and there was more of an inside bond than we'd like to think. We cant deny the fact that "Roman's and then the Roman Catholics" were against the Jewish religion once, sometimes old habits die hard, just a thought.

Edited by Jujo-jo
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Grey Area
11 minutes ago, Jujo-jo said:

I also have to consider this they were killing the Jewish people in their country as well as their surrounding countries then even started to at at times, targetted Christians and those who helped the Jewish people but yet the Catholics were not one of their targets, why!

It was a period of World War, the Germans were attempting to kill pretty much everyone who opposed them, even Catholics.  However, the Catholic Church as an entity had officially declared neutrality.

14 minutes ago, Jujo-jo said:

I think it was because the Catholic churches were safe havens for them and there was more of an inside bond than we'd like to think. We cant deny the fact that "Roman's and then the Roman Catholics" were against the Jewish religion once, sometimes old habits die hard, just a thought.

At some point or another, across Europe I am sure the vast majority of desperate civilians, and probably a good measure of military personnel would have wandered into a church at some point hoping it would be a place of refuge.  Not sure most would have found much comfort there at the time.

The point I think most people are making is not that this sort of thing went on, and yes I am sure the Catholic church did help some Nazi's, it's that both you and Manwon Lender seem to see this as the be all and end all of atrocity, and yet we have much more compelling evidence, on a much larger scale of most of the so called civilised nations in the world doing exactly the same thing. 

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