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Manwon Lender

Catholic Church hid Nazi / SS War Criminals

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, Setton said:

Funny. On page 1 you were insisting it did go all the way to the Pope. 

Maybe you should avoid posting unless you can back up your claims. 

 

You know, like you keep telling others in your delusions that you're a moderator.

You're not. 

I am not a moderator, never claimed to be one, but this is my thread. Now posts like yours almost got it closed in the beginning so I had to promise Saru I would keep it civil and on track, if you don't believe me please contact Saru, or Do you think he's wrong for telling me to manage this thread? 

Oh and by the way if you bothered to read the links you would see that the Pope was involved, at least according to the Simon Weisenthal research center. I would post a link, but since you are just being sarcastic and don't really care you can look it up yourself. If you want to post to this thread please do, I welcome your comments, but please no more mud slinging like you have done in the post above. If you can't be civil, in the manner I am treating you your opinion isn't welcome.

Thanks for your post, and Peace.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Manwon Lender
5 hours ago, Habitat said:

Assigning degrees of guilt is an inexact science, the demise of the Nazis was a good result for the world, and I think it fair to say that as far as the Western Allies were concerned, there was little to gain by delving too deeply into the misdeeds of those lower down the ranks. The main thing was the war was won.

I think your right there were so many crimes committed that the trial would still be going on today if they procecuted everyone. So like you said unless someone was lower rank and notorious for acts of murder, most of the lower ranks were not prosecuted. I totally agree the main thing was that the war was won, however, even with that said mass murders were still hunted no matter their ranks which is only right. The Nazi Guard that Trump just allowed to be extradited to Germany to stand trial was a low ranking member of the SS, and this just happened so it is still going on to this day, after all these years.

Peace.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Manwon Lender

Hello everyone, I hope more people post their thoughts in this thread. But please keep it civil, if you must attack someone attack me, I don't mind. Any posts for or against the belief that the Catholic Church was involved in the hiding, transport, supplying documents, or that they turned a blind eye to the persecution and mass murder of the Jewish race are welcome. But please supply facts backed up with links to your information, while opinions are fine they don't prove your point or make your case, so your comments will be disregarded.

Thanks and peace.

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Katzenking

 

This is a controversial topic. The first thing that comes in mind is that the catholic church is huge, more than 1 billion members, so you will find all kind of people with different attitudes. This certainly was not different during the Nazi-aera. Some supported the Nazis and some opposed them. This applies to both clerics and ordinary church members.


Interesting could be the Dachau concentration camp were many clerics were imprisoned.
"Of a total of 2,720 clerics recorded as imprisoned at Dachau some 2,579 (or 94.88%) were Roman Catholics. Among the other denominations, there were 109 Protestants, 22 Greek Orthodox, 8 Old Catholics and Mariavites and 2 Muslims. Members of the Catholic Society of Jesus (Jesuits) were the largest group among the incarcerated clergy at Dachau."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp

In 1938, Cardinal Pacelli publicly restated the words of Pius XI on the incompatibility of Christianity and antisemitism: "It is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually we are all Semites."

In Summi Pontificatus, Pius XII reiterated Catholic opposition to racism and anti-Semitism in the following terms:
    In accordance with these principles of equality, the Church devotes her care to forming cultured native clergy and gradually increasing the number of native Bishops. And in order to give external expression to these, Our intentions, We have chosen the forthcoming Feast of Christ the King to raise to the Episcopal dignity at the Tomb of the Apostles twelve representatives of widely different peoples and races. In the midst of the disruptive contrasts which divide the human family, may this solemn act proclaim to all Our sons, scattered over the world, that the spirit, the teaching and the work of the Church can never be other than that which the Apostle of the Gentiles preached: "putting on the new, (man) him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all and in all" (Colossians iii. 10, 11).
    Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust

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Manwon Lender
10 hours ago, Katzenking said:

 

This is a controversial topic. The first thing that comes in mind is that the catholic church is huge, more than 1 billion members, so you will find all kind of people with different attitudes. This certainly was not different during the Nazi-aera. Some supported the Nazis and some opposed them. This applies to both clerics and ordinary church members.


Interesting could be the Dachau concentration camp were many clerics were imprisoned.
"Of a total of 2,720 clerics recorded as imprisoned at Dachau some 2,579 (or 94.88%) were Roman Catholics. Among the other denominations, there were 109 Protestants, 22 Greek Orthodox, 8 Old Catholics and Mariavites and 2 Muslims. Members of the Catholic Society of Jesus (Jesuits) were the largest group among the incarcerated clergy at Dachau."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp

In 1938, Cardinal Pacelli publicly restated the words of Pius XI on the incompatibility of Christianity and antisemitism: "It is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually we are all Semites."

In Summi Pontificatus, Pius XII reiterated Catholic opposition to racism and anti-Semitism in the following terms:
    In accordance with these principles of equality, the Church devotes her care to forming cultured native clergy and gradually increasing the number of native Bishops. And in order to give external expression to these, Our intentions, We have chosen the forthcoming Feast of Christ the King to raise to the Episcopal dignity at the Tomb of the Apostles twelve representatives of widely different peoples and races. In the midst of the disruptive contrasts which divide the human family, may this solemn act proclaim to all Our sons, scattered over the world, that the spirit, the teaching and the work of the Church can never be other than that which the Apostle of the Gentiles preached: "putting on the new, (man) him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all and in all" (Colossians iii. 10, 11).
    Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust



Officials at the Simon Wiesenthal Center were dismayed to hear that Pope Benedict XVI, in his soon-to-be published book, praised the efforts of Pope Pius XII to save Jews during the Holocaust. 

The Vatican has put Pius XII is on the path to sainthood, a direction that has upset the Jewish community, including the Center, worldwide.

“We do not agree with the Pope’s assessment of Pius XII’s role during the Nazi period—no one was more informed about was taking place. At no time during the critical years from 1939-1943 did he play any significant role in attempting to rescue Europe’s Jews. On the contrary, he was totally silent,” said Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Wiesenthal Center.

“Had he signed rather than hidden the encyclical condemning anti-Semitism that his predecessor, Pius XI, wrote, the course of the Holocaust may have been altered. Instead, it remained hidden, never coming to the attention of the world until 1974,” he added. 

“Normally it is not the business of the Jews who the Catholic Church designates a saint, but Pius XII is the exception. If he attains sainthood, then our children and grandchildren would be taught in our schools that when the greatest crime in the history of mankind was taking place and six million Jews were murdered, a saint was sitting on the throne of St. Peter,” Rabbi Hier concluded. 

http://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-center-dismayed-by.html

Peace
 

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Manwon Lender
12 hours ago, Katzenking said:

 

This is a controversial topic. The first thing that comes in mind is that the catholic church is huge, more than 1 billion members, so you will find all kind of people with different attitudes. This certainly was not different during the Nazi-aera. Some supported the Nazis and some opposed them. This applies to both clerics and ordinary church members.


Interesting could be the Dachau concentration camp were many clerics were imprisoned.
"Of a total of 2,720 clerics recorded as imprisoned at Dachau some 2,579 (or 94.88%) were Roman Catholics. Among the other denominations, there were 109 Protestants, 22 Greek Orthodox, 8 Old Catholics and Mariavites and 2 Muslims. Members of the Catholic Society of Jesus (Jesuits) were the largest group among the incarcerated clergy at Dachau."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp

In 1938, Cardinal Pacelli publicly restated the words of Pius XI on the incompatibility of Christianity and antisemitism: "It is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually we are all Semites."

In Summi Pontificatus, Pius XII reiterated Catholic opposition to racism and anti-Semitism in the following terms:
    In accordance with these principles of equality, the Church devotes her care to forming cultured native clergy and gradually increasing the number of native Bishops. And in order to give external expression to these, Our intentions, We have chosen the forthcoming Feast of Christ the King to raise to the Episcopal dignity at the Tomb of the Apostles twelve representatives of widely different peoples and races. In the midst of the disruptive contrasts which divide the human family, may this solemn act proclaim to all Our sons, scattered over the world, that the spirit, the teaching and the work of the Church can never be other than that which the Apostle of the Gentiles preached: "putting on the new, (man) him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all and in all" (Colossians iii. 10, 11).
    Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust

Here is really a sad story, Britain's Bishop Richard Williamson, denies that the Holocuast ever happened and this was in 2009.

 

As the world joins together tomorrow to commemorate International Holocaust Remembrance Day, Pope Benedict XVI has welcomed a Catholic Bishop and denier of the Nazi Holocaust back into the Church.

*snip*

Britain's Bishop Richard Williamson, who is reportedly being investigated for Holocaust denial in Germany, denied the murder of 6 million Jews by stating in an interview on Swedish state television last week, "I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews died in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."The Pope must make clear to the world that at a time when anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial have reached the highest levels in two decades and protesters at anti-Israel rallies are chanting, "Jews back to the ovens", his decision to welcome a Holocaust denier back into the Church will only validate Holocaust denial and contradicts the teachings of Vatican II. Bishops who preach anti-Semitism or Holocaust denial should not be embraced by the Vatican.

Bishop Williamson is one of four Catholic Bishops belonging to the notoriously anti-Semitic 'Society of Saint Pius', a breakaway group which opposes changes in Catholic doctrine. According to news reports, Williamson hasendorsed "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a notorious anti-Semitic forgery, and claimed that Jews are bent on world domination.

Just last week, Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication of Williamson and three other Bishops belonging to this group.

peace

 

Edited by rashore
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Manwon Lender

Below are part of Steinachers book, that describe the Catholic Church involvement and the escape route used.

Steinacher’s painstaking reconstruction of the main escape route (which led from Innsbruck across the Alps to Genoa or Rome) underlines the heavy involvement of the Catholic clergy. Along the way, numerous monasteries provided shelter for men on the run and 90 per cent of the Nazis that escaped used that route before they embarked on a passage to South America.

Argentina, in particular, became the preferred destination for Nazi refugees. According to Steinacher’s estimate, at least 350 high-ranking Nazis escaped to Argentina. The Argentinean dictator Juan Perón even hoped to attract up to half a million Germans after the war, notably military experts. New immigrants primarily had to fulfil two qualifications: they had to be skilled labourers or academically trained experts; and they were not allowed to be Communists. Ex-SS officers usually fulfilled both criteria. A Nazi past was not a requirement for an immigration visa to Argentina, but it was certainly no obstacle either.

Steinacher’s book focuses on Argentina, but it also offers intriguing new perspectives on other “safe havens” in Latin America, Africa and the Middle East. The post-war journey of former SS colonel Walter Rauff, who invented the mobile gas vans used to kill thousands of Jews along the Eastern front, exemplifies the transnational dimension of Nazi escape routes: after the war, he was first hidden by Bishop Siri of Genoa, before fleeing to Damascus in 1947. In late 1949, he used Red Cross documentation to move to Ecuador, where he worked for Bayer pharmaceutical company. In the early 1960s, Rauff retired to Santiago de Chile, where he died peacefully in 1984.

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Katzenking
On 1/11/2020 at 4:11 PM, Manwon Lender said:

 


Just last week, Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication of Williamson and three other Bishops belonging to this group.

peace

 

Georg Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) is not Pope anymore. He retired years ago.

Through the centuries there is a lot of hypocrisy among the catholic church but also among all other christian directions.
There are a lot of facts that speak for or against the catholic church during WW2 (ratline and other things you already mentioned).

I think that it is not possible to be a christian and anti-semitic at the same time. After all Jesus Christ was jewish too.

 

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Manwon Lender
43 minutes ago, Katzenking said:

Georg Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) is not Pope anymore. He retired years ago.

Through the centuries there is a lot of hypocrisy among the catholic church but also among all other christian directions.
There are a lot of facts that speak for or against the catholic church during WW2 (ratline and other things you already mentioned).

I think that it is not possible to be a christian and anti-semitic at the same time. After all Jesus Christ was jewish too.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Katzenking said:

Georg Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) is not Pope anymore. He retired years ago.

Through the centuries there is a lot of hypocrisy among the catholic church but also among all other christian directions.
There are a lot of facts that speak for or against the catholic church during WW2 (ratline and other things you already mentioned).

I think that it is not possible to be a christian and anti-semitic at the same time. After all Jesus Christ was jewish too.

 

Sorry to disagree with you but being a Chrustian and anti-Semitic is a very real thing. Many high ranking Christians including some Popes blame the Jews for Christs crucifixion and so they hate the Jews. This has been an on going problem for around a thousand years or more, I mean not all Christians think this way but some certainly still do today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Christianity

peace

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Abaddonire
3 hours ago, Katzenking said:

Georg Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) is not Pope anymore. He retired years ago.

Through the centuries there is a lot of hypocrisy among the catholic church but also among all other christian directions.
There are a lot of facts that speak for or against the catholic church during WW2 (ratline and other things you already mentioned).

I think that it is not possible to be a christian and anti-semitic at the same time. After all Jesus Christ was jewish too.

 

Ratzinger himself seems to disagree given his current spat with Franky-baby.

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Katzenking
10 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

Sorry to disagree with you but being a Chrustian and anti-Semitic is a very real thing. Many high ranking Christians including some Popes blame the Jews for Christs crucifixion and so they hate the Jews. This has been an on going problem for around a thousand years or more, I mean not all Christians think this way but some certainly still do today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Christianity

peace

I know all this and it is just a shame. Actually it were the Romans who ordered the torture and death sentence, spurred on by some jewish religious leaders (pharisees). So from that point of view to blame the entire jewish community is a stupid idea and a poor excuse for anti-semitism.

To make it absolutely clear:
In my view it is not possible to be a christian and anti-semitic at the same time. Pope or not is not relevant.
And many high ranking Christians including some Popes certainly agree.

PS.: The civil name of Pope Benedikt xvi is actually Josef Ratzinger. Georg is his brother (priest and church-musician), he was chorus master of the Cathedral Choir in Regensburg. There are allegations of sexual and physical abuse under his directorship.

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aztek

every one knows hugo schmeisser, every one knows mikhail kalashnikov. very few know that hugo worked at izhevsk plant after ww2, and even less know that he joined kalashnikov's team, and that ak 46 before hugo, is very different from ak47 that came out with hugo working side by side with kalashnikov. it would not be the same if hugo did not join.   i've seen ak46 in st. petersburg artillery museum,  very different gun,  different lock mechanism, different receiver , different gas system, a lot like sks, but nothing like ak47. 

 

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Golden Duck
On 1/11/2020 at 5:53 AM, Manwon Lender said:

No actually you think that no one at Neuremburg was found guilty of murder. But you know that is a play on words, the only reason Speer wasn't hung was because he wasn't found guilty of murder. While he was tried for Crimes against Humanity, that is a broad title that's covers everything from murder to like in Speers cases using slave and forced labor, that was the extent of his crimes. The others that were hung were found guilty of either ensighting or committing MURDER, only those who weren't hung didn't have murder charges added to their list of crimes. Because anyone who did have murder as a charge went to the gallows or committed Suicide like Herman Goring.

Your facts are based upon your opinion, have you posted anynlinks to prove my comments are incorrect, I can help you out here no you haven't, so far your only wrting comments that are opinions until proven factual. I will wait to see if you can back up your comments, dont get me wrong I hope you can since you have so much to say, about me not being factual. You see if I am proven wrong I will apologise, will you?

I ave a strong feeling you won't, but I will give you the bennifit of doubt.

peace

Here's a link where you say:

On 1/5/2020 at 2:54 PM, Manwon Lender said:

First Albert Speer was not found guilty of Crimes against Humanity,

Later you say:

On 1/11/2020 at 1:19 AM, Manwon Lender said:

...

Speer was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer

From the Wikipedia link already provided you can read that Speer narrowly avoided the a death sentence, in some part, sue to his false statement that he knew nothing of the death camps.  He confirms he did know in his letters to Helene Jeanty.

There was an allusion to Speer's cooperation with the Allies earlier in the thread.  The Smithsonian proposes:

Quote

... There was no question that Speer’s contrition in court, and perhaps his cooperation with Nitze, saved his life.

...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-candor-and-lies-of-nazi-officer-albert-speer-324737/

It's curious that Bormann was tried in absentia - while the four you highlighted weren't.

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Manwon Lender
7 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Here's a link where you say:

Later you say:

From the Wikipedia link already provided you can read that Speer narrowly avoided the a death sentence, in some part, sue to his false statement that he knew nothing of the death camps.  He confirms he did know in his letters to Helene Jeanty.

There was an allusion to Speer's cooperation with the Allies earlier in the thread.  The Smithsonian proposes:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-candor-and-lies-of-nazi-officer-albert-speer-324737/

It's curious that Bormann was tried in absentia - while the four you highlighted weren't.

What's your point, Speer wasn't given a death sentence because they couldn't prove he was involved the Final solution. Like I said he didn't receive the death penalty because he wasn't  chargeed for muder. The title Crimes against humanity is very broad, it covers many things including murder. But Speer was only charged under that crime for using forced and slave labor, not  for murder. 

While Borman was tried in absentia why they didn't charge the others I have no idea. They were by far much worst than him, it doesn't make sense.

peace

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Abaddonire
On 1/10/2020 at 2:37 AM, Manwon Lender said:

Thanks for your post, have you read some of the other posts in this thread? People are literally attacking me and trying to make me stop this thread, hell they have even gone the moderators to try and get this thread shut down.:D They all claim they are not Catholics, they claim that I am trying to attack the church for no other reason accept that I hate the Church. I don't hate the Church, I don't even hate the people who committed these crimes. I just think that enough is enough and the crimes should be exposed, these crimes along with the Pedophilic Preists have been denied and hidenfar too long. In March of this year, the Vatican is going to release all the Vatican files from the 1930s until the late 1940s which will cover all of World War 2. 

These files will include personal files and other papers that show where Pope Pius XII stood on the Nazi Catholics, on Jews, and his thoughts on helping the most notorious War Criminals escape Justice during WWII. If you would please look in on this thread once in a while and add to it, I would really appreciate it. To date I only have one other person who is willing to help me with these attacks and add to the thread. I am a pretty strong fellow, whether anyone helps or not I am not going to let this go it's just not my nature to do so and it's against my integrity to do so. 

Thanks for your post and any future information you can add.

Peace

Ah. You must understand that I was raised RCC, so I know the baloney. My parents are long deceased. Nevertheless, my mother, while being a devout catolic, had no problem making space for other beliefs. My father would not have had such space, but flat out refused to impose his beliefs on any other. One cannot but admire such adherence to principle. As a growing child, my folks allowed that I might well have different criteria. 

Regardless of how devout they were, they acknowledged that my path was mine alone to forge as I wished. I can only try to make the same impartial attempt with my own. 

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Manwon Lender
7 minutes ago, Abaddonire said:

Ah. You must understand that I was raised RCC, so I know the baloney. My parents are long deceased. Nevertheless, my mother, while being a devout catolic, had no problem making space for other beliefs. My father would not have had such space, but flat out refused to impose his beliefs on any other. One cannot but admire such adherence to principle. As a growing child, my folks allowed that I might well have different criteria. 

Regardless of how devout they were, they acknowledged that my path was mine alone to forge as I wished. I can only try to make the same impartial attempt with my own. 

I was also raised as a Catholic, but I don't have any use for Catholic beliefs either. But at the same time I am not going to down anyone for their beliefs either. Its great that they allowed you to follow your own path, until Inreached my teens I never had that choice. 

Thanks for your post

peace

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Abaddonire
Just now, Manwon Lender said:

I was also raised as a Catholic, but I don't have any use for Catholic beliefs either. But at the same time I am not going to down anyone for their beliefs either. Its great that they allowed you to follow your own path, until Inreached my teens I never had that choice. 

Thanks for your post

peace

OK, then you must also be aware that there is a subset of RCC that are entirely happy to chuck out their children on the street for no reason other than that those children do not share that belief.

 

Hell, that is not a hypothetical. I volunteer on help and support lines for those very kids in my spare time. I know rigorous RCC adherents have no compunction about rendering their own children bereft and homeless..

 

I am, perforce, restricted in what I may say, but realise that we frontline folks have a backroom team of counsellors for the counsellors. That might seem overkill, but some of the horror would break anyone. 

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Obviousman
On 1/10/2020 at 1:37 PM, Manwon Lender said:

People are literally attacking me and trying to make me stop this thread, hell they have even gone the moderators to try and get this thread shut down.:D They all claim they are not Catholics, they claim that I am trying to attack the church for no other reason accept that I hate the Church.

Just for the record:

1. If you term people disagreeing with you as 'attacks' then you should reconsider posting. Heat, kitchen, etc.

2. I'm disagreeing with you on some points. Sometimes a minor correction, sometimes pointing out major flaws, sometimes just plain disagreeing.

3. I'm staunchly atheist and have never had any 'religious' upbringing.

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Manwon Lender
5 minutes ago, Abaddonire said:

OK, then you must also be aware that there is a subset of RCC that are entirely happy to chuck out their children on the street for no reason other than that those children do not share that belief.

 

Hell, that is not a hypothetical. I volunteer on help and support lines for those very kids in my spare time. I know rigorous RCC adherents have no compunction about rendering their own children bereft and homeless..

 

I am, perforce, restricted in what I may say, but realise that we frontline folks have a backroom team of counsellors for the counsellors. That might seem overkill, but some of the horror would break anyone. 

 

None of what your saying seems like overkill to me, this only echoes the problems that are still on going within the Catholic Church. While they certainly are the biggest Christian organization on this planet, Unless they do something quickly they are going to go through major changes due to their Archaic and obsolete views, due to the way they hide anything that is negative concerning the Church.

I beleive the only way this Church can regain its credibility is by honestly admitting its past errors and then takeing steps to really prevent them from ever occurring again. But they must do it all in a transparent manner, so everyone can see the changes as they occur. However I don't expect them to ever do this, I just don't have any faith in the Churches leadership, but we can still hope that things will change.

You know, I can actually see this Church becoming the launch pad for the Biblical teaching of the end days and the second coming of Christ. With all the evil that goes on behind closed doors, I would expect the person ( Antichrist ) to walk out of the Church and proclaim himself god. In fact I suspect that the Antichrist could be a future Pope, I mean what place according to the Bible would be better for this figure to appear than as the Head of the Catholic Church.

Now while I not a believer in Christian teachings because I have chosen to follow Buddhist teachings, I still understand the Christian beliefs because I was raised on them. However, I can not beleive them because these Religous beliefs have never touched my, like Buddhism has.

peace

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Manwon Lender
6 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

Just for the record:

1. If you term people disagreeing with you as 'attacks' then you should reconsider posting. Heat, kitchen, etc.

2. I'm disagreeing with you on some points. Sometimes a minor correction, sometimes pointing out major flaws, sometimes just plain disagreeing.

3. I'm staunchly atheist and have never had any 'religious' upbringing.

Have you read the all the posts in this thread? I certainly do not equate disagreements as an attack. For me to call something an attack it is based upon the Tone, Content, and the language used in a post in to my comments.

Until you have gone back an looked at the posts to me concerning this thread, or until you actually add something useful I don't see our exchange going much further. Just to be clear, I don't see your comments as an attack just nothing to do with the content of this thread. 

Peace

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Alchopwn
On 1/14/2020 at 2:39 AM, Katzenking said:

I think that it is not possible to be a christian and anti-semitic at the same time. After all Jesus Christ was jewish too.

C'mon, you know the old Catholic line about "The Jews killed Jesus".  We all know that technically it was the Romans who killed Jesus, but the Church of Rome doesn't like having that pointed out.  In any case, historically speaking, hating Jews is a very Christian passtime, and another fine reason not to be a Christian.

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Piney
2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

C'mon, you know the old Catholic line about "The Jews killed Jesus".  We all know that technically it was the Romans who killed Jesus, but the Church of Rome doesn't like having that pointed out.  In any case, historically speaking, hating Jews is a very Christian passtime, and another fine reason not to be a Christian.

Then you have American Christian apologists who know more about the Old Testament than the Rabbinical Scholars themselves and don't realize how bias that actually is. 

Some of them, like John Oakes actually makes up lies about Jewish Theology not realizing how wrong that is. 

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Katzenking
4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

C'mon, you know the old Catholic line about "The Jews killed Jesus".  We all know that technically it was the Romans who killed Jesus, but the Church of Rome doesn't like having that pointed out.  In any case, historically speaking, hating Jews is a very Christian passtime, and another fine reason not to be a Christian.

That's right, keeping distance from all kinds of Churches/Religions is always a good advice.

Long ago I had a good friend who was jewish (and secretly loved his sister). A really nice family, they left for Israel in the 1980s. Since then I never met any Jews in real life.
Anyway I always kept a positive attitude towards Jews and Israel.

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Alchopwn

Back to the topic of Catholic Clergy and the Catholic Church hiding Nazis, I thought this was pretty unequivocal and common knowledge?  I mean, the Church was very pro-Fascist after Mussolini reached an accommodation with the Pope about giving him sovereignty over the Vatican State (all 110 acres of it).  This was after Garibaldi captured Rome and the Pope was unwilling to recognize a united Italy for decades.  This was also in the face of the perceived threat from Communism, which was a declared enemy of all religion.  This carried on into the Pope supporting Franco during the Spanish Civil war, and there is zero doubt that the Church also helped spread fascism in South America.  It should also be pointed out that Hitler was a baptized Catholic.  While the Church was officially neutral during WW2, the fact is, it had a vested interest in stopping Communism's spread, and that meant it leaned pro-Fascist.  This is a pretty unequivocal fact, and should be a surprise to nobody.  The real question is... To what extent did this translate into covert support from the Vatican for th Ratlines?  Well, multiple authors claim they have found the smoking gun that implicates the Vatican directly.  Is it really such a leap, given the history of Catholicism with Fascism?  Ideologically, Fascism was seen as a return to a more feudal approach to society by the Church, and that was when Catholicism was at its height... the feudal period.  Is it any wonder that this was something they saw as desirable?  I'm just glad they failed, because bucolic feudal idiocy is not something I relish.

Edited by Alchopwn
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aztek

oh please argentina still has huge gated communities of nazis who fled there after www2, well not many left today, but some still live there like nothing happened

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