Does Consciousness Exist Outside Of The Brain

[preacherman76]

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I'd suggest that the individual is where the phenomenon is sourced, not the dead. Are claimants ever psych tested in any way?

Regardless, my real objection to the thread title is the suggestion that the idea is somehow scientifically based. That's very misleading.

I guess I can agree with that. It really isn’t scientifically based. Though I’d also say that the study of NDE’s, isn’t necessarily a complete waste of time either. 

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

People are not afraid while unconscious.

The people who post about their nightmares on the dream board presumably disagree.

1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

Many of these cases happen while there is no measurable brain function.

All of the first-person reports are made when there is obvious brain function, made while working from memory, concerning events that are referred to an unverifiable time in the past.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

39 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Lazarus Syndrome has nothing to do with ressurection, despite its name. Whilst it's still not fully understood (given that it's happened to just a small handful of people worldwide) there nevertheless are a number of possible medical explanations for it. If anything, it raises concerns about determining when final death has actually occurred, because in all instances of Lazarus Syndrome, it clearly had not.

"If anything, it raises concerns about determining when final death has actually occurred, because in all instances of Lazarus Syndrome, it clearly had not."

If it has nothing to do with resurrection, then one should not call this experience "Lazarus Syndrome," at least the way I define it. Lazarus was resurrected from dead with body already decaying, slimy, smelly, and dead for hours. Just like you said, "Whilst it's still not fully understood..."; well, one has to experience resurrection (the correct sense of the word) for oneself. It is up to you to find that out, as in personal experience, not just Google/Wiki knowledge, and not someone telling you about its reality.

First-hand knowledge, not bookworm factoids.

[preacherman76]

53 minutes ago, eight bits said:

The people who post about their nightmares on the dream board presumably disagree.

LOL I knew you were going there. And hey, maybe you are right. I certainly don't claim to know anything for a fact here. Or at least very little is known fact. I've spent a considerable amount of time researching NDE's though. In order to get a decent grasp of the subject you gotta look at both individual cases, as well as the big picture. I'll explain more under the next quoted part.

53 minutes ago, eight bits said:

All of the first-person reports are made when there is obvious brain function, made while working from memory, concerning events that are referred to an unverifiable time in the past.

In many cases this is true. In others though it can at least appear more complicated than that. One of the reasons a small handful of doctors became fascinated with this subject is because many patients say things to them that do seem to verify a seemingly impossible time line, with accurate accounts of events that took place around them. Often they describe procedures the doctors were performing. Conversations that were taking place, seeing and hearing all this from above where their body lays. While having at the time, no measurable brain function. I've also seen cases  where the patient had left the room in a out of body state, and knew of conversations that took place out in the hall, or in another room all together. With those cases, it isn't so much that the patients testimony is the focus, but the confirmation of said account by others who were there.

[preacherman76]

48 minutes ago, Marcion Meets E. Sibyl said:

"If anything, it raises concerns about determining when final death has actually occurred, because in all instances of Lazarus Syndrome, it clearly had not."

If it has nothing to do with resurrection, then one should not call this experience "Lazarus Syndrome," at least the way I define it. Lazarus was resurrected from dead with body already decaying, slimy, smelly, and dead for hours. Just like you said, "Whilst it's still not fully understood..."; well, one has to experience resurrection (the correct sense of the word) for oneself. It is up to you to find that out, as in personal experience, not just Google/Wiki knowledge, and not someone telling you about its reality.

First-hand knowledge, not bookworm factoids.

Could you point me to a thread where you have told this story? I'm curious to read about it. Thanks ahead of time.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 minute ago, Marcion Meets E. Sibyl said:

If it has nothing to do with resurrection, then one should not call this experience "Lazarus Syndrome," at least the way I define it. Lazarus was resurrected from dead with body already decaying, slimy, smelly, and dead for hours. Just like you said, "Whilst it's still not fully understood..."; well, one has to experience resurrection (the correct sense of the word) for oneself. It is up to you to find that out, as in personal experience, not just Google/Wiki knowledge, and not someone telling you about its reality.

First-hand knowledge, not bookworm factoids.

It's called Lazarus Syndrome because death was certified prematurely, not because final death had occurred and the person was somehow miraculously resurrected.

In other words, you were not resurrected.

The following article explains the phenomenon:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/lazarus-phenomenon-explained-why-sometimes-deceased-are-not-dead-yet-180958613/

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

11 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Could you point me to a thread where you have told this story? I'm curious to read about it. Thanks ahead of time.

Not sure how to access my many past posts, especially since I have changed my avatar's name a number of times.
The gist of my previous posts regarding resurrection is very much the same: VERY painful resurrection because of reviving nerves/muscles, decaying body, dead for many hours, slimy and smelly flesh. And, there is that extra otherworldly aspect to being brought back from the other-side w/ a powerful Being in the mix.

Peace!

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

1 minute ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

It's called Lazarus Syndrome because death was certified prematurely, not because final death had occurred and the person was somehow miraculously resurrected.

In other words, you were not resurrected.

The following article explains the phenomenon:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/lazarus-phenomenon-explained-why-sometimes-deceased-are-not-dead-yet-180958613/

Like I said, the way I define it. What do you know about resurrection? Absolutely nothing.

[onlookerofmayhem]

21 minutes ago, Marcion Meets E. Sibyl said:

Lazarus was resurrected from dead with body already decaying, slimy, smelly, and dead for hours.

Lazarus was supposedly dead and buried for four days before Jesus resurrected him. 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 minute ago, Marcion Meets E. Sibyl said:

Like I said, the way I define it. What do you know about resurrection? Absolutely nothing.

I know all I need to know. It doesn't happen. I don't buy into faith-based claims for obvious reasons, particulary claims where the evidence is not commensurate with the conviction. A gazillion billion people have died before us and not one has returned. Not even Jesus.

[+Liquid Gardens]

5 hours ago, jypsijemini said:

Medicine isn't science?

OMFG really dude? *2020's biggest face palm*

Medicine is science, but medical doctors are not usually scientists.  You can practice medicine just fine without really knowing how to put together a well-constructed scientific experiment and evaluate data proficiently. 

As has been noted he's chosen to publish a book rather than submit his data and findings which makes it pretty clear that, even if we were to consider him a 'scientist', he's probably not 'doing science' in this particular case.

[preacherman76]

54 minutes ago, Marcion Meets E. Sibyl said:

Not sure how to access my many past posts, especially since I have changed my avatar's name a number of times.
The gist of my previous posts regarding resurrection is very much the same: VERY painful resurrection because of reviving nerves/muscles, decaying body, dead for many hours, slimy and smelly flesh. And, there is that extra otherworldly aspect to being brought back from the other-side w/ a powerful Being in the mix.

Peace!

Ok, well if you ever get the chance I'd really like to read the details of it, Maybe in a PM? If you get the time though. No rush. Thanks again.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

4 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I know all I need to know. It doesn't happen. I don't buy into faith-based claims for obvious reasons, particulary claims where the evidence is not commensurate with the conviction. A gazillion billion people have died before us and not one has returned. Not even Jesus.

Hold on to your conviction.

Peace!

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Ok, well if you ever get the chance I'd really like to read the details of it, Maybe in a PM? If you get the time though. No rush. Thanks again.

I'll PM you later.

[Duke Wellington]

Am I allowed to talk about legal hallucinogenic experiences?

Earlier I said in my opinion where we direct our conscious awareness we experience a reality. So I better clarify that. Lets go for a walk down a road and notice that things keep grabbing our attention. The pretty woman walking past, the loud exhaust on a car, a seagull that nearly does a number two on you. You get the idea.

So when our attention is grabbed we enter a narrowed state of mind where we limit our focus to the thing of interest. That is how we navigate down extra dimensions. When we have no awareness of other aspects of reality they become plastic and up for alteration. Only the thing being focused on definitely remains the same.

So as we walk down the street having our focus drawn to one thing then another we are navigating our way through the multiverse. Its a process we can take control of. Focusing only on what we enjoy in life, and putting the rest out of our mind, allows us to craft reality.

Edited January 6, 2020 by RabidMongoose

[+Liquid Gardens]

2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

It also seems odd to me that this unknown level of consciousness, for the most part, cant even come up with an original idea. They nearly all seem to tell the same exact fairy tale, just personalized.

I don't think the level of consciousness exists to come up with original ideas though.  The brain already has a bunch of built-in functionality to address things going out of balance; if you're hurt more pain-killing endorphins are released, the brain automatically tries to manage stress, etc, all of which also affect our perception.  Obviously being comforted by those you love the most and by the suggestion that we live on is tough to top; I'm not left wondering why there aren't more dragons involved.

Actually I'm not sure if I've read the NDE accounts to this detail but it just occurred to me, do people who have an NDE and encounter dead loved ones never see a person that is still alive?

[preacherman76]

44 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I don't think the level of consciousness exists to come up with original ideas though.  The brain already has a bunch of built-in functionality to address things going out of balance; if you're hurt more pain-killing endorphins are released, the brain automatically tries to manage stress, etc, all of which also affect our perception.  Obviously being comforted by those you love the most and by the suggestion that we live on is tough to top; I'm not left wondering why there aren't more dragons involved.

Actually I'm not sure if I've read the NDE accounts to this detail but it just occurred to me, do people who have an NDE and encounter dead loved ones never see a person that is still alive?

Hey LG, I hope you had a happy new year.

I've gotta head out to a Dr appointment here in a couple minutes, so I don't have a lot of time to respond to this.

I'd like to answer the last part of your post though, for now. Its funny you asked that. I have been considering writing a short book on experiences from hospice nurses as they help people through deaths door, so to speak. I asked the same question to one of the long time nurses my wife works with. In her first few years she was fascinated after seeing so many patients having similar experiences seeing loved ones that had passed in the last few days of their lives. So much so that she would speak with family members to confirm that the patient was seeing people who had actually passed.

To her surprise she had never come across a patient seeing people who were still alive. Now I don't know if that is always the case. After all we are only talking about one nurses experience, but I know I was very surprised to hear that.

[Duke Wellington]

32 minutes ago, iridescence said:

Is there any correct definition of consciousness? I can find lots of interpretations and none of them really make sense or seem ambiguous to me.

For example, this is what google shows me on conscious:

1. aware of and responding to one's surroundings.

2. having knowledge of something

The official position in science is that no one knows what conscious is or how it arises.

When you investigate it by doing your own research then you will discover that. You also have to be on your guard against people trying to argue their preferred school of thought. A false fake scientific argument can be quite convincing unless you have clued yourself up about what science actually says.

[zep73]

14 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Where?

What information?

The method is universal. I've applied it to this subject, and added some criticism:

Observation: People who almost died tell similar stories of their experience.
Question: What causes their experience? Could it be more than brain chemestry?
Hypothesis: Consciousness is a property of the universe, like gravity.
(Here we need to ask on what basis this hypothesis rests? What evidence does the researcher interpret?)
Experiment: Unfortunately we can't experiment on dying people. It's unethical.
Analysis: But we can analyse similarities in their stories and perhaps their brain activity.
Conclusion: The brain acts as a filter for consciousness.
(Without the evidence, the conclusion is hollow and invalid.)

You ask about what information we should be careful not to dismiss? I don't know yet. But his reputation is not helping:

Quote

• He has been criticised by the medical community for arguing that human consciousness can survive bodily death.
• According to Susan Blackmore the documentary misled viewers with beliefs that are rejected by the majority of scientists. Blackmore criticized the documentary for biased and "dishonest reporting".
•  Robert Todd Carroll has written that Fenwick has made metaphysical assumptions and dismissed possible psychological and physiological explanations for near-death experiences.

I regret defending the guy's conclusions, especially after digging into his peer responses. I was wrong about him.

[zep73]

13 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Have my impressions helped you understand better what I meant or are you still wondering around in a dilemma?

No, I can finally give it a rest now, after hours upon hours of excruciating speculation 

[papageorge1]

10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

You can't support your opinion.

I can support my opinion I believe overwhelmingly well. Because everything can't be perfectly proven to every never-say-die skeptic becomes no longer an important concern.

[papageorge1]

9 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

Until there is at least one instance of confirmed consciousness without a brain I'm going to say no.

What would it take to call it 'confirmed' though. That is why a never-say-die skeptic can make the game go on forever but with the weight of all strong cases the question to me becomes 'what is most reasonable to believe'. And I believe the cumulative weight of multiple different types of psychic/paranormal phenomena has shown that consciousness and intelligence without a physical brain occurs.

We each must be honest to ourselves with the evidence and think for ourselves.

Edited January 6, 2020 by papageorge1

[papageorge1]

Just now, iridescence said:

Hi Papageorge1,

Can you please explain how consciousness exists without matter? My conclusion is that matter and consciousness are sides of the same coin. When we die, we cannot longer experience the matter that defines us as individuals.

First thank you for respectfully worded questions.

God/Brahman is infinite consciousness which is that thing that experiences subjectively and sees a big picture. The brain can be reduced to atoms and electrons moving around but then that then requires some 'mysterious' step to produce subjective feelings. 

Consciousness is the mystery we can not get behind. It IS FUNDAMENTAL. It just 'is' to us. Why/What/How there is God/Brahman is a question we can not get behind. It precedes the world of matter. I will quote one of the father's of Quantum Mechanics:

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

Max Planck

21 minutes ago, iridescence said:

 Also, I think that the idea of individual souls create separation and it doesn't seem right to me, at least from a spiritual perspective.

As for 'individual souls' Advaitan (non-dual) philosophy holds that there are levels/realms of increasing denseness through which God/Brahman/Consciousness experiences. One terminology includes levels buddhic/causal/mental/astral/physical. They exist in additional dimensions and the grosser dimensions do not directly detect the subtler realms/dimensions. So we are not just physical body but also have interpenetrating astral/mental/causal bodies we do not directly see through the physical senses. At death the subtle bodies continue without the clunky gross physical body. As reported in the Near Death Experiences you will experience as a continuation of where you were but in a lighter freer body on the astral plane.

[stereologist]

16 hours ago, Dejarma said:

allegedly 

Actually there have been experiments that that some neurons continue to survive even hours after an animal's death.

[stereologist]

16 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

It is serious and it is science.

No.