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Sherapy

Would Jesus condone corporal punishment?

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)

I decided to start a thread on this and would like to continue exploring the pros and cons of corporal punishment as outlined biblically.

Would Jesus if he existed condone corporal punishment? Why and Why not? 
 

@Mr Walker and @Festina Lente we can continue  our discussion from the Does Jesus exist thread. 
 

Quote

You simply cannot live your lives protecting a child from all harm, by removing the harm. 

You have to teach the child to  avoid the harm, itself. [sage advice]  (Walker).

“Please do give some examples of removing “harm”. This will be useful.  TY

Perhaps you misunderstood. I thought his post was quite clear.  (Festine Lemte).”

Thank you for the response but what are your examples of you cannot live your life protecting children from harm by removing them.

How would you teach a child to protect themselves from harm if not by removing them? 
 

A scenerio: a 3 year old child has been told that there are fire ants all over the front yard and his mother instructed him to watch out and then he was left  to play in the yard unsupervised, the little guy either  forgets or didn’t fully understand to begin with and then sits on a mound of fire ants and gets severely stung. The father a deeply religious man who advocates the use of corporal punishment spanks the boy for not following his instructions, his justification was his 3 year old was disobedient. 
 

My input is it was a failure on the part of the parents, this is a clear cut case of a 3 year old unsupervised and put into harms way. Few would place this kind of trust in a 3 year old. The best option would be to remove the child  from the harm altogether find a place to play that was safe, there would never be a reason to subject a little one to such harm and pain. 

 

The parent felt it was the responsibility of the child that as sad at it was the boy was disobedient and deserved to be punished using corporal punishment, that maybe next time he would listen.


 

What are your thoughts? What about Jesus would he condone this? 
 

All comments welcome.
 

 

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OverSword
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Desertrat56
Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I decided to start a thread on this and would like to continue exploring the pros and cons of corporal punishment as outlined biblically.

Would Jesus if he existed condone corporal punishment? Why and Why not? 
 

@Mr Walker and @Festina Lente we can continue  our discussion from the Does Jesus exist thread. 
 

Quote

You simply cannot live your lives protecting a child from all harm, by removing the harm. 

You have to teach the child to  avoid the harm, itself. [sage advice]  (Walker).

“Please do give some examples of removing “harm”. This will be useful.  TY

Perhaps you misunderstood. I thought his post was quite clear.  (Festine Lemte).”

Thank you for the response but what are your examples of you cannot live your life protecting children from harm by removing them.

How would you teach a child to protect themselves from harm if not by removing them? 
 

A scenerio: a 3 year old child has been told that there are fire ants all over the front yard and his mother instructed him to watch out and then he was left  to play in the yard unsupervised, the little guy either  forgets or didn’t fully understand to begin with and then sits on a mound of fire ants and gets severely stung. The father a deeply religious man who advocates the use of corporal punishment spanks the boy for not following his instructions, his justification was his 3 year old was disobedient. 
 

My input is it was a failure on the part of the parents, this is a clear cut case of a 3 year old unsupervised and put into harms way. Few would place this kind of trust in a 3 year old. The best option would be to remove the child  from the harm altogether find a place to play that was safe, there would never be a reason to subject a little one to such harm and pain. 

 

The parent felt it was the responsibility of the child that as sad at it was the boy was disobedient and deserved to be punished using corporal punishment, that maybe next time he would listen.


 

What are your thoughts? What about Jesus would he condone this? 
 

All comments welcome.
 

 

I agree with you.  The boy was not disobedient, the parents were negligent.  It would be ok to let the boy play in the yard that had fire ants as long as there was supervision and a reminder to stay away from them with an explanation of why. Some children would then avoid the fire ants, and some would feel the need for proof (I raised one of each temperments).  Even so, a 3 year old needs supervision.

The attitude of the parent is not restricted to some religious zealot, there are many who just need to punish someone and that is the real reason the father in your story punished the boy, it had nothing to do with the religion no matter what he claims.  Obedient children are not obedient because they fear punishment, they are obedient because they trust the adults who take care of and teach them.  My cousin's husband is a very religious man and he did not use corporal punishment for any reason on his 3 sons.  My dad was never religious and used it on all of his children often, and told us it was our fault, but usually it had nothing to do with us

As for the question of Jesus, if he existed and had the qualities that are attributed to him I believe he would be against corporal punishment for everyone, not just children.

Edited by Desertrat56
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Sherapy
8 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I agree with you.  The boy was not disobedient, the parents were negligent.  It would be ok to let the boy play in the yard that had fire ants as long as there was supervision and a reminder to stay away from them with an explanation of why. Some children would then avoid the fire ants, and some would feel the need for proof (I raised one of each temperments).  Even so, a 3 year old needs supervision.

The attitude of the parent is not restricted to some religious zealot, there are many who just need to punish someone and that is the real reason the father in your story punished the boy, it had nothing to do with the religion no matter what he claims.  Obedient children are not obedient because they fear punishment, they are obedient because they trust the adults who take care of and teach them.  My cousin's husband is a very religious man and he did not use corporal punishment for any reason on his 3 sons.  My dad was never religious and used it on all of his children often, and told us it was our fault, but usually it had nothing to do with us

As for the question of Jesus, if he existed and had the qualities that are attributed to him I believe he would be against corporal punishment for everyone, not just children.

Absolutely, if the 3 year old had been supervised had the adult there to steer him from harm. 
As a mother I wouldn’t have let my 3 year old play there I wouldn’t want to take a chance on harming my child or myself. I actually sat in fire ants myself as a kid and it was horribly painful. The 3 year old didn't have the capacity to avoid harm. 

 

I often have questioned how corporal punishment escaped the Jesus teachings. 

My mom was a fundamentalist and was so neglectful and abusive two of my sisters were put in foster care and I went to my grandmothers. 

My grandmother was non religious and preached make sure your kids know they are loved, make this your objective and parenting is a breeze. What would love do? What I would expect from Jesus if he existed. 

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Piney said:

Depends on what attributes you want to give to him. The ICOC says yes. The Quakers say no. The Presbyterians, depends on who you ask.

He's a fictional character who's been used to justify genocide. He'll condone anything a person wants him to. :yes:

Good point, it does depend on the religion. 
A good friend of mine was being sexually violated  by her father and she went to her mom for help and her mom blamed her for her dad’s behavior. To this day many years later her mother blames her. they were Mormon, my friend left the church eventually. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
39 minutes ago, OverSword said:

removed by OverSword

Why did you remove your post?

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I agree with you.  The boy was not disobedient, the parents were negligent.  It would be ok to let the boy play in the yard that had fire ants as long as there was supervision and a reminder to stay away from them with an explanation of why. Some children would then avoid the fire ants, and some would feel the need for proof (I raised one of each temperments).  Even so, a 3 year old needs supervision.

The attitude of the parent is not restricted to some religious zealot, there are many who just need to punish someone and that is the real reason the father in your story punished the boy, it had nothing to do with the religion no matter what he claims.  Obedient children are not obedient because they fear punishment, they are obedient because they trust the adults who take care of and teach them.  My cousin's husband is a very religious man and he did not use corporal punishment for any reason on his 3 sons.  My dad was never religious and used it on all of his children often, and told us it was our fault, but usually it had nothing to do with us

As for the question of Jesus, if he existed and had the qualities that are attributed to him I believe he would be against corporal punishment for everyone, not just children.

An add too on one of your points that corporal punishment is a form of revenge on the child.

"The point of discipline is to transmit values to children. The purpose of punishment is to coerce compliance and secure control, and failing that, to inflict pain as a form of revenge ... "

http://smhp.psych.ucla.edu/pdfdocs/parent.pdf

The biggest con of authoritative parenting is time investment and patience. I will say it is very hands on, 

 

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OverSword
17 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Why did you remove your post?

Because I misread it and thought it said capital punishment.  I believe that Jesus would not have been opposed to giving a three year old a swat to get it in their head no to play in the street or too close to the river.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, OverSword said:

Because I misread it and thought it said capital punishment.  I believe that Jesus would not have been opposed to giving a three year old a swat to get it in their head no to play in the street or too close to the river.

Why would a 3 year old be playing in the street or to close to a river? Why would a 3 year old be unsupervised at all?

Edited by Sherapy
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Desertrat56
Just now, Sherapy said:

Why would a 3 year old be playing in the street or to close to a river?

Because the parents aren't paying attention.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Because the parents aren't paying attention.

Or not parenting at all, AKA as neglect, these would be situations that are harmful to the child and Mom and Dad would be dealing with CPS attending parenting classes. 
 

One would not smack a 3 year old around to get it thru their head not to play by a river. My gosh the risk of drowning is 100 percent,  

 

I wonder if some think that hitting is a substitution for protecting the child?

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Or not parenting at all, AKA as neglect, these would be situations that are harmful to the child and Mom and Dad would be dealing with CPS attending parenting classes. 

Yes, nowadays they would be.  When I was a teenager we lived across the street from a family that had 4 kids.  The youngest was a baby and we never saw him.  The other 3 were locked out of the house every day that they did not have school.  Their mother would give them a sandwich and a glass of kookaid at the back door, they had to knock to give her the dishes back, then the door was locked until dinner time.  My family had 4 kids and we were all over the neighborhood but we had access to come and go and we fixed our own lunch, also baked cookies and other things.  My mom never knew what we were up to.  Two different types of neglect I think.  The other mother did not work, my mom worked or went to school so that was part of the difference.  Both families would be in trouble nowadays. 

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OverSword
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Why would a 3 year old be playing in the street or to close to a river? Why would a 3 year old be unsupervised at all?

Because they're mothers who are washing clothes in the river or they live near a street with a lot of horse or camel traffic.  Mind you I'm talking about dangers that would have been present to people contemporary to Jesus.  As far as corporal punishment for adults I doubt it.

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OverSword
20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Or not parenting at all, AKA as neglect, these would be situations that are harmful to the child and Mom and Dad would be dealing with CPS attending parenting classes. 
 

One would not smack a 3 year old around to get it thru their head not to play by a river. My gosh the risk of drowning is 100 percent,  

 

I wonder if some think that hitting is a substitution for protecting the child?

Who said anything about smacking the kid around?  If you think a slap on the butt to get the attention of a little kid and drive  a point home in order to preserve their lives is smacking them around we will have to disagree.  A  light spank in this case helps associate playing near the river with a negative experience.  

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yes, nowadays they would be.  When I was a teenager we lived across the street from a family that had 4 kids.  The youngest was a baby and we never saw him.  The other 3 were locked out of the house every day that they did not have school.  Their mother would give them a sandwich and a glass of kookaid at the back door, they had to knock to give her the dishes back, then the door was locked until dinner time.  My family had 4 kids and we were all over the neighborhood but we had access to come and go and we fixed our own lunch, also baked cookies and other things.  My mom never knew what we were up to.  Two different types of neglect I think.  The other mother did not work, my mom worked or went to school so that was part of the difference.  Both families would be in trouble nowadays. 

Exactly, letting kids run wild is now considered neglect. They’d leave after breakfast not to return till dinner and the parents  have no idea what they are doing.
This was my mom too, in fact, we had to leave and couldn’t come back till dinner or else. We couldn’t even use the bathroom we used the gas stations. 

My grandmother on the other hand knew where I was all the time who I was with and truthfully  I hung out at home the most we had a pool and all kinds of things to do, my grandma was hanging with us everyone loved her. She had quit her job to take care of me when she got me. I had activities too, I had to be home for Girl Scouts and Ballet and piano, she knew all my friends and their families and my grams and I spent a lot f time together too, we loved the movies and shopping I went every where with her.

I learned so much from her, and we talked about everything. 

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Who said anything about smacking the kid around?  If you think a slap on the butt to get the attention of a little kid and drive  a point home in order to preserve their lives is smacking them around we will have to disagree.  A  light spank in this case helps associate playing near the river with a negative experience.  

For me, smacking a kid at all  is unnecessary. 

Edited by Sherapy
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OverSword
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For me, smacking a kid at all  is unnecessary. 

That's because you never had a bunch of them with you while trying to wash your clothes in the river 2,000 years ago.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Who said anything about smacking the kid around?  If you think a slap on the butt to get the attention of a little kid and drive  a point home in order to preserve their lives is smacking them around we will have to disagree.  A  light spank in this case helps associate playing near the river with a negative experience.  

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OverSword
Just now, Sherapy said:

Do you think it would be a better solution to either supervise the child or put a life jacket on them or  give them swimming lessons as opposed to smacking sense into them ? Just asking. 

As I've stated twice, I'm talking about people that would have lived when Jesus lived.  At a time when 99% of humans were living in abject poverty who had life jackets?  And when you are literally working yourself to an early grave who has time for swimming or lessons for swimming?

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, OverSword said:

As I've stated twice, I'm talking about people that would have lived when Jesus lived.  At a time when 99% of humans were living in abject poverty who had life jackets?  And when you are literally working yourself to an early grave who has time for swimming or lessons for swimming?

Interesting, do you think abject poverty is a thing of the past?

 

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OverSword
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Interesting, do you think abject poverty is a thing of the past?

 

Comparatively.  In the past 99.99% of all humans lived on less than the UN guidelines defining poverty as compared to 12% now.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, OverSword said:

As I've stated twice, I'm talking about people that would have lived when Jesus lived.  At a time when 99% of humans were living in abject poverty who had life jackets?  And when you are literally working yourself to an early grave who has time for swimming or lessons for swimming?

In doing a search I found this, it seems not every society had the same views on corporal punishment for a variety of reasons,  while I appreciate your play acting I am looking to explore actual data. Thank you for your contributions  none the less.
 

“Sons were particularly valued and discipline was moderated, as one proverb expresses “A poor man does not strike his son a single blow; he treasures him forever.” (Proverbs from Ki-en-gir, 17) Nonetheless, the bonds of parent to child could be broken by a delinquent child, as one law states”
 

“Be it enacted forever and for all future days: If a son says to his father, "You are not my father," he [the father] can cut off his [the son's] locks, make him a slave and sell him for money. If a son say to his mother, "You are not my mother," she can cut off his locks, turn him out of town, or (at least) drive him away from home, deprive him of citizenship and of inheritance, but his liberty he loses not. If a father say to his son, "You are not my son," the latter has to leave house and field and he loses everything. If a mother says to her son, "You are not my son," he shall leave house and furniture. (A Collection of Mesopotamian Laws, 1)”
https://www.neatorama.com/neatobambino/2010/07/26/parenting-through-history-a-look-at-childrearing-in-five-historic-societies/

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Festina
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I decided to start a thread on this and would like to continue exploring the pros and cons of corporal punishment as outlined biblically.

Would Jesus if he existed condone corporal punishment? Why and Why not? 
 

@Mr Walker and @Festina Lente we can continue  our discussion from the Does Jesus exist thread. 
 

Quote

You simply cannot live your lives protecting a child from all harm, by removing the harm. 

You have to teach the child to  avoid the harm, itself. [sage advice]  (Walker).

“Please do give some examples of removing “harm”. This will be useful.  TY

Perhaps you misunderstood. I thought his post was quite clear.  (Festine Lemte).”

Thank you for the response but what are your examples of you cannot live your life protecting children from harm by removing them.

How would you teach a child to protect themselves from harm if not by removing them? 
 

A scenerio: a 3 year old child has been told that there are fire ants all over the front yard and his mother instructed him to watch out and then he was left  to play in the yard unsupervised, the little guy either  forgets or didn’t fully understand to begin with and then sits on a mound of fire ants and gets severely stung. The father a deeply religious man who advocates the use of corporal punishment spanks the boy for not following his instructions, his justification was his 3 year old was disobedient. 
 

My input is it was a failure on the part of the parents, this is a clear cut case of a 3 year old unsupervised and put into harms way. Few would place this kind of trust in a 3 year old. The best option would be to remove the child  from the harm altogether find a place to play that was safe, there would never be a reason to subject a little one to such harm and pain. 

 

The parent felt it was the responsibility of the child that as sad at it was the boy was disobedient and deserved to be punished using corporal punishment, that maybe next time he would listen.


 

What are your thoughts? What about Jesus would he condone this? 
 

All comments welcome.
 

 

And now he knows— Fire ants sting, so he learned his lesson the hard way which is how most sapiens learn, and he will use discernment when confronted with fire ants in the future. 

Corporal “punishment” is rarely useful, and never useful after the event.  The fire ants were “punishment” enough. 

Touch fire, get burned.  That’s how sapiens learns. 

 

Edited by Festina Lente
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Sherapy

 

@Festina Lente

Thank you, I make no judgments on smacking your son on the hand once versus getting electrocuted . My middle son was quite curious too and tried to stick a toy screw driver in the socket, he was met with his dad telling him no firmly and picking him up and removing him from harms way. The shock of being stopped must have sunk in cuz we had  no further issues.  We got those socket guards and doubled down on our efforts to monitor him. He was around 3 too. He was so curious, such a bundle of energy, now he is all grown up and working on his Masters and he is Football recruiter. Football was our saving grace it gave him a place to channel his energy and passion for life. 
 

On the quotes, I have no idea what they mean. 

 

   7 minutes ago,  Festina Lente said: 

 

I  do not know, as I don’t know him personally and don’t believe he ever existed as presented.    

I’m opposed to corporal punishment.  I am opposed to violence of all kinds.  But I did smack my three year son on the hand when he pulled out the electrical outlet protectors.  Better he live than be electrocuted, as I could not remove the cause of possible harm — the outlets —  and allowed him to roam free in designated places within the home.  

But let me ask you this....why?

According to scripture Jesus said....”I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. Mt. 15:24

I’ve always found this bible verse curious and it’s not commonly shared.

Sent to save the Israelites only — to free them from their incalculably malevolent bloodthirsty vengeful avaricious wrathful jealous parasitic occult dictator — The LORD God of Israel and Hosts; a living thing upon which a parasite feeds? 


   7 minutes ago,  Festina Lente said: 

 

I  do not know, as I don’t know him personally and don’t believe he ever existed as presented.    

I’m opposed to corporal punishment.  I am opposed to violence of all kinds.  But I did smack my three year son on the hand when he pulled out the electrical outlet protectors.  Better he live than be electrocuted, as I could not remove the cause of possible harm — the outlets —  and allowed him to roam free in designated places within the home.  

But let me ask you this....why?

According to scripture Jesus said....”I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. Mt. 15:24

I’ve always found this bible verse curious and it’s not commonly shared.

Sent to save the Israelites only — to free them from their incalculably malevolent bloodthirsty vengeful avaricious wrathful jealous parasitic occult dictator — The LORD God of Israel and Hosts; a living thing upon which a parasite feeds? 

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