Would Jesus condone corporal punishment?

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, they must be indoctrinated in "proper" campus etiquette and forego traditional American values of freedom of speech and expression. Sounds pretty Orwellian to me. 

It sounds like college campuses are trying to be more inclusive and supportive. 
 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Farmer77 said:

The problem is the right has largely forgotten the companion values that go along with them: Respect and responsibility. Until recently those have always been traditional American values as well.

Its not Orwellian its called being a decent human being.

Who gets to define what a "decent human being" is? It's certainly not a "Right" problem. 

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes and there's rub. Who gets to define what a "quality environment" is and how much suppression and exclusion is required to achieve it? College should be for education, not a social experiment.

It is a social education as well.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

It sounds like college campuses are trying to be more inclusive and supportive. 
 

 

No, they're not, at least some of them. On some there's a tyranny of a vocal minority suppressing and dictating to the rights of others.

[Farmer77]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Yes and there's rub. Who gets to define what a "quality environment" is and how much suppression and exclusion is required to achieve it? College should be for education, not a social experiment.

Thats good hyperbole but it wholly denies reality. How do you get that education without a clearly agreed upon set of norms? How does an institution that has been around for 100 plus years adapt to societal evolution if not through experimentation? Who do we as a society learn from if not the University setting and their experiences and experiments?

 

[+Sherapy]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

No, they're not, at least some of them. On some there's a tyranny of a vocal minority suppressing and dictating to the rights of others.

Such as? 

[+Sherapy]

8 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Thats good hyperbole but it wholly denies reality. How do you get that education without a clearly agreed upon set of norms? How does an institution that has been around for 100 plus years adapt to societal evolution if not through experimentation? Who do we as a society learn from if not the University setting and their experiences and experiments?

 

Society changes and with it the rules, it is to be expected. Our constitution is a living breathing document subject to growth based on our needs, 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

It is a social education as well.

Not necessarily an education in social reality. More like utopian fantasy. After college and they leave their "safe place" and have to assimilate into the general populace, are they being taught survival skills?

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Not necessarily an education in social reality. More like utopian fantasy. After college and they leave their "safe place" and have to assimilate into the general populace, are they being taught survival skills?

Mine are thriving and when they run into issues they figure it out. 

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Thats good hyperbole but it wholly denies reality. How do you get that education without a clearly agreed upon set of norms? How does an institution that has been around for 100 plus years adapt to societal evolution if not through experimentation? Who do we as a society learn from if not the University setting and their experiences and experiments?

 

Going to college does not mean one has give up one's rights as an American. I don't glorify college education like you do. Four years and out doesn't impress me. Usually it's wasted on a four year extension of adolescence and not much of consequence learned. It use to be different; one had to really work hard, scholastically to even get in. Now, it's just another big business, an assembly line churning our mediocre BAs.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Mine are thriving and when they run into issues they figure it out. 

Your kids are exceptional, Sheri. 

[Farmer77]

9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Who gets to define what a "decent human being" is?

As always, society. You do realize youre not arguing for the discussion of classic conservative ideals right? I would be fully on board with you if I believed that were true on a large scale. I'm positive it happens somewhere sometime but that is not what all the screaming headlines in the RW media are about. The Big Tent party has expanded the tent just a little too far and is now stuck defending extremist BS as if it were balanced budgets.

 

 

[Farmer77]

12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Not necessarily an education in social reality. More like utopian fantasy. After college and they leave their "safe place" and have to assimilate into the general populace, are they being taught survival skills?

You clearly dont operate in the business world anymore huh?

You know who needs survival skills taught in todays world? (and I know this largely from personal experience as well) Men born before 1980.

The general populace, the moneymaking one anyways, has been changing and growing along with Academia and the kick in the door - chew in the lip-cuss when you wanna cuss- yell when you wanna yell - say whatever you want to say mentality is a one way ticket to the unemployment line. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Farmer77

[+Hammerclaw]

14 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

As always, society. You do realize youre not arguing for the discussion of classic conservative ideals right? I would be fully on board with you if I believed that were true on a large scale. I'm positive it happens somewhere sometime but that is not what all the screaming headlines in the RW media are about. The Big Tent party has expanded the tent just a little too far and is now stuck defending extremist BS as if it were balanced budgets.

 

 

Among the masses, there is no consensus on conservative ideals. It's a mixed bag an anyone can go against the grain anytime they want with out being ostracized. We're free thinkers and no one dictates our thoughts to us. Abortion is a hot button topic, but just as many--if not more--grassroots republicans are for it as are against. Every extended family has at least one.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Hammerclaw

[+Hammerclaw]

.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Hammerclaw

[Farmer77]

3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Among the masses, there is no consensus on conservative ideals. It's a mixed bag an anyone can go against the grain anytime they want with out being ostracized. We're free thinkers and no one dictates our thoughts to us. Abortion is a hot button topic, but just as many--if not more--grassroots republicans are for it as are against. Every extended family has at least one.

Post 2016 you are absolutely correct.  

The problem that people who have to operate in society are running into is someone always dictates your thoughts to you. Your school, your boss, your wife, the municipal office youre in, the TSA line at the airport. There will always be an authority dictating societal norms. You guys post 2016 have been put in the position of arguing that basic fact of human existence solely so your party leaders could harvest more votes.

[Farmer77]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Who talking about stupid behavior? You folks seem to only have experience in that little bubble in which you reside. That's why Hillary lost. She simply couldn't relate to the people outside it in all the other States. Typical how your conversation have resolved into stereotypical insults. Why don't you call us a "basket of deplorables", too?

Where did I insult you?

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

Post 2016 you are absolutely correct.  

The problem that people who have to operate in society are running into is someone always dictates your thoughts to you. Your school, your boss, your wife, the municipal office youre in, the TSA line at the airport. There will always be an authority dictating societal norms. You guys post 2016 have been put in the position of arguing that basic fact of human existence solely so your party leaders could harvest more votes.

No, we have no need to. We've made our choice and back the President. It's you guys that need to get yourselves focused. Looking at your candidates, you're all over the map right now and time's a-wastin'. I won't derail this thread any further.  Pax.

[Farmer77]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

No, we have no need to. We've made our choice and back the President. It's you guys that need to get yourselves focused. Looking at your candidates, you're all over the map right now and time's a-wastin'. I won't derail this thread any further.  Pax.

Perhaps the worse thing about Trumpism is the way it has killed conversation. They all end in sloganeering, electioneering and some attempt at insults.

 

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Who talking about stupid behavior? You folks seem to only have experience in that little bubble in which you reside. That's why Hillary lost. She simply couldn't relate to the people outside it in all the other States. Typical how your conversation have resolved into stereotypical insults. Why don't you call us a "basket of deplorables", too?

 

16 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Your kids are exceptional, Sheri. 

I was supportive, willing to hold a hand through a tough time and had a lot of different beliefs in the family unit and I extended respect and asked for it in return.

I have told my mother in my house you are an example and while you have the right to your opinion it has to be presented in a way that is respectful of the kids that are looking to you as an example, more than once she got offended and more than once she left and more than once I let her.

 

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

@Paranoid Android and @Mr Walker

 

Picking back up with safe spaces in college.

MKLSGL has been awesome in outlining  the pros and cons of safe spaces. I think the distinguishing factor is that safe spaces are addressing the opinions and behaviors that are unsolicited, judgmental, that create the need that one has to defend themselves or create a sense of not feeling safe. A college campus in and of itself doesn’t have a free pass on sharing opinions or behaviors without considering the persons position too , especially for the that are marginalized or have preexisting traumas, or feel unsafe and vulnerable. 

According to MKLSGL at their best safe spaces are intended to provide a place that is judgment free, a space where one can be vulnerable without the fear of judgment and harm this is how we work towards productive constructive debates and discussions, I think the critics of safe spaces are solely focused on their sole right to free speech this is not realistic, free speech doesn’t mean without regard for another.. I think free speech includes empathy and compassion. We can find a way to give an opinion or share ourselves that is mindful of the rights/feelings of the other person too. 
 

For ex: I recently found myself in a situation on UM, a poster send me inappropriate sexual pictures and free speech in PM, with no regard for me at all, what helped was the response  I got from the staff and friends here on UM, that fully advocated for my right to feel safe and protected. UM created this safe place for me just by being a member I can’t fathom how it would have further harmed me had I have been met with criticism suggesting I needed to just suck it up because I was just being emotionally weak and needed to be coddled from reality cuz I can’t cope and the problem is my upbringing and the problem is  I just need to get over it, cuz this is just how it is. 

Yes, you bet I am I support of safe places especially on a college campus and I commend colleges everywhere who offer this to their students and to the parents that take the time to teach their kids that free speech is a two way street. I can tell you this type of empathy and compassion helps elevate discussions and experiences to levels that create productivity and inclusivity while creating an environment that is a safe place to express oneself.

 

 

Everyone has a right to a safe place.(both physically and emotionally)

  What the y have no right to do is shut down ideas opinions etc., which make them feel uncomfortable or unsafe,  just so they do not have to feel threatened, even when no threat exists.

Your right includes the right to prevent unsolicited and unwanted material being passed on to you but it does not extend to preventing everyone from receiving similar material if the y do NOT feel threatened or uncomfortable with it 

You are correct.

It is not weak or "needing to be coddled."  We all have different things which make us feel uncomfortable or unsafe  

Once you explain your position and ask for the behaviour to stop,  it becomes harassment, and in,some countries a criminal offence, if people continue to send you such material

Universities and colleges, however, are places where robust debate, and a variety of values beliefs and opinions MUST be allowed.There is no place for restricting speech to the most popular or acceptable topics. 

There is no place for stopping everyone in such an institution  from  hearing a speaker, just because  some people find the speaker or topic objectionable. It is ironic that, in a country like america, founded on a principle of free speech, that speech is becoming so censored and restricted due to non democratic processes and pressures.

There is even a lot of pressure in Australia for universities to ban anti chinese speakers and minority groups, because chinese students provide so much of the funding to the universities  and every chinese person, even abroad, is considered a "citizen of the state", rather than a free willed individual   

[+Sherapy]

13 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Perhaps the worse thing about Trumpism is the way it has killed conversation. They all end in sloganeering, electioneering and some attempt at insults.

 

Great example of how a “right to free speech” can kill the conversation. 

Another one is how “right to an opinion,” can grow into propaganda and become the basis for genocide.

and having a “safe place” giving a voice to the oppressed and vulnerable can be the basis of a Civil Rights movement that is much needed. 
 

Knowing the difference  matters. 

I am so grateful for free speech but it does come with responsibility.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Calling the bank of your river a "safe space" is not the same thing as a university institution officially declaring a section of their facility to be a safe zone. Surely you can see the difference between private practise and public policy. But I do agree that as a private concept, a safe space is not an issue, but as public policy I'm more hesitant (I'd prefer less legislation than more legislation - I think as a society we're over-legislating everything)

While it is more important that students are not compelled to attend speakers they find objectionable or intimidating, I think there must be, in some sense, a "space" where everyone could go to feel safe 

I m pretty well adjusted but the current bushfires in australia bring back memories of my own experiences,  so sometimes i enter my own safe zone,  by not watching the news (i can cope with newspaper articles, although they still bring me to tears in some cases 

So, when  for example, there is a controversial debate about rape in a university, I can understand how a few individuals traumatised by rape might need a place to go, not to be physically safe but to be emotionally safe and supported. 

In part seriously, i would suggest that such a place be shielded from  wifi connection, and be psychologically structured to be safe  eg with the right music, colour schemes,  scents and temperature, to induce comfort of mind.  Plus of course with easy access to professional help, if that was required  

As you would know we teach resilience all through Australian schools from reception to university level  but some people, who are already traumatised, do  need a place where they can feel safe 

[Mr Walker]

Gee, a lot of this debate reminds me of Orwell's classic,"Animal Farm" 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Great example of how a “right to free speech” can kill the conversation. 

Another one is how “right to an opinion,” can grow into propaganda and become the basis for genocide.

and having a “safe place” giving a voice to the oppressed and vulnerable can be the basis of a Civil Rights movement that is much needed. 
 

Knowing the difference  matters. 

I am so grateful for free speech but it does come with responsibility.

There was no "safe place" for the Civil Rights movement, Sheri. Those folks got down in the trenches and fought tooth and nail to make the whole country a "safe place". Some of them gave their lives for the cause. 

As I Grew Older

It was a long time ago.
I have almost forgotten my dream.
But it was there then,
In front of me,
Bright like a sun—
My dream.
And then the wall rose,
Rose slowly,
Slowly,
Between me and my dream.
Rose until it touched the sky—
The wall.
Shadow.
I am black.
I lie down in the shadow.
No longer the light of my dream before me,
Above me.
Only the thick wall.
Only the shadow.
My hands!
My dark hands!
Break through the wall!
Find my dream!
Help me to shatter this darkness,
To smash this night,
To break this shadow
Into a thousand lights of sun,
Into a thousand whirling dreams
Of sun!

Langston Hughes

Edited January 10, 2020 by Hammerclaw