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Sherapy

Would Jesus condone corporal punishment?

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Tatetopa

Piney might have some good insights on how Indians raised kids in a dangerous and demanding environment.

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Festina
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

 

@Festina Lente

Thank you, I make no judgments on smacking your son on the hand once versus getting electrocuted . My middle son was quite curious too and tried to stick a toy screw driver in the socket, he was met with his dad telling him no firmly and picking him up and removing him from harms way. The shock of being stopped must have sunk in cuz we had  no further issues.  We got those socket guards and doubled down on our efforts to monitor him. He was around 3 too. He was so curious, such a bundle of energy, now he is all grown up and working on his Masters and he is Football recruiter. Football was our saving grace it gave him a place to channel his energy and passion for life. 
 

On the quotes, I have no idea what they mean. 

 

   7 minutes ago,  Festina Lente said: 

 

I  do not know, as I don’t know him personally and don’t believe he ever existed as presented.    

I’m opposed to corporal punishment.  I am opposed to violence of all kinds.  But I did smack my three year son on the hand when he pulled out the electrical outlet protectors.  Better he live than be electrocuted, as I could not remove the cause of possible harm — the outlets —  and allowed him to roam free in designated places within the home.  

But let me ask you this....why?

According to scripture Jesus said....”I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. Mt. 15:24

I’ve always found this bible verse curious and it’s not commonly shared.

Sent to save the Israelites only — to free them from their incalculably malevolent bloodthirsty vengeful avaricious wrathful jealous parasitic occult dictator — The LORD God of Israel and Hosts; a living thing upon which a parasite feeds? 


   7 minutes ago,  Festina Lente said: 

 

I  do not know, as I don’t know him personally and don’t believe he ever existed as presented.    

I’m opposed to corporal punishment.  I am opposed to violence of all kinds.  But I did smack my three year son on the hand when he pulled out the electrical outlet protectors.  Better he live than be electrocuted, as I could not remove the cause of possible harm — the outlets —  and allowed him to roam free in designated places within the home.  

But let me ask you this....why?

According to scripture Jesus said....”I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. Mt. 15:24

I’ve always found this bible verse curious and it’s not commonly shared.

Sent to save the Israelites only — to free them from their incalculably malevolent bloodthirsty vengeful avaricious wrathful jealous parasitic occult dictator — The LORD God of Israel and Hosts; a living thing upon which a parasite feeds? 

Lol! My son found a hairpin, have no idea where it came from, and tried to shove it in the socket. Are there invisible cosmic critters floating around possessing them to do such foolish things?    

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I decided to start a thread on this and would like to continue exploring the pros and cons of corporal punishment as outlined biblically.

Would Jesus if he existed condone corporal punishment? Why and Why not? 
 

@Mr Walker and @Festina Lente we can continue  our discussion from the Does Jesus exist thread. 
 

Quote

You simply cannot live your lives protecting a child from all harm, by removing the harm. 

You have to teach the child to  avoid the harm, itself. [sage advice]  (Walker).

“Please do give some examples of removing “harm”. This will be useful.  TY

Perhaps you misunderstood. I thought his post was quite clear.  (Festine Lemte).”

Thank you for the response but what are your examples of you cannot live your life protecting children from harm by removing them.

How would you teach a child to protect themselves from harm if not by removing them? 
 

A scenerio: a 3 year old child has been told that there are fire ants all over the front yard and his mother instructed him to watch out and then he was left  to play in the yard unsupervised, the little guy either  forgets or didn’t fully understand to begin with and then sits on a mound of fire ants and gets severely stung. The father a deeply religious man who advocates the use of corporal punishment spanks the boy for not following his instructions, his justification was his 3 year old was disobedient. 
 

My input is it was a failure on the part of the parents, this is a clear cut case of a 3 year old unsupervised and put into harms way. Few would place this kind of trust in a 3 year old. The best option would be to remove the child  from the harm altogether find a place to play that was safe, there would never be a reason to subject a little one to such harm and pain. 

 

The parent felt it was the responsibility of the child that as sad at it was the boy was disobedient and deserved to be punished using corporal punishment, that maybe next time he would listen.


 

What are your thoughts? What about Jesus would he condone this? 
 

All comments welcome.
 

 

Considering Jesus as only a man born in that period of history, my answer is that he wouldn't have thought twice about it, anymore than he would have of the institution of slavery or absolute monarchs and emperors. All were facts of life he was born into and socially acceptable to peoples of that era. Projecting contemporary morality or democratic principles back in time is non sequitur to those historical truths.  

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Sherapy
5 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

And now he knows— Fire ants sting, so he learned his lesson the hard way which is how most sapiens learn, and he will use discernment when confronted with fire ants in the future. 

Touch fire, get burned.  That’s how sapiens learns. 

 

And there is that, But good grief the idea of protecting our kids is to avoid harm not to send our kids to it, especially when they are ill equipped to navigate theIf environment. 

In all honesty, I don’t know the outcome or what became of this wee lad,  for me, I still wouldn’t knowingly trust my 3 year old kid with such a situation for any reason. I would be to worried for my child’s safety on many levels. 

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Lol! My son found a hairpin, have no idea where it came from, and tried to shove it in the socket. Are there invisible cosmic critters floating around possessing them to do such foolish things?    

When I was about 11 my family babysat 3 boys for a weekend, neighbors kids because the parents had to go out of town.  The youngest was about 4 but acted a lot younger.  I heard him scream and ran in to the bathroom to find him standing on the sink crying because he had taken a bobby pin and put it in the electric plug above the sink.   It was the only plulg in the bathroom, he had to work hard to get up on the sink!  I can't imagine why some kids do that.  I caught my nephew with a butter knife  heading for the electrical outlet by the door when he was 2.  It is very strange that some kids will do that, if they succeed, I think the shock and sparks are punishment enough.  And hopefully they don't burn themselve badly or burn the house down.  There are a lot better safety features since the 60's.

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Tatetopa

If Jesus was knowledgeable about human nature he would probably know that people perform to higher expectations when cherished and rewarded.  When people are threatened and punished they do the least they can get by with to  avoid punishment.

If Jesus was aware that animals have similar characters, he would know that chastising and beating a dog when it returns home is a poor way to keep it from running away again.

If Jesus was knowledgeable about children and learning he would not punish them for failing to achieve understanding or performance  beyond their current capabilities.

Regardless of era or culture, there have always been those who excel at teaching and those who find fulfillment in meting  out punishment.  The goals are different. 

As I recall, when Jesus was teaching people how to treat one another,  he spent most of his time speaking about the rewards of heaven rather than the horrors of hell

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Lol! My son found a hairpin, have no idea where it came from, and tried to shove it in the socket. Are there invisible cosmic critters floating around possessing them to do such foolish things?    

Ha ha ha ha ha it is it funny, my middle son had to be monitored constantly, we took shifts. I credit cultivating my incredible patience with him. He was so insatiably curious, I literally spent many days at FAO Swartz's the toy store kids can play with everything all day. It kept him engaged. Funny now, I look back and think how passionate and alive he was, he loved life and wanted to see and explore everything. He walked at 8 months too, climbed out of his crib before he could walk. He talked early, he read early, he is the most interesting person he knows so much he constantly is looking things up. He is working on his Master’s gonna go for his PH.D the first in our family ever anywhere. I shared custody with my ex and my ex used time out on him probably to give himself a break lol, so at my house when he felt he was in the wrong he would put himself on time out and ask me to time him 1 minute per year. He would lay at his bedroom door on his pillow with his stuffed bear and keep asking how much time he had left. I would tell him at my house there is no time out, but he would say this is what my Dad does so I can regroup. He never got in trouble either he would tell his friends no, he takes being a good person really seriously.  I saw a strong moral grounding in him early. He was a hysterically funny kid. I can’t wait till he has kids, he will be the best Dad.  I am so glad we all had the where with all to nurture and channel his passion as opposed to extinguishing it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Desertrat56
5 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

If Jesus was knowledgeable about human nature he would probably know that people perform to higher expectations when cherished and rewarded.  When people are threatened and punished they do the least they can get by with to  avoid punishment.

If Jesus was aware that animals have similar characters, he would know that chastising and beating a dog when it returns home is a poor way to keep it from running away again.

If Jesus was knowledgeable about children and learning he would not punish them for failing to achieve understanding or performance  beyond their current capabilities.

Regardless of era or culture, there have always been those who excel at teaching and those who find fulfillment in meting  out punishment.  The goals are different. 

As I recall, when Jesus was teaching people how to treat one another,  he spent most of his time speaking about the rewards of heaven rather than the horrors of hell

That reminds me of something my friend told me once.  She told her mother she did not want to hear anymore about her (mother's) devil worship after her mother told her not to go to the grocery store after dark because the devil walks the streets at night.  :lol:  What you say is a very good point.

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Debra F. II

I know, I know...

Good topic! 

Just my opinion here and sorry to mention the bible but..

My guess would be no. There's a story in the bible about a women who was found guilty of shaming her family, I believe she had an affair if my memory serves me well; her punishment was death by stoning. Jesus stood by her and looked at the crowd ready to throw stones at her and he said, do not all of you sin? Or something to that effect, who here hasn't sinned? & basically made the point that everyone should be stoned to death, none of them at that point could stone her, the womens life was saved by Jesus himself.

So if he were to condone it, he wouldn't have stepped in and saved her live, he most likely would have picked up a stone and threw it at her but he did not and had the power in his words to stop the others.

Maybe some of you know the story that I am referring to.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

If Jesus was knowledgeable about human nature he would probably know that people perform to higher expectations when cherished and rewarded.  When people are threatened and punished they do the least they can get by with to  avoid punishment.

If Jesus was aware that animals have similar characters, he would know that chastising and beating a dog when it returns home is a poor way to keep it from running away again.

If Jesus was knowledgeable about children and learning he would not punish them for failing to achieve understanding or performance  beyond their current capabilities.

Regardless of era or culture, there have always been those who excel at teaching and those who find fulfillment in meting  out punishment.  The goals are different. 

As I recall, when Jesus was teaching people how to treat one another,  he spent most of his time speaking about the rewards of heaven rather than the horrors of hell

I think you are right the more I look into this the more  I see there has always been those that see child rearing as an incredible opportunity for growth and those that think punishing is the gold standard in teaching kids.

I think encouragement is way of the wise. I have experienced both approaches and  hands down I think the way my grandmother used empathy and encouragement and love made me want to be a better person. With my Mom, I felt resentment towards her she robbed me of being a carefree happy kid, childhood was exhausting with her there was never anything positive, or hopeful, I just wanted it over with as soon as possible, I was 7 and had enough, I would run away and they would bring me back . Ugh, Thank god I had my grandmother she gave me back my childhood and the wonder of being a kid. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
4 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

I know, I know...

Good topic! 

Just my opinion here and sorry to mention the bible but..

My guess would be no. There's a story in the bible about a women who was found guilty of shaming her family, I believe she had an affair if my memory serves me well; her punishment was death by stoning. Jesus stood by her and looked at the crowd ready to throw stones at her and he said, do not all of you sin? Or something to that effect, who here hasn't sinned? & basically made the point that everyone should be stoned to death, none of them at that point could stone her, the womens life was saved by Jesus himself.

So if he were to condone it, he wouldn't have stepped in and saved her live, he most likely would have picked up a stone and threw it at her but he did not and had the power in his words to stop the others.

Maybe some of you know the story that I am referring to.

Yes, I know this story, Good pull.

 

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joc
Just now, Sherapy said:

Yes, I know this story, Good pull.

 

God had no problem telling the Israelites to kill everyone...men, women, children...everyone.  And..he asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son.  And...God sacrificed his only son.

And God is a Holy Trinity...they are one...that means that when Jesus said, Before Moses was, I am!...what he was really saying is that he is God, has always been God and will always be God.

The Transferative Property of Equality tells us that:  If  A = B and B = C  then  A = C.  Which means that God IS Jesus.   Therefore it was Jesus who told the Israelites to kill them all...even the little babies.  I would gather from all that, that Jesus doesn't have a problem with corporal punishment...seeing as how he flogged the money lenders himself.

Jesus has no problem with Corporate Punishment.

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Sherapy
Just now, joc said:

God had no problem telling the Israelites to kill everyone...men, women, children...everyone.  And..he asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son.  And...God sacrificed his only son.

And God is a Holy Trinity...they are one...that means that when Jesus said, Before Moses was, I am!...what he was really saying is that he is God, has always been God and will always be God.

The Transferative Property of Equality tells us that:  If  A = B and B = C  then  A = C.  Which means that God IS Jesus.   Therefore it was Jesus who told the Israelites to kill them all...even the little babies.  I would gather from all that, that Jesus doesn't have a problem with corporal punishment...seeing as how he flogged the money lenders himself.

Jesus has no problem with Corporate Punishment.

Good point, question why didn’t he stone the prostitute? 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Piney might have some good insights on how Indians raised kids in a dangerous and demanding environment.

@Piney see above.

I tell ya this makes me miss BTE. He was an incredible step dad. 

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Debra F. II
51 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I think you are right the more I look into this the more  I see there has always been those that see child rearing as an incredible opportunity for growth and those that think punishing is the gold standard in teaching kids.

I think encouragement is way of the wise. I have experienced both approaches and  hands down I think the way my grandmother used empathy and encouragement and love made me want to be a better person. With my Mom, I felt resentment towards her she robbed me of being a carefree happy kid, childhood was exhausting with her there was never anything positive, or hopeful, I just wanted it over with as soon as possible, I was 7 and had enough, I would run away and they would bring me back . Ugh, Thank god I had my grandmother she gave me back my childhood and the wonder of being a kid. 

Sounds like we might have a few things in common : ) 

and I'll throw it out there...

but no matter what age we are, in some peoples eyes we are ALL God's children. 

&... Parents are irrelevant. 

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Piney
25 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

@Piney see above.

I tell ya this makes me miss BTE. He was an incredible step dad. 

A Vision Quest could be considered child abuse. The teenager has to literally think they were exiled and abandon by the tribe for it to work. But there was always somebody secretly watching them.  

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Festina
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Good point, question why didn’t he stone the prostitute? 

That story was added at later time as  the earliest “Bible” we have available does not include this tale. 

“Thou shalt  not covet they neighbors house, cattle, slaves or wife”— all property.  

The definition of adultery deserves a thread of its own as well.

According to jewish law adultery occurs when married man has sexual relations with a married women. Sex with unmarried women was not considered adultery.  For women this rule did not apply.  

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/adultery/

Fornication and adultery are treated differently.  

Quote

 

.....Prostitution has existed in Israel since Biblical times, and has been practiced by both women and men. People were not advised to become prostitutes or place their daughters in the trade, as it was viewed as "shameful profession". [7]

....Prostitution was legalized in Israel in 1949 under the Prostitution and Abomination Act, although homosexual prostitution was not legalized till 1954. However, in 1962, indoor prostitution, but not street prostitution, was prohibited, and is controlled by the Israeli Criminal Law 1966, Sections 199-202. However, indoor prostitution has continued to thrive. It was not perceived as a major problem till the 1970s, (Cnaan 1982), and prostitution policy has been described as "benign neglect". A 1975 inquiry (Ben-Eato) recommended legalization, but this was not implemented. (Cnaan 1982)

.....

Israel is a country of immigrants, including a large number of Russians, Ukrainians and Central Asians. Immigrant women have included prostitutes, while others turned to prostitution due to economic hardship in their new land. Prostitution in Israel has been dominated by immigrants from the former Soviet Union since the mass immigration in the 1990s.[9] A study published in 2005 found 1,000 Russian, Ukrainian and Central Asian prostitutes working in Israel, mostly in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. From 1991 to 1994, the number of "massage parlors" run by Russian, Ukrainian and Central Asian immigrants rose from 14 to 111.[21]

 

 

.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Israel

 

Edited by Festina Lente
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Sherapy
13 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

Sounds like we might have a few things in common : ) 

and I'll throw it out there...

but no matter what age we are, in some peoples eyes we are ALL God's children. 

&... Parents are irrelevant. 

Meaning it doesn’t matter what we think in the biblical eyes?

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Piney said:

A Vision Quest could be considered child abuse. The teenager has to literally think they were exiled and abandon by the tribe for it to work. But there was always somebody secretly watching them.  

What is a vision quest, and what is the aim of it, Piney?
 

Edited by Sherapy
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Piney
Just now, Sherapy said:

What is a vision quest, Piney?
 

It teaches you how to take care of yourself sometimes creating a subconscious thought form as a "Guardian Spirit".

The teen is treated badly for a week and then made to think they are exiled from the tribe. 

We were also staunch Darwinists and smothered handicap children who could never contribute or survive on their own.

" I see no blind, cripples or mentally deficient amongst them"- William Penn

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Piney said:

It teaches you how to take care of yourself sometimes creating a subconscious thought form as a "Guardian Spirit".

The teen is treated badly for a week and then made to think they are exiled from the tribe. 

We were also staunch Darwinists and smothered handicap children who could never contribute or survive on their own.

" I see no blind, cripples or mentally deficient amongst them"- William Penn

Like a right of passage? What does this do help them become resilient, robust, adaptable better able to deal with the inevitable and unpredictable of life?

Edited by Sherapy

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Debra F. II
45 minutes ago, joc said:

God had no problem telling the Israelites to kill everyone...men, women, children...everyone.  And..he asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son.  And...God sacrificed his only son.

And God is a Holy Trinity...they are one...that means that when Jesus said, Before Moses was, I am!...what he was really saying is that he is God, has always been God and will always be God.

The Transferative Property of Equality tells us that:  If  A = B and B = C  then  A = C.  Which means that God IS Jesus.   Therefore it was Jesus who told the Israelites to kill them all...even the little babies.  I would gather from all that, that Jesus doesn't have a problem with corporal punishment...seeing as how he flogged the money lenders himself.

Jesus has no problem with Corporate Punishment.

Also very good point, I understand what you're saying thought about it actually myself; somehow I conveniently separate God and Jesus on the topic but for good reason, I think... God the almighty the alpha and the omega is there on that side and in the earlier days then years later Jesus is here and he's on this side, we hear that Jesus is the son of God and also Jesus is God but Jesus said I am the way, or through me or what have you...

I think there might be a justification in God's orders to kill, knowing there's good and evil sometimes killing had to take place to get to the good and to accomplish ehat direction God intended them to go in which ultimatly affects every living person and snilmal today; after all God did write the  10 commandments and one of them states tho shall not kill, when God ordered killings it was also done in the being through God not Jesus. God has armies therefore my guess is we need to know right from wrong and take arms against invading nations when need be. 

God is for it but ONLY when necessary that included testing the will  Abraham and then God saw that he was true to him and then the sheep arrived and therefore he did not need to  Sacrifice his son. But Jesus is not.

This is how I decipher it, If that makes any sense : )

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Piney
Just now, Sherapy said:

Like a right of passage? What does this do help them become resilient, robust, adaptable better able to deal with the inevitable and unpredictable of life?

It teaches them to stand on their own feet without outside assistance. Even if they need a "imaginary friend" to help. 

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Piney said:

It teaches them to stand on their own feet without outside assistance. Even if they need a "imaginary friend" to help. 

Gotcha, why would this be abusive? It is interesting thanks for sharing. It sounds a lot like when I went from no kid to my first kid and was on my own, feet to the fire type of thing. 
My youngest joined the military for a right of passage type of experience, he wanted to see what he was made of but in the military they have their friends as a support system fairly quickly. Does anyone love it?

We have a very posh private school in CA that has its students get dropped off in an unknown location given a few things to survive, a map and no cell phone, no help, just a 9th grader on their own for a week finding their own food and surviving. In 1Oth grade it is for two weeks. My best friends kid did it every year, she wanted her kid to do it to keep her humble and not think she was entitled because they are rich. She also sent her to Thailand loaded her backpack with antibiotics to scrub toilets for a week and sleep outside one year same reason. 

Did you do a vision quest?

Edited by Sherapy

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joc
21 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

This is how I decipher it, If that makes any sense : )

I'm glad all that made sense to you... :)  You lost me with justifying God's orders to kill...and God wrote the ten commandments...you know...thou shalt not kill...

 

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