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Sherapy

Would Jesus condone corporal punishment?

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Mr Walker
5 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Like I say. I'm not disagreeing with the care factor. I've done what you have too, taken a couple ratbags under my wing and steered them. I got a call from one one day swinging in a hammock in the Bahamas. I was pretty stoked. But I can't put into words how tall I felt when my son surprised us all on his last day of primary when he decided to give the whole school and sang them a song. And it was great, the entire hall got right into it. It's unexplainable. Buckets of dopamine.

I'd give theory lessons to my apprentices that struggled with college at my home after work. And yes, you've done a good thing there. I might disagree on your view on corporal punishment but I don't know your situation so I won't comment further. But I'm glad you were there for those kids. I can't explain what I'm talking about, like I say, I don't know if what I'm talking about is chemical. I suspect some genetic thing is going on there too. But I don't expect you to believe it if you find my claim to be unbelievable. I'm happy to say agree to disagree on this 

Ive never physically punished a child/teenager,  and only a few times had to physically restrain one 

Thats precisely because of two factors 

These kids were all neglected and unloved when they came to us 

The y needed love  consistency and discipline, but physical punishment would have been both unfair and ineffective by then  

Second these were not JUST my children  whom i had had since birth and had established a working relationship/understanding   with.

For them punishment might not have been seen as an act of love. as i saw it as a child  They had often been inconsistently punished without any love at all 

For most of them, from school age to adulthood the most effective method of discipline was the knowledge that we loved them unconditionally.That our home ws their home as long as the y needed it BUT that there were rules for the safety of all  There were often up to 8-10 different people living in our home, with ages ranging from  birth  to 96.

No one was allowed behaviours (on our property)  which risked harm or hurt to  themselves or anyone else . And thus; violence,  psychological or emotional abuse, including control or put downs,   and drugs/alcohol, were not allowed  The consequence of ongoing breaking of rules was having to leave our home and care 

Only ONE made that choice, aged about 22, taking his teenage partner and  2 young children with him. 

Perhaps, not coincidentally, he was also the only one we lost (to suicide when he was 26) 

 

My point was that, when done with love and without emotion, corporal punishment can be highly effective and positive,  as it has proven in our family for centuries, and in many other homes  There are dangers but these are not as great as with using psychological means to control kids (like isolation or withdrawal of  affection)  or failing to teach a child how to discipline its own thoughts and behaviours 

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Mr Walker
On 1/21/2020 at 12:53 PM, Sherapy said:

It sounds like you helped family members that had issues, you really didn’t legally foster care. 
 

Any family member can take in family members, it is unheard of where I am that you could get a kid relative or not into school without documentation. 

I was pointing out that current govt policy recognises and allows informal care of a child WITHOUT  govt intervention or rules (Thats why i brought up the family bit)  However it is also allowed informally for non family members where there is a cultural or community connection  Thus an aboriginal family can take in any other aboriginal child under kinship rules  even where the y are not related. It is actually encouraged to  keep cultural identity  You can do this formally, with govt intervention and assistance, or informally, without either.  

Until recently little or no documentation was required.These days you need birth certificates and vaccination  certificates etc., but you don't have t prove you are a guardian of a child  UNLESS there is a court order giving custody to one parent and denying access to another   Thus, in very rare modern cases, one parent might be denied access to a child's school reports as a part of a custody ruling  or  be prevented from entering the school grounds if there was a specific intervention/protection order 

Maybe country schools are different, but i can (and do)  still wander around any school ground at large without being questioned or challenged.  Many of the teachers (and indeed principals) a t all the nearby schools are ether ex students of mine or relatives of mine :) )I never had to provide any paper work to enrol kids a t school or take them to a doctor or hospital but then  every one knew us, knew we were caring for the kids, and simply accepted it.  I just put my name down as guardian (Used for all non official parenting ) and that was that.    Still worked in 2013/14

That is also the case at all the nearby hospitals and doctor surgeries 

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Sherapy
58 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The argument was not about baby attachment but parental attachment.

MANY parents never attach at all 

And attachment requires not just biological drivers but commitment and desire to attach and bond .

A parent  who chooses to bond with an intellectual/cognitive emotional bond with a child, will have more powerful and complete attachment than one who relies on, or only has, the biological attachment 

No its not a few Its 10s of thousands in australia   and 100s of thousands in America. JUST going by children who have been abandoned by their parents or have been placed in state care

I am walker the 21st century man. ie one who understands the nature of emotions, and their importance, but choses responses  which are productive and safe for myself and for others, rather than just be driven  by evolved biological/chemical drivers found in all primates and neolithic human beings .

 

 

Modern america

quote

4.1 million child maltreatment referral reports received.1

Child abuse reports involved 7.5 million children.1

3.2 million children received prevention & post-response services.1

142,301 children received foster care services.1

74.9% of victims are neglected.1 

18.3% of victims are physically abused.1

8.6% of victims are sexually abused.1

7.1% of victims are psychologically maltreated.1

Highest rate of child abuse in children under age one (25.3% per 1,000).1

Annual estimate: 1,720 children died from abuse and neglect in 2017.1,

Who abused and neglected children? 

83.4% (More than four-fifths) of perpetrators were between the ages of 18 and 44 years.1

54.1% (More than one-half) of perpetrators were women

 

Almost five children die every day from child abuse.1,2

Seventy-two (71.8%) percent of all child fatalities were younger than 3 years old.1

80.1% of child fatalities involve at least one parent.1

Of the children who died, 75.4% suffered neglect.1

Of the children who died, 41.6% suffered physical abuse either exclusively or in combination with another maltreatment type.1 

49.6% of children who die from child abuse are under one year.1

Boys had a higher child fatality rate than girls (2.68 boys & 2.02 girls per 100,000)1

Almost 65,000 children are sexually abused.1

More than 90% of juvenile sexual abuse victims know their perpetrator.6

Estimated that between 50-60% of maltreatment fatalities are not recorded on death certificates.5

Child abuse crosses all socioeconomic and educational levels, religions, ethnic and cultural groups.1

 

https://americanspcc.org/child-abuse-statistics/

I am all to familiar with abuse. 
I was one of the kids you fostered, I was fortunate to have a family member step in. 
 

My two sisters didn’t fare well in foster care like you provided, not for lack of caring loving foster care parents sadly sometimes love and care isn’t enough, in a perfect world my mom should have gotten help, but she refused.This would have been the best solution.  It is hard on kids to not be with their parents. As crappy as a parent is the kids still love them. I attribute this to the attachment. 

I think foster care works the best when everyone works together to get the parents functioning. 
Here in America it is stressed and Foster Care givers are trained to understand the attachment bond. 
 

It is so hard on a kid to be in foster care, typically all routes are pursued to have them with family. You have to qualify to be a foster care giver here, Thank goodness. It is a intense process too. You can’t have tons of kids either. We have a limit.

https://www.adoptuskids.org/adoption-and-foster-care/how-to-adopt-and-foster/state-information/california#foster-requirements

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I was pointing out that current govt policy recognises and allows informal care of a child WITHOUT  govt intervention or rules (Thats why i brought up the family bit)  However it is also allowed informally for non family members where there is a cultural or community connection  Thus an aboriginal family can take in any other aboriginal child under kinship rules  even where the y are not related. It is actually encouraged to  keep cultural identity  You can do this formally, with govt intervention and assistance, or informally, without either.  

Until recently little or no documentation was required.These days you need birth certificates and vaccination  certificates etc., but you don't have t prove you are a guardian of a child  UNLESS there is a court order giving custody to one parent and denying access to another   Thus, in very rare modern cases, one parent might be denied access to a child's school reports as a part of a custody ruling  or  be prevented from entering the school grounds if there was a specific intervention/protection order 

Maybe country schools are different, but i can (and do)  still wander around any school ground at large without being questioned or challenged.  Many of the teachers (and indeed principals) a t all the nearby schools are ether ex students of mine or relatives of mine :) )I never had to provide any paper work to enrol kids a t school or take them to a doctor or hospital but then  every one knew us, knew we were caring for the kids, and simply accepted it.  I just put my name down as guardian (Used for all non official parenting ) and that was that.    Still worked in 2013/14

That is also the case at all the nearby hospitals and doctor surgeries 

I don’t know, in a big city like I live in one must have the appropriate documentation and legal guardianship. No one gets into school without it. 

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I am all to familiar with abuse. 
I was one of the kids you fostered, I was fortunate to have a family member step in. 
 

My two sisters didn’t fare well in foster care like you provided, not for lack of caring loving foster care parents sadly sometimes love and care isn’t enough, in a perfect world my mom should have gotten help, but she refused.This would have been the best solution.  It is hard on kids to not be with their parents. As crappy as a parent is the kids still love them. I attribute this to the attachment. 

I think foster care works the best when everyone works together to get the parents functioning. 
Here in America it is stressed and Foster Care givers are trained to understand the attachment bond. 
 

It is so hard on a kid to be in foster care, typically all routes are pursued to have them with family. You have to qualify to be a foster care giver here, Thank goodness. It is a intense process too. You can’t have tons of kids either. We have a limit.

https://www.adoptuskids.org/adoption-and-foster-care/how-to-adopt-and-foster/state-information/california#foster-requirements

 

Its strange then that you dont get it 

From your posts it seems that your grandmother became your mother

Your grandmother demonstrated the love  that your mother could not .

Are you saying that your grandmother's love and care for you was somehow less than that of your biological mother?  It certainly doesn't seem that way from your past posts.

I agree that the best solution is two biological parents; second best one biological parent 

BUT where the parents reject or simply cannot love and care for a child It is the love and care which needs to be replaced 

The importance of biological parents is largely a cultural thing.

In some cultures most children are cared for by people other than their parents, and this is increasingly the case in modern western society, where children from infancy are put into professional care for most of their waking hours  

We cant get enough peole prepared to formally foster in Australia

formal adoption is almost non existent

quote

 

310 adoptions were finalised in Australia in 2018–19, of which 82% were of Australian children and 18% were intercountry. The majority of adoptions finalised were known child adoptions (211, or 68%) and, of these, 67% (142) were carer (known child) adoptions. Overall, there has been a 64% decline in finalised adoptions in Australia in the 25-year period between 1994–95 to 2018–19. However, since the low for the period of 278 adoptions in 2015–16, there has been a rise of 12%

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/adoptions/adoptions-australia-2018-19/contents/table-of-contents

 

There are about 50000 children in official out of home care There are more than this fostered without official recognition, although those figures are almost impossible to verify, by their nature.   

In australia there are for example  over 270 young peole under 25 who are unpaid/unofficial  carers for someone else  including younger children .

quote

Young carers are people up to 25 years old who provide unpaid care and support to a family member or friend with a disability, a physical or mental illness, a substance dependency, or who is aged.

There are 272,000 young carers in Australia. The person they care for may be a parent, partner, sibling, their own child, other relative or friend.

https://www.carersaustralia.com.au/about-carers/young-carers2/

 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Habitat
5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The importance of biological parents is largely a cultural thing.

It is more a case of being a genetic stake-holder, I think. Many people do see their children as a "little me",or an extension of themselves. Which they are, in many ways.
 

Edited by Habitat

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I don’t know, in a big city like I live in one must have the appropriate documentation and legal guardianship. No one gets into school without it. 

Quite possibly that is so. It would  probably also be required here, where no one knew the people involved.

In a sense however  documentation is easier to forge/ fake these days, than it is  to fool people who have known you all your life, or worked with you for 30 years  

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Mr Walker
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It is more a case of being a genetic stake-holder, I think. Many people do see their children as a "little me",or an extension of themselves. Which they are, in many ways.
 

There may be that as well, although it never mattered to me. All and every child is my child, in a very real sense, and every human is me. 

 Genetics does become important for medical and marriage purposes

Ive traced our entire family tree back into the 1500s on my dad's side in scotland.

My mother's side goes back (and is recorded,  unbroken)  to 1066, at least,  to France and William the conqueror 

So i know and understand the importance of family lineage 

While i dont have any biological kids, and that doesn't worry me, my sisters and brother all do, and there are many other cousins ( I see  all my siblings and their kids almost every week, and spend about 10 hours with them, in total, each week  

Thus our family line will continue. but more importantly the family as a unit will continue as a close knit entity. We have a mix of family relationships going back over 100 years eg I play modern board games each week with nephews and great nephews.  In the eighties we (my wife and i)  played games  ( including dungeons and dragons)  with their parents.

  In the fifties our parents played card games together. pre ww1 our grandparents played crib together. Ie there is a total of 5 generations who have played games with each other,   on a weekly basis, going back over 100 years

To me, at least, that is more significant than any genetic relationships      

 

 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Its strange then that you dont get it 

From your posts it seems that your grandmother became your mother

Your grandmother demonstrated the love  that your mother could not .

Are you saying that your grandmother's love and care for you was somehow less than that of your biological mother?  It certainly doesn't seem that way from your past posts.

I agree that the best solution is two biological parents; second best one biological parent 

BUT where the parents reject or simply cannot love and care for a child It is the love and care which needs to be replaced 

The importance of biological parents is largely a cultural thing.

In some cultures most children are cared for by people other than their parents, and this is increasingly the case in modern western society, where children from infancy are put into professional care for most of their waking hours  

We cant get enough peole prepared to formally foster in Australia

formal adoption is almost non existent

quote

 

310 adoptions were finalised in Australia in 2018–19, of which 82% were of Australian children and 18% were intercountry. The majority of adoptions finalised were known child adoptions (211, or 68%) and, of these, 67% (142) were carer (known child) adoptions. Overall, there has been a 64% decline in finalised adoptions in Australia in the 25-year period between 1994–95 to 2018–19. However, since the low for the period of 278 adoptions in 2015–16, there has been a rise of 12%

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/adoptions/adoptions-australia-2018-19/contents/table-of-contents

 

There are about 50000 children in official out of home care There are more than this fostered without official recognition, although those figures are almost impossible to verify, by their nature.   

In australia there are for example  over 270 young peole under 25 who are unpaid/unofficial  carers for someone else  including younger children .

quote

Young carers are people up to 25 years old who provide unpaid care and support to a family member or friend with a disability, a physical or mental illness, a substance dependency, or who is aged.

There are 272,000 young carers in Australia. The person they care for may be a parent, partner, sibling, their own child, other relative or friend.

https://www.carersaustralia.com.au/about-carers/young-carers2/

 

 

No, my grandmother was not seeking to replace my mother, or be my mother. She was my grandmother our relationship was our own. She loved me as her beloved granddaughter. She would say as she was taught by the Psychologist not to lie about my mom or dismiss the abuse but to give it a voice in a way that was conducive to my growth. She basically, would say your mom is sick, with help she can recover your feelings are valid but she is your mom and let’s hope she gets better, in the meantime let’s focus on getting you the help you need. There were times I was harsh about me mom she guided with empathy. It is what my grandmother taught me and that she got help is what helped me. She was humble she knew where she needed guidance and got it. Her love was a given she was my grams.

There is a very fine line regardless of the nature or quality of the biological relationship this is still the parent and the child has a bond with them. To often, the line is blurred, those without kids of their own seek to fulfill their own lacks and seek to replace the parent and the child isn’t given an environment to deal with the emotions and loss of the bio parent, never forget you put down their parent you attack their fragile identity, It is the reason Fosters are screened  and trained  and offered  insights and directions on how to navigate this. Well meaning lacking in experience fosters can do a lot of harm and do in the guise of “well meaning” they can do more harm then good. No matter how atrocious the bio relationship is the caregiver must use kid gloves and never belittle or demean the parent.
My grandmother followed  the guidance of a therapist, this was serious stuff. I truly am a success story of what is possible with the right guidance. It wasn’t just about replacing love it was about giving me the tools to navigate my reality and the unwavering patience  and unending compassion to do so.
 


 

I actually know both sides of how well meaning families cause harm not even intending too. I dealt with this on my mothers side my grandmother and grandfather, fortunately I had the skills to give a voice to it. I was able to articulate that when they talked about my dad whether it was true or not it was like attacking me too. Luckily, they listened.  


I have advocated my life for the kids like me, while I think you did your best and have major respect for you and am proud of you for having the sense  to not hit those kids and for taking on such a serious endeavor. Our voices together may help, I deeply  appreciate your candidness and bravery in even talking so openly to me, I am tough on this subject. 
 

For me, this isn't a competition or judgement this Is about how can we really help. We can always be better. 
 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

No, my grandmother was not seeking to replace my mother, or be my mother. She was my grandmother our relationship was our own. She loved me as her beloved granddaughter. She would say as she was taught by the Psychologist not to lie about my mom or dismiss the abuse but to give it a voice in a way that was conducive to my growth. She basically, would say your mom is sick, with help she can recover your feelings are valid but she is your mom and let’s hope she gets better, in the meantime let’s focus on getting you the help you need. There were times I was harsh about me mom she guided with empathy. It is what my grandmother taught me and that she got help is what helped me. She was humble she knew where she needed guidance and got it. Her love was a given she was my grams.

There is a very fine line regardless of the nature or quality of the biological relationship this is still the parent and the child has a bond with them. To often, the line is blurred, those without kids of their own seek to fulfill their own lacks and seek to replace the parent and the child isn’t given an environment to deal with the emotions and loss of the bio parent, never forget you put down their parent you attack their fragile identity, It is the reason Fosters are screened  and trained  and offered  insights and directions on how to navigate this. Well meaning lacking in experience fosters can do a lot of harm and do in the guise of “well meaning” they can do more harm then good. No matter how atrocious the bio relationship is the caregiver must use kid gloves and never belittle or demean the parent.
My grandmother followed  the guidance of a therapist, this was serious stuff. I truly am a success story of what is possible with the right guidance. It wasn’t just about replacing love it was about giving me the tools to navigate my reality and the unwavering patience  and unending compassion to do so.
 


 

I actually know both sides of how well meaning families cause harm not even intending too. I dealt with this on my mothers side my grandmother and grandfather, fortunately I had the skills to give a voice to it. I was able to articulate that when they talked about my dad whether it was true or not it was like attacking me too. Luckily, they listened.  


I have advocated my life for the kids like me, while I think you did your best and have major respect for you and am proud of you for having the sense  to not hit those kids and for taking on such a serious endeavor. Our voices together may help, I deeply  appreciate your candidness and bravery in even talking so openly to me, I am tough on this subject. 
 

For me, this isn't a competition or judgement this Is about how can we really help. We can always be better. 
 

 

I didnt say your grandmother was attempting to replace your mother. I said your grandmother who was NOT your biological parent demonstrated to you the form of love that a biological parent should have shown if your theories are right  How you felt about them both, and YOUR love for each is your business, alone.  

I never put down anyone but i am also totally honest with people Its one reason I am respected and loved. People can trust me 

Most of the kids we raised hated and continue to hate their parents.

We didn't criticise them and indeed may have offered some explanations for their parents behaviours such as their youth and own difficult childhoods.

But we gave them the love and care their parents would not.

  I, in return, have always respected your parenting, even if i see it as one of many successful ways to parent  You did an exceptional job and devoted far more time to the role than some parents are able or prepared to do. 

 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I didnt say your grandmother was attempting to replace your mother. I said your grandmother who was NOT your biological parent demonstrated to you the form of love that a biological parent should have shown if your theories are right  How you felt about them both, and YOUR love for each is your business, alone.  

I never put down anyone but i am also totally honest with people Its one reason I am respected and loved. People can trust me 

Most of the kids we raised hated and continue to hate their parents.

We didn't criticise them and indeed may have offered some explanations for their parents behaviours such as their youth and own difficult childhoods.

But we gave them the love and care their parents would not.

  I, in return, have always respected your parenting, even if i see it as one of many successful ways to parent  You did an exceptional job and devoted far more time to the role than some parents are able or prepared to do. 

 

I loved both my mom and my grandmother. 
 


 

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Sherapy
On 1/18/2020 at 2:31 PM, Habitat said:

Blood is thicker than water, as they say, and generally people are better under the care of their biological parents, but not always, and in some cases, definitely not. I think I have more faith in outright adoption that foster situations, which are quite common, I don't know that the motives of some foster parents are completely removed from the monetary, but presumably adoptive parents are. It is a dire situation for any child, to not have at least one person with their interests truly at heart.

It is a tough subject, I can understand your concerns.

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Sherapy

@Mr Walker, @psyche101

“As i said, i find no evidence in anything you wrote, that you ever felt anything more powerful than my feelings. Your feelings for your biological children may have been more powerful than for your non biological children but  you cant assume it is so for everyone.

I sense a deep affection and a form of love  for your non biological children, but not the sort of love i felt for mine, where i would have died for them, or given anything for them. You reserved tha t feeling for your biological children. I did not (Walker).

I would like to address this, Mr. Walker where I see a difference between you and Psyche is the lack of intimacy and history that comes from being the biological father, you stress paying for things, meeting the material needs you rarely share anything about emotional support or the relationships you talk about how your emotions are kept in check, that emotions are only felt if appropriate and your biological responses are regulated by you. ( even though this is not even possible). Even saying this I still think you gave your best and did have an affection for those you helped and I think you did a good thing, but that you don’t have the experience of the biological dad and you yourself say this too. You never talk about the relationships other than if it in someway brags about you. 

Where as Psyche shares the relationship he has with his son, a lifetime together, the adoration, the wonder and deep closeness he has for his son, he shares his son through his eyes, he said his son has seen him perform on many stages all over the place, this tells me he spends time with his son, he shares his life and passion for music with his son and his son shares it with him  this  boy is the apple of his eye, he never once mentions the material care of his son, as parents this is a given, it is the least Important part, any functional parent will do without for their kids, yet, we don’t define ourselves as parents solely by providing for them. We define our parenting by the quality of the relationships, the investment in the strength of the bond.  That is what I don’t hear from you and I do observe in Psyche he shared the story of how his son surprised his school with a performance and it was psyches proudest moment, I actually know the feeling as a parent, what he was sharing is testimony of the profound bond that he and his son have nurtured and share.  I can tell Psyche is an awesome loving Dad who worships his child and gives of his time and himself including, he would change anything about himself, any view, any practice, any behavior  to better serve and be better for his kids too, And he shines the spotlights on his kids, not himself. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker
12 hours ago, Sherapy said:

@Mr Walker, @psyche101

“As i said, i find no evidence in anything you wrote, that you ever felt anything more powerful than my feelings. Your feelings for your biological children may have been more powerful than for your non biological children but  you cant assume it is so for everyone.

I sense a deep affection and a form of love  for your non biological children, but not the sort of love i felt for mine, where i would have died for them, or given anything for them. You reserved tha t feeling for your biological children. I did not (Walker).

I would like to address this, Mr. Walker where I see a difference between you and Psyche is the lack of intimacy and history that comes from being the biological father, you stress paying for things, meeting the material needs you rarely share anything about emotional support or the relationships you talk about how your emotions are kept in check, that emotions are only felt if appropriate and your biological responses are regulated by you. ( even though this is not even possible). Even saying this I still think you gave your best and did have an affection for those you helped and I think you did a good thing, but that you don’t have the experience of the biological dad and you yourself say this too. You never talk about the relationships other than if it in someway brags about you. 

Where as Psyche shares the relationship he has with his son, a lifetime together, the adoration, the wonder and deep closeness he has for his son, he shares his son through his eyes, he said his son has seen him perform on many stages all over the place, this tells me he spends time with his son, he shares his life and passion for music with his son and his son shares it with him  this  boy is the apple of his eye, he never once mentions the material care of his son, as parents this is a given, it is the least Important part, any functional parent will do without for their kids, yet, we don’t define ourselves as parents solely by providing for them. We define our parenting by the quality of the relationships, the investment in the strength of the bond.  That is what I don’t hear from you and I do observe in Psyche he shared the story of how his son surprised his school with a performance and it was psyches proudest moment, I actually know the feeling as a parent, what he was sharing is testimony of the profound bond that he and his son have nurtured and share.  I can tell Psyche is an awesome loving Dad who worships his child and gives of his time and himself including, he would change anything about himself, any view, any practice, any behavior  to better serve and be better for his kids too, And he shines the spotlights on his kids, not himself. 

Again you are allowing your prejudices and beliefs about me to determine your position and you  are also cherry picking  certain elements of my character and ignoring others

Intimacy and caring are choices we make You can make them as a biological parent or a non biological parent.They are not innate or  a given for either form of parenting 

My posts explained that i expressed my love and care by being a parent, meeting the child's needs, both physical and emotional/psychological.

If you  missed that, i can only wonder why.  

Ive told you a dozen times, i embrace and encourage positive emotions. Love, compassion, altruism, care, protection etc., are all positive emotions which i have in spades  I express them in words in touch and by actions to help others  So when a person is in grief or another form of pain   i will speak words to comfort. i will hug or embrace then as appropriate, and i will do anything i can to help them.

As i said I heard nothing in Psyche's words which i do not feel for my children and for their children   A word like adoration is only a label it  is harder to explain the actual physical and psychological/cognitive sensations of love I am sure you have felt them for your boys.Well i have felt and feel exactly the same sensations for my children Why do you find this so hard to accept?  

There is a similar, but slightly different, deep love and attachment for my wife, which i think you do accept   It also is, in part  chemical/biological, but much more so a choice about how i feel  and behave  I was hit by the thunderbolt the instant i laid eyes on her but by the time we married, 4 years later, my love was a construct of mind  more than just a physical desire or attraction  eg I also loved her nature character, values,  etc., which i did not know when i first saw her,  and so was able to make a commitment to her for life, and have no problems sticking to it 

Given the nature of our kids, they have not had a lot of successes in their lives. However i have celebrated the ones they achieved and had those feelings of pride and joy for them Sometimes that may be something as minor as completing a whole year successfully in the same school, Sometimes it may be as major as the birth of their first child. 

More commonly i have been stopping them commit suicide or helping them after an attempt   or helping them with relationships, motherhood and other concerns    

These are the products of children totally abandoned by both their biological parents and facing that rejection into their teens and adult lives They tend to believe they are not worthy of love and that there is something wrong with them. One of my roles is to show them otherwise. 

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Sherapy
20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Again you are allowing your prejudices and beliefs about me to determine your position and you  are also cherry picking  certain elements of my character and ignoring others

Intimacy and caring are choices we make You can make them as a biological parent or a non biological parent.They are not innate or  a given for either form of parenting 

My posts explained that i expressed my love and care by being a parent, meeting the child's needs, both physical and emotional/psychological.

If you  missed that, i can only wonder why.  

Ive told you a dozen times, i embrace and encourage positive emotions. Love, compassion, altruism, care, protection etc., are all positive emotions which i have in spades  I express them in words in touch and by actions to help others  So when a person is in grief or another form of pain   i will speak words to comfort. i will hug or embrace then as appropriate, and i will do anything i can to help them.

As i said I heard nothing in Psyche's words which i do not feel for my children and for their children   A word like adoration is only a label it  is harder to explain the actual physical and psychological/cognitive sensations of love I am sure you have felt them for your boys.Well i have felt and feel exactly the same sensations for my children Why do you find this so hard to accept?  

There is a similar, but slightly different, deep love and attachment for my wife, which i think you do accept   It also is, in part  chemical/biological, but much more so a choice about how i feel  and behave  I was hit by the thunderbolt the instant i laid eyes on her but by the time we married, 4 years later, my love was a construct of mind  more than just a physical desire or attraction  eg I also loved her nature character, values,  etc., which i did not know when i first saw her,  and so was able to make a commitment to her for life, and have no problems sticking to it 

Given the nature of our kids, they have not had a lot of successes in their lives. However i have celebrated the ones they achieved and had those feelings of pride and joy for them Sometimes that may be something as minor as completing a whole year successfully in the same school, Sometimes it may be as major as the birth of their first child. 

More commonly i have been stopping them commit suicide or helping them after an attempt   or helping them with relationships, motherhood and other concerns    

These are the products of children totally abandoned by both their biological parents and facing that rejection into their teens and adult lives They tend to believe they are not worthy of love and that there is something wrong with them. One of my roles is to show them otherwise. 

“Second these were not JUST my children  whom i had had since birth and had established a working relationship/understanding  with“ (Walker).

 

This is the difference and you do get what we are saying that there was a difference and you say it yourself. Even if the kid is abused, there is a bond with the parent.

 

The person who is struggling with this is you, you even agree that you did not have the experience of a biological parent.

I think you loved those kids and did your best and good for you. I do get you too, so does psyche we both have helped kids and  we both say the same thing we helped and it was rewarding yet the love and caring is more of an affection, it wasn’t the love I have for my own. . But, it is just as important and viable. 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy

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Mr Walker
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

“Second these were not JUST my children  whom i had had since birth and had established a working relationship/understanding  with“ (Walker).

 

This is the difference and you do get what we are saying that there was a difference and you say it yourself. Even if the kid is abused, there is a bond with the parent.

 

The person who is struggling with this is you, you even agree that you did not have the experience of a biological parent.

I think you loved those kids and did your best and good for you. I do get you too, so does psyche we both have helped kids and   we both say we helped yet the love and caring is more of an affection, it wasn’t the love I have for my own. But, it is just as important and viable. 

 

Both Psyche and I think you 

I took into consideration  the back ground of these kids. That didnt make me love them less. Indeed it gave me a greater love for them because the y had never been loved and the y badly needed it.

  I decided that physical punishment would not be effective and would not be understood as love by them  It had nothing to do with their other parents who had abandoned them and rejected them Indeed despite  our attempts to  get these families back together, the children remain hostile to their biological parents, to the point, in some cases, of hatred and anger 

My comment thus meant that i had to consider how some of these kids had been treated and abused by their biological parents, something  which would not have been the case if we had had them from birth

For most of these kids and their parents there is no bond. No love no compassion and no connection. This is the case into their 20s and thirties and even when they have kids who are the grandchildren of their parents. The y wont let their kids near their parents for fear they will also be damaged, or their parents will try to  "steal"  the child, either physically or psychologically   In two cases this has actually happened  In one it required legal action to get the child back from  the grandmother  In another it has taken over a year so far for the mother to undo the damage her mother did when she got hold of the child for 6 months. 

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Sherapy
13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I took into consideration  the back ground of these kids. That didnt make me love them less. Indeed it gave me a greater love for them because the y had never been loved and the y badly needed it.

  I decided that physical punishment would not be effective and would not be understood as love by them  It had nothing to do with their other parents who had abandoned them and rejected them Indeed despite  our attempts to  get these families back together, the children remain hostile to their biological parents, to the point, in some cases, of hatred and anger 

My comment thus meant that i had to consider how some of these kids had been treated and abused by their biological parents, something  which would not have been the case if we had had them from birth

For most of these kids and their parents there is no bond. No love no compassion and no connection. This is the case into their 20s and thirties and even when they have kids who are the grandchildren of their parents. The y wont let their kids near their parents for fear they will also be damaged, or their parents will try to  "steal"  the child, either physically or psychologically   In two cases this has actually happened  In one it required legal action to get the child back from  the grandmother  In another it has taken over a year so far for the mother to undo the damage her mother did when she got hold of the child for 6 months. 

Walls, you are beating a dead horse. I think you demonstrated love and caring for those kids. I accept this. Is it the equivalent if biological, you can’t answer that in all honesty as you didn’t have that experience. Your rules remember, you preach experience is everything. 
 

You need to have a rule of two, if you have posted the same argument twice that is enough more than that is overkill.

Relax, we believe you loved those kids. Breathe 
 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker
On 1/25/2020 at 12:51 PM, Sherapy said:

Walls, you are beating a dead horse. I think you demonstrated love and caring for those kids. I accept this. Is it the equivalent if biological, you can’t answer that in all honesty as you didn’t have that experience. Your rules remember, you preach experience is everything. 
 

You need to have a rule of two, if you have posted the same argument twice that is enough more than that is overkill.

Relax, we believe you loved those kids. Breathe 
 

 

No; you deny i can love them as a natural parent loves their kids 

Love is neither biological nor connected to blood relationships. It is a construct we build and maintain and we can do so equally for biological relatives or a person on   the other side of the world.

  I think your problem of perception might be that you don't realise this and think love is something biological which can only be applied to someone close to you  (and the closer the biological connection the "greater" the love.)

  And i always Know I am correct when you tell me to stop arguing and  calm down :)  It means  that I  am getting too close to truth, for you. 

I can answer it because i know the nature of love, both then chemical/biological impulse some think is love, and the real love which s a cognitive construct we learn how to have, then choose when and how to apply.

Ive never read anyone here or elsewhere describe the love of a parent for a child in any way which i do not recognise as my feelings for non biological children.

  if you can explain/describe  something you believe is unique to biological parents, i might believe you, but no one can. It is a myth, which makes biological  parents feel good and virtuous.

If you cant feel, for other children, the same love you feel for   your biological children, that is something within you, but not within me.  I would say it is a limitation on your abilty to love but that would be unfair 

Of course you believe your love for your boys is some how special. It is how you are evolved to feel/believe. 

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