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Sherapy

Would Jesus condone corporal punishment?

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Paranoid Android

  

6 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

We are all punished!

But No... I didnt day I don't believe in the death penalty, I'm 50/50 there, if there's 100% proof I am ok with that... but then again we are tought to forgive so I'm back to 50/50. I am ok with war as long as we didn't start it unless we're protecting ourselves and for human right cases.

Complicated isn't it...

And I didn't say you believed in the death penalty. Our conversation was about Jesus and whether he would condone smacking a child. You say no, and used the woman caught in adultery as evidence of this. I was simply stating that because Jesus had something to say on the death penalty (assuming he did say it, like was noted it is a later insertion into John's gospel) is no reason to assume that he had the same view regarding other forms of punishment not involving death. 

  

6 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

too each his own when it comes to raising children and back handing them, there are other ways to discipline a child, that's for sure!

I think the problem begins when true abuse happens. And when a slap across the face turns into much more then it should for example when your 14 yr old daughter tells you no shes not coming home until midnight, while shes screaming and cussing and calling you names, when you want her home at 10:30 suddenly becomes abuse now days is a bit ridiculous, parents are put in jail, the kids on cloud 9 laughing all the way... there's major problems drawing a line because all situations are different.

I was punished in many ways as a chilf, right or wrong I lived through it and didn't turn out so bad after all... 

Definitely better ways. I'm against over-legislation in general, so if your hypothetical scenario ever took place I'd think it ridiculous to say having a curfew is abuse, but sadly that's the way we seem to be going sometimes.

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Piney
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I have always wanted to go to a sweat lodge, I talked to someone like you when my sister died. 

How hot does it get inside a sweat lodge.

Depends on the people doing it and what your doing.

Don't be doing any Pan-Indian or Newage sweat lodge. Those people are clueless and get people hurt. :hmm:

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Debra F. II
3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I think you are right the more I look into this the more  I see there has always been those that see child rearing as an incredible opportunity for growth and those that think punishing is the gold standard in teaching kids.

I think encouragement is way of the wise. I have experienced both approaches and  hands down I think the way my grandmother used empathy and encouragement and love made me want to be a better person. With my Mom, I felt resentment towards her she robbed me of being a carefree happy kid, childhood was exhausting with her there was never anything positive, or hopeful, I just wanted it over with as soon as possible, I was 7 and had enough, I would run away and they would bring me back . Ugh, Thank god I had my grandmother she gave me back my childhood and the wonder of being a kid. 

I know had a few friends in grade school and high school who were never punished in the manner I was,  and also a sibling and i can think of a few others.... What I witnessed was them only getting really good at manipulating, lieing, cheating and stealing, they got away with everything and continued to bevause7they knew there would be no precaution from it, and some of these people still are; a cpl of these people I can call really good con artists.

I'm not saying that all kids brought up like this turn into con artist's but from what I seen those kids only played the system and it taught them other things that I didnt dare do or learned. 

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Debra F. II
5 minutes ago, Piney said:

Depends on the people doing it and what your doing.

Don't be doing any Pan-Indian or Newage sweat lodge. Those people are clueless and get people hurt. :hmm:

Hot, hot HOT! sry don't mean to impose on the conversation but they are awesome! But I did make a mistake once, not sure what happened but I depleted myself of calcium and potassium which sent me to the hospital, about a day or two later for i.v's... I'd still do it again if I had the chance tho.

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Paranoid Android
27 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Robbie she didn’t say this this is my position, Within reason, age dependent, supervise when appropriate. 
 

I let my kids play at playgrounds etc. when they were little we assisted just enough to keep them safe.

That's why I asked for her input. I don't know what her stance is. It's a rather ambiguous phrase, and as it stands it's actually a phrase I fundamentally disagree with - the role of a parent is not to protect a child from as much harm as they can; at least, this is not the primary role of a parent. The primary role of a parent is to equip a child with tools to suitably help them navigate life. This by necessity includes some protection from harm and age appropriate boundaries. But I believe that if you only focus on protection then you can easily deprive a child of the necessary skills they would develop just by interacting with a world that includes a certain level of inherent danger already. 

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Debra F. II
50 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Accord to biblical teachings the Bible talks in great depth about corporal punishment, so in my opinion why would Jesus act any differently since this is the word of God. Also in effect God did the same thing by sending his son into this world to be executed for the purpose of forming a new religion based upon Jesus Christ also known today as the Christian Religion.

Here are some passages from the Bible that condone the use of corporal punishment.

1) Proverbs 13:24: Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

2) Proverbs 23:13-14

    13 - Do not withhold discipline from a child, if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.

    14 - If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. ( Sheol - The abode of the dead )

3) Ephesians 6:4: Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

4) Proverbs 10:13: On the lips of him who has understanding, wisdom is found but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense.

5) Timothy 3:4: He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,

6) Deuteronomy 21:18-21:  ( A Rebellious Son )

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Peace

I think this sums it up. Thank you!

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Piney
Just now, Debra F. II said:

Hot, hot HOT! sry don't mean to impose on the conversation but they are awesome! But I did make a mistake once, not sure what happened but I depleted myself of calcium and potassium which sent me to the hospital, about a day or two later for i.v's... I'd still do it again if I had the chance tho.

It was too hot, you stayed in too long and you never re-hydrated yourself. :no:

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Golden Duck
7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I decided to start a thread on this and would like to continue exploring the pros and cons of corporal punishment as outlined biblically.

Would Jesus if he existed condone corporal punishment? Why and Why not? 
 

@Mr Walker and @Festina Lente we can continue  our discussion from the Does Jesus exist thread. 
 

Quote

You simply cannot live your lives protecting a child from all harm, by removing the harm. 

You have to teach the child to  avoid the harm, itself. [sage advice]  (Walker).

“Please do give some examples of removing “harm”. This will be useful.  TY

Perhaps you misunderstood. I thought his post was quite clear.  (Festine Lemte).”

Thank you for the response but what are your examples of you cannot live your life protecting children from harm by removing them.

How would you teach a child to protect themselves from harm if not by removing them? 
 

A scenerio: a 3 year old child has been told that there are fire ants all over the front yard and his mother instructed him to watch out and then he was left  to play in the yard unsupervised, the little guy either  forgets or didn’t fully understand to begin with and then sits on a mound of fire ants and gets severely stung. The father a deeply religious man who advocates the use of corporal punishment spanks the boy for not following his instructions, his justification was his 3 year old was disobedient. 
 

My input is it was a failure on the part of the parents, this is a clear cut case of a 3 year old unsupervised and put into harms way. Few would place this kind of trust in a 3 year old. The best option would be to remove the child  from the harm altogether find a place to play that was safe, there would never be a reason to subject a little one to such harm and pain. 

 

The parent felt it was the responsibility of the child that as sad at it was the boy was disobedient and deserved to be punished using corporal punishment, that maybe next time he would listen.


 

What are your thoughts? What about Jesus would he condone this? 
 

All comments welcome.
 

 

The sting was THE lesson!  

I reckon my daughters wouldn't have gone near any creepy crawley when they were three years-old.  

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Festina
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

I know had a few friends in grade school and high school who were never punished in the manner I was,  and also a sibling and i can think of a few others.... What I witnessed was them only getting really good at manipulating, lieing, cheating and stealing, they got away with everything and continued to bevause7they knew there would be no precaution from it, and some of these people still are; a cpl of these people I can call really good con artists.

I'm not saying that all kids brought up like this turn into con artist's but from what I seen those kids only played the system and it taught them other things that I didnt dare do or learned. 

My father backhanded be thrice as a teenager, to be sure I thought I would die from exsanguination.  He had a bad temper.  He also smashed my Yamaha acoustic guitar over my head in one of his temper tantrums.  He replaced it with  a Gibson classical a few months later, all worked out well.  I forgave him, he got better and when he passed I was devastated.  I miss him. 

Just let it all go, be happy.  

There is an old Yiddish proverb, not verbatim but close enough ; If you think people have a better life than you you are mistaken.  It’s just that you don’t know them very well as everyone has **** in their lives.  

 

Edited by Festina Lente
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Debra F. II
15 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

  

And I didn't say you believed in the death penalty. Our conversation was about Jesus and whether he would condone smacking a child. You say no, and used the woman caught in adultery as evidence of this. I was simply stating that because Jesus had something to say on the death penalty (assuming he did say it, like was noted it is a later insertion into John's gospel) is no reason to assume that he had the same view regarding other forms of punishment not involving death. 

  

Definitely better ways. I'm against over-legislation in general, so if your hypothetical scenario ever took place I'd think it ridiculous to say having a curfew is abuse, but sadly that's the way we seem to be going sometimes.

I'm trying to come up with a good answer here, I don't think there are any, so I'm jumping around a bit trying to answer the question looking at all angles.

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Sherapy
16 minutes ago, Piney said:

Depends on the people doing it and what your doing.

Don't be doing any Pan-Indian or Newage sweat lodge. Those people are clueless and get people hurt. :hmm:

How hot does it get and how long can you stay in?

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Piney
Just now, Sherapy said:

How hot does it get and how long can you stay in?

It's not about that. It's about cleansing your body. I never timed myself and it's not a endurance test. When I'm all sweated out and my nose is running clear I jumped in the river.

But my lodge was burnt down years ago and I never built a new one. Hot showers work just fine. 

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Debra F. II
3 minutes ago, Piney said:

It was too hot, you stayed in too long and you never re-hydrated yourself. :no:

No it wasn't too hot, it was just right and we passed around some tea to drink all seats I participated in were 6 hrs. Which was pretty much the required time they requested us to stay in. Although there were a cpl people who didnt make it, I prep'd and fasted for three days prior water diet only then when finished we were served a native American soup, fruits and vegetables. It was nice the overall results were explainable.

Most likely but I'll ask anyway, have you  ever smoked ceremonial sage? ( and you probably know I'm not talking about Marijuana)  OH, what... funnnn.....  : )

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Debra F. II
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

It's not about that. It's about cleansing your body. I never timed myself and it's not a endurance test. When I'm all sweated out and my nose is running clear I jumped in the river.

But my lodge was burnt down years ago and I never built a new one. Hot showers work just fine. 

Sorry to hear about your lodge : ( you really should think about a new one, it will be a lost art soon, much sooner than it should be.

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OverSword
1 hour ago, Piney said:

Nope, the Empire did. Most of them were in Spain, Gaul and North Africa and Egypt had a large chunk (scholars)

Rome had nothing comparable to our middle class; the gulf between these two upper classesand the much larger lower classes was immense. However, as long as one was a freeborn Romancitizen there was at least a slight possibility of moving into the equestrian class through the acquisition of wealth.

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Sherapy
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

It's not about that. It's about cleansing your body. I never timed myself and it's not a endurance test. When I'm all sweated out and my nose is running clear I jumped in the river.

But my lodge was burnt down years ago and I never built a new one. Hot showers work just fine. 

I am just curious in comparison to hot yoga, it is typically heated to 117 and the class is 90 minutes. One just has to go in hydrated. I go 4 times a week or more if I can. I think it is the same idea right?

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Sherapy
4 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

No it wasn't too hot, it was just right and we passed around some tea to drink all seats I participated in were 6 hrs. Which was pretty much the required time they requested us to stay in. Although there were a cpl people who didnt make it, I prep'd and fasted for three days prior water diet only then when finished we were served a native American soup, fruits and vegetables. It was nice the overall results were explainable.

Most likely but I'll ask anyway, have you  ever smoked ceremonial sage? ( and you probably know I'm not talking about Marijuana)  OH, what... funnnn.....  : )

Hmmm interesting, so it must not be unbearable heat. 

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Piney
Just now, OverSword said:

Rome had nothing comparable to our middle class; the gulf between these two upper classesand the much larger lower classes was immense. However, as long as one was a freeborn Romancitizen there was at least a slight possibility of moving into the equestrian class through the acquisition of wealth.

Farmers, artisans, craftsman, food shop and cart owners, horse trainers. Hostel owners. Retired soldiers with their small holdings. 

Your thinking about after the rot set in and the Great Migrations- invasions. 

 

 

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Piney
9 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

Most likely but I'll ask anyway, have you  ever smoked ceremonial sage? ( and you probably know I'm not talking about Marijuana)  OH, what... funnnn.....  : )

Your not suppose to smoke it. :lol:

and no, Algonquians use red cedar for smudge. Sage smells like burning horse crap. :lol:

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Debra F. II
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Hmmm interesting, so it must not be unbearable heat. 

Well... lol kind of, what's unbearable is over coming the feeling of wanting to give up and get out, it's the rewards of not giving up that consumes all unpleasant- ness : ) the sweat itself is rough but some of my hot flashes have been worse ; ) 

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Piney
9 minutes ago, Debra F. II said:

Sorry to hear about your lodge : ( you really should think about a new one, it will be a lost art soon, much sooner than it should be.

Not really. My Uncle, our Ceremonial Chief has 5 Inipii Wicasaa (Lodge Keepers) trained. 

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OverSword
Just now, Piney said:

Farmers, artisans, craftsman, food shop and cart owners, horse trainers. Hostel owners. Retired soldiers with their small holdings. 

Your thinking about after the rot set in and the Great Migrations- invasions. 

 

 

Those are mainly lower class. the only people that really owned anything were those wealthy enough to be senators the upper class and the upper, upper class, then you had the poor and the you had slaves.

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Debra F. II
3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Your not suppose to smoke it. :lol:

and no, Algonquians use red cedar for smudge. Sage smells like burning horse crap. :lol:

Purple...

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Piney
Just now, OverSword said:

Those are mainly lower class. the only people that really owned anything were those wealthy enough to be senators the upper class and the upper, upper class, then you had the poor and the you had slaves.

From a archaeological standpoint, that "lower class" did pretty well. Had decent housing, ate well, had some nice things. 

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Piney
1 minute ago, Debra F. II said:

Purple...

Ewwwhhhhh. :o

I don't care what flavor it all smells like burning crap to me. :lol:

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