Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #226 Share Posted January 15, 2020 1 minute ago, DarkHunter said: it had no bearing on the conversation and was just more of your deep and illogical hatred of Trump and anyone who doesnt support your hatred of Trump. Thank you for proving my point. No one could possibly think that the rules of war are important right? Anyone who thinks that has an irrational hatred of Trump right? 3 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: He wasnt found guilty on those charges or any other charges other then posing with a dead insurgent. Despite what you think of the guy and whether he is a good guy or the worst man on earth it doesnt change the fact that he was only found guilty in a court of law of, and later pardoned for, posing for a picture with a dead insurgent. WHAT????? What I think of him doesnt change the fact that he was pardoned? Holy Hell Thank YOU! That is some deep thinking there are you available for private tutoring? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 15, 2020 #227 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Thank you for proving my point. No one could possibly think that the rules of war are important right? Anyone who thinks that has an irrational hatred of Trump right? Rules of war only exist for as long as they are convient, currently they make the war easier to sell to the public by making the west appear as the good guys but dont fool yourself into thinking they actually matter or that they wouldnt be broken in an instant if the need arose. 5 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: WHAT????? What I think of him doesnt change the fact that he was pardoned? Holy Hell Thank YOU! That is some deep thinking there are you available for private tutoring? You keep trying to say he was guilty of crimes that he was tried for and found not guilty of committing, you probably do need private tutoring though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #228 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Just now, DarkHunter said: Rules of war only exist for as long as they are convient Wow . The naivety it takes to espouse such a worldview is stunning. 1 minute ago, DarkHunter said: You keep trying to say he was guilty of crimes that he was tried for and found not guilty of committing, you probably do need private tutoring though. Yeah its weird its almost like I trust the troops in the field. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 15, 2020 #229 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Wow . The naivety it takes to espouse such a worldview is stunning. So you believe if we were fighting a peer enemy or fighting an existential war we would even care about let alone follow some abstract and artificial rules to limit our ability to win. 2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Yeah its weird its almost like I trust the troops in the field It's being logically inconsistent which you need to support your twisted world view and hatred. Essentially what you are doing is saying someone is tried for crime A and later gets pardoned for crime A so therefore he got pardoned for crimes B, C, D, and E even though he was either never tried or found guilty of said crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #230 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: So you believe if we were fighting a peer enemy or fighting an existential war we would even care about let alone follow some abstract and artificial rules to limit our ability to win. So you believe that discussing total war is relevant in this situation? Comeon grow up. There IS a time to act like animals. Do it before that time and you are no better than whomever it is you are hating this week ISIS, Iran etc. 7 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: It's being logically inconsistent which you need to support your twisted world view and hatred. Essentially what you are doing is saying someone is tried for crime A and later gets pardoned for crime A so therefore he got pardoned for crimes B, C, D, and E even though he was either never tried or found guilty of said crimes. What im saying is I trust the military men on the line over politicians. Once upon a time that wasnt a controversial position Edited January 15, 2020 by Farmer77 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 15, 2020 #231 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: So you believe that discussing total war is relevant in this situation? Comeon grow up. There IS a time to act like animals. Do it before that time and you are no better than whomever it is you are hating this week ISIS, Iran etc. War is just a race to the bottom, the more vicious one is the quicker it ends and the less people overall that suffer. Pretending we are morally better and prolonging the conflict has just caused more suffering for everyone involved. Once again you seem to be forgetting that I dont care about morality so I dont consider myself or anyone else better or worse then anyone else, to me we are all on the same level of depravity and cruelty. 5 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: What im saying is I trust the military men on the line over politicians. Politicians had nothing to do with Gallagher only being found guilty of posing for a picture of a dead insurgent and being pardoned for that alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #232 Share Posted January 15, 2020 1 minute ago, DarkHunter said: Politicians had nothing to do with Gallagher only being found guilty of posing for a picture of a dead insurgent and being pardoned for that alone. Sigh... I meant the uniformed ones. 1 minute ago, DarkHunter said: Once again you seem to be forgetting that I dont care about morality so I dont consider myself or anyone else better or worse then anyone else, to me we are all on the same level of depravity and cruelty. Yeah youre right and that makes me consider myself better than you so we should probably just go ahead and call it a day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 15, 2020 #233 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, DarkHunter said: So you believe if we were fighting a peer enemy or fighting an existential war we would even care about let alone follow some abstract and artificial rules to limit our ability to win. It's being logically inconsistent which you need to support your twisted world view and hatred. Essentially what you are doing is saying someone is tried for crime A and later gets pardoned for crime A so therefore he got pardoned for crimes B, C, D, and E even though he was either never tried or found guilty of said crimes. You know while your anologies obviously please your sensibilities on this subject the guys behaviour according to all other members of his Seal Team were very dishonourable. I served in Iraq, and I killed enemy soldiers, on more than one continent however, I never took my aggression out on prisoners or civilians. And as a Senior Leader I would have anyone I saw doing so brought up on charges for the crimes I saw them commit. It's not a freaking free for all, combat doesn't allow you to commit murder which is what it is called when you kill a non-combatant whether it is a wounded soldier, a captured soldier, or a civilian. Once someone is captured they become a non-combatant. I have a question for you have you ever killed some one during combat or have you ever lost a friend that was next to you? Here is a link where Galegers team describes his actions, this is not common for soldiers to report such crimes, that alone explains how bad his conduct was. It also clearly shows his actions were dishonourable and illegal. You can say or beleive anything you wish but it doesn't change the fact that his actions were illegal. The thing that surprises me the most, although it shouldn't is how galable the American public is, how they can be mislead by a man who also apparently has little honour and who has never been faced with command decisions concerning life and death. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gallagher-video.html Peace Edited January 15, 2020 by Manwon Lender 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #234 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Better than might not be the right way to put it......... Your lack of morality makes you a non thing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 15, 2020 #235 Share Posted January 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Sigh... I meant the uniformed ones. So the only people whose opinion you care about are the ones who back your views, other soldiers spoke out in his defense and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of all but one crime and you just cant get around that no matter how badly you want to. 14 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Yeah youre right and that makes me consider myself better than you so we should probably just go ahead and call it a day 6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Better than might not be the right way to put it......... Your lack of morality makes you a non thing to me. So very moral of you, considering someone with a different view then you as not even non-human but not even a thing so very moral and ethical. Even the worst dictators and genocidal leaders didnt even considers the ones they massacred as non-things, interested in just how depraved and cruel you would be to a non-thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #236 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: So the only people whose opinion you care about are the ones who back your views, other soldiers spoke out in his defense and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of all but one crime and you just cant get around that no matter how badly you want to. Spoke out in who's defense? 7 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: So very moral of you, considering someone with a different view then you as not even non-human but not even a thing so very moral and ethical. Even the worst dictators and genocidal leaders didnt even considers the ones they massacred as non-things, interested in just how depraved and cruel you would be to a non-thing. LOL Nice spin. No you admitted you dont care about morality. That makes you untrustworthy and dangerous. In my life I dont take chances with untrustworthy and dangerous people. Therefore you are a non thing. I guarantee you 3/4 of people you spew that morality thingy to think the same thing, im just in the mood to say it. Edited January 15, 2020 by Farmer77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 15, 2020 #237 Share Posted January 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Spoke out in who's defense? Gallagher as he was the one we were last discussing and the only one found not guilty for the vast majority of the charges brought against him. 3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: LOL Nice spin. No you admitted you dont care about morality. That makes you untrustworthy and dangerous. In my life I dont take chances with untrustworthy and dangerous people. Therefore you are a non thing. I guarantee you 3/4 of people you spew that morality thingy to think the same thing, im just in the mood to say it. You can try to justify it however you want, you still consider another with a different opinion as a non-thing. Even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and every other genocidal leader justified their actions in similar ways that you justify me being a non-thing. Interesting how you are supposed to be the moral one who is better then me while taking very similar position to people you would consider the worst of humanity. First off I dont care, even then I highly doubt it is 3/4 as most are as twisted with hatred as you, and second it at least brings up interesting philosophical discussions with my more philosophically inclined friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #238 Share Posted January 15, 2020 @DarkHunter I do have to confess to not doing a super deep dive into the other two war criminal stories after the Lorance story. That one is so cut and dry that i only peripherally followed the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 15, 2020 #239 Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: You can try to justify it however you want, you still consider another with a different opinion as a non-thing. Even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and every other genocidal leader justified their actions in similar ways that you justify me being a non-thing. Interesting how you are supposed to be the moral one who is better then me while taking very similar position to people you would consider the worst of humanity. Let me tell you that I am STUNNED youre playing the victim card here, just stunned I tell you Deal with it, your worldview is dangerous and as such you will be shunned , whether people like me are around to tell you its happening or not. Hell if you were truly honest you would admit that you wouldnt want people around you who openly tell you they cant be trusted either. Edited January 15, 2020 by Farmer77 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 15, 2020 #240 Share Posted January 15, 2020 18 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: Let me tell you that I am STUNNED youre playing the victim card here, just stunned I tell you Deal with it, your worldview is dangerous and as such you will be shunned , whether people like me are around to tell you its happening or not. Hell if you were truly honest you would admit that you wouldnt want people around you who openly tell you they cant be trusted either. Less playing the victim card and pointing out your hypocrisy, I find those that try to be moral tend to be the ones with the generally least moral stances. Never said it wasnt dangerous but it's far more honest and accurate then your world view. As for being shunned I'm definitely not being shunned so not the strongest argument of yours. First you connecting trust and morality is just wrong, the two are not connected in any meaningful way and are essentially completely independent. Going into that would be a rather deep and complex philosophical discussion which you are clearly incapable of having. Actually I would prefer people to be open if they can be trusted or not, would make so many things simpler and easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 15, 2020 #241 Share Posted January 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: Less playing the victim card and pointing out your hypocrisy, I find those that try to be moral tend to be the ones with the generally least moral stances. Never said it wasnt dangerous but it's far more honest and accurate then your world view. As for being shunned I'm definitely not being shunned so not the strongest argument of yours. First you connecting trust and morality is just wrong, the two are not connected in any meaningful way and are essentially completely independent. Going into that would be a rather deep and complex philosophical discussion which you are clearly incapable of having. Actually I would prefer people to be open if they can be trusted or not, would make so many things simpler and easier. Are you considering my comments in post 233, or do you find my comments irrelevant? peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 15, 2020 #242 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said: Are you considering my comments in post 233, or do you find my comments irrelevant? peace. Its largely irrelevant and wasnt really planning on responding. Gallagher was tried for the crimes and was found not guilty for everything except for posing with a dead insurgent which just about everyone in his unit also did. Do need to point out just because you think his action were illegal means little as the jury didnt find him guilty of any of the serious charges. Also honorable or dishonorable is completely and utterly meaningless and tends to be a great way to handicap oneself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted January 15, 2020 #243 Share Posted January 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: Its largely irrelevant and wasnt really planning on responding. Gallagher was tried for the crimes and was found not guilty for everything except for posing with a dead insurgent which just about everyone in his unit also did. Do need to point out just because you think his action were illegal means little as the jury didnt find him guilty of any of the serious charges. Also honorable or dishonorable is completely and utterly meaningless and tends to be a great way to handicap oneself There is also another possibility he could have been protected by someone. This is the only explanation for him not being found guilty, his entire team testified against him. They were present when the crimes were committed, and yet eye witness testimony wasn't taken seriously. That's unheard of in any military trial on record, especially since the witnesses were other Seal Team Members. Its more likely that he wasn't found guilty because of the disgrace it would have brought down upon one of our Nation Premier Special Operations Organiztions. Even the crime he was charged with under any other circumstances would not have caused him to be stripped of his rank and his retirement which it did. Normally taking pictures with a dead enemy soldier is certainly in poor taste but the punishment is nothing more than a letter of reprimand, not loss of rank and retirement. I know you are most likely not aware of criminal proceedings in these matters, so I don't blame for not understanding. But the crime he was found guilty of certainly didn't fit the action that were taken against him. So it is very simple to see if you understand it, that his actions were covered up because of the embarrassment and dishonour it would have brought to our country and the Navy Seals in general. I don't think it was in the best interest of our Nation to hide the facts, I think that we should stand up and admit a wrong was committed and punish those responsible. By hiding his actions our Nation looks corrupt and insensitive to the World, and these are traits that I am personally embarrassed by and so would most other Americans be if they knew the real truth. peace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted January 15, 2020 #244 Share Posted January 15, 2020 12 hours ago, Setton said: Also, seriously doubt the Iranians fired the missiles from Tehran. They wouldn't be expecting any retaliation that far from the border and that fast. A good point @Setton. In addition, why WOULD the Iranians station long-range missiles near Tehran ? That city is deep inside Iran, and a LONG way away from potential enemy targets. It would make more sense to place the missiles closer to Iran's borders. In regard the shoot-down of the Ukranian aircraft; I'm baffled. I can understand that the Iranians' might have put their air-defence grid on high alert, just in case the US had stealth bombers lurking ready to attack on Iran's borders. However, the Ukranian aircraft was NOT a stealth aircraft, and was following a standard flight path out of Tehran... a path followed by dozens of aircraft in the previous hours... and was ascending. This is NOT a bombing flight path. And the aircraft would have shown up on the Iranian missile attack radar very clearly... hardly a stealth bomber. It makes no sense, unless we assume that the missile operators (and commanders) where untrained chimpanzees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted January 15, 2020 #245 Share Posted January 15, 2020 4 hours ago, RoofGardener said: A good point @Setton. In addition, why WOULD the Iranians station long-range missiles near Tehran ? That city is deep inside Iran, and a LONG way away from potential enemy targets. It would make more sense to place the missiles closer to Iran's borders. In regard the shoot-down of the Ukranian aircraft; I'm baffled. I can understand that the Iranians' might have put their air-defence grid on high alert, just in case the US had stealth bombers lurking ready to attack on Iran's borders. However, the Ukranian aircraft was NOT a stealth aircraft, and was following a standard flight path out of Tehran... a path followed by dozens of aircraft in the previous hours... and was ascending. This is NOT a bombing flight path. And the aircraft would have shown up on the Iranian missile attack radar very clearly... hardly a stealth bomber. It makes no sense, unless we assume that the missile operators (and commanders) where untrained chimpanzees. Or their kit is shoddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted January 15, 2020 #246 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Setton said: Or their kit is shoddy. Their AA kit is the best that Russia can supply. Oh.. wait.... I see your point In this case, however, the missile performed perfectly. It was their command and control that was lacking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted January 15, 2020 #247 Share Posted January 15, 2020 According to the BBC, the person who filmed the missile hitting the plane has been arrested. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51114945 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted January 16, 2020 #248 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Probably just be a show trial with some peasants dressed in military outfits getting executed for the Iranian military's error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted January 16, 2020 #249 Share Posted January 16, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted January 16, 2020 #250 Share Posted January 16, 2020 16 hours ago, Hammerclaw said: Exactly. When the Iranian Supreme Leader sounds less unreasonable than your president, you know you've got problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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