Did Iran shoot down Ukraine passenger plane?

[RoofGardener]

1 minute ago, and then said:

It's a bit too late in the game now for that.  Do you really believe we could just bring all our military and diplomatic/intelligence assets home and be left alone by the Islamic fundies?  If we follow that prescription today then Iran will declare itself a nuclear weapons state in less than a year or two.  And yeah, for all those who so love to point out how long those predictions have been made I say get over yourself and explain why a rational nation would spend massive amounts of resources during times of economic struggle so they can have deeply delved, hardened facilities to carry on making medical isotopes?  IOW, you people are just ridiculous in your denials.  These religious crazies have been relentless in their pursuit of a bomb and the leverage for extortion that the bomb brings.  I think that keeping that Theocracy from obtaining nukes would actually justify USING small, low yield deep penetrating nukes against them.  The day they declare they are nuclear armed is going to be a bad day for this planet.

Iran is going to become a Nuclear Power, whether we like it or not. And if the US remains in the Middle East, it will just stumble from one Islamic quagmire to another. 

[acidhead]

 

[acidhead]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Iran is going to become a Nuclear Power, whether we like it or not. And if the US remains in the Middle East, it will just stumble from one Islamic quagmire to another. 

President Obama's brother:

 

[DarkHunter]

It seems the Iranian government has started issuing warning to the families of those killed in the plane being shot down, they are telling the families if they talk to the media over what occured they wont get the body back for burial

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Iran is going to become a Nuclear Power, whether we like it or not. And if the US remains in the Middle East, it will just stumble from one Islamic quagmire to another. 

I don't accept that as an inevitability.  Governments make the easy choices every time they're allowed to do.  I'd be willing to bet you that there were MPs that hated the idea of Britain's MoD spending on those Spitfires, Hurricanes, and pilot training prior Germany's aggression.  And they'd have been WRONG, as it turns out.  Same thing with Iran.  We have a choice, today.  Tomorrow?  Can you imagine dealing with these insane animals then?  These men are not rational, RG.  They are power-mad like other leaders but when push comes to shove they have as a tenet of their faith that creating world chaos is a positive move.

And I said NOTHING about us staying there indefinitely.  Removing that deadly, potentially existential threat from the world can be accomplished in a relatively short term, weeks/months at most and possibly even DAYS.  No Americans have any desire to bleed and die in Iran.  No massed formations of troops need go there.  It's cliche at this point but it's still factual - the precise application of high explosives can solve a multitude of problems.   If Trump is re-elected, I believe he might actually get them back to the table and whether they want it or not, he may make an agreement that emboldens the youth.  That's the only hope I have.

[Grim Reaper 6]

15 hours ago, Kismit said:

I did not blame Donald Trump, would you like to point out where I did.

Did you know who this Salamani was before he was killed? I did not, I believe he was a bad man in our eyes. Just as I believe there are Generals in the US army that others might think of in the same way. 
but that doesn’t change the fact that innocent people died while two men decided who could pee the furthest, or who was most righteous, pick your metaphor 

It doesn't matter if you blame President Trump or not, because he was responsible for deaths that occurred due to killing Solomani. The question is was it justified or not to put it plainly should Solomani have been targeted?

To answer this we must look at what he was directly responsible for concerning terrorist activities around the World. General Solomani has been the Commanding Officer that controlled Irans Terrorist Arms around the World since the 1980s. He has built and organised these organisations for use in terrorist activities against Israel, the US, the UK, and many Middle Eastern Countries. In Iraq and Afghanistan he supplied terrorists and ****e rebels with weapons and many other explosive devices that have killed US, UK, French, and soldiers from many other Nations. 

One of the most dangerous devices that was built in Iran and delivered for use by Solomani were Armor Penitrator IEDs. These devices have killed over a thousand US, UK and others soldiers in light Armored Vehicles. In addition his orders have been directly responsible for the deaths of many thousands of innocent civilians, who did nothing to deserve dying except being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism on our Planet, this not conjecture it is fact. I have personally known about his activities for many years, and if anyone deserved the death he received it was him. I mean when you live by terror you deserve to die in the same manner.

My knowledge of his activities are due to my Military Career, and intelligents information I was privey to as a Contractor through 2019. 

Here are some links that cover Hezbollahs bomb making facility in the U.K.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-said-to-have-covered-up-fact-it-foiled-2015-hezbollah-bomb-plot-near-london/

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/British-Police-expose-Hezbollah-explosives-outside-of-London-in-2015-592003

This was an attack on UK targets, that was stopped by information received by Israeli intelligence. It appears that they were in the process of making suicide vests because of the packets that were discovered along with explosive making material. While I agree that the loss of life you were discussing is terrible, if Solomani was allowed to continue his terrorist activities thousands more innocent civilians would have died, including more if your countrymen. 

Oh and by the way, the bomb building factory that was discovered, was found just days after the UK signed the Nuclear accords with Iran. I guess that was their present to the UK fir being part of that deal.

Peace

 

 

[Setton]

16 hours ago, bee said:

you seem to be trying to shift the blame away from Iran who gave permission and practical support

for the airliner to take off.... and then their military ..... shot it down .....

You do realise Iranian ATC probably isn't informed of top secret military operations in another country, right? 

3 hours ago, and then said:

I don't know... Soleimani probably thought he was invulnerable as well.  And he was WRONG...

Soleimani never thought he was invulnerable. His lifelong wish was to die a martyr. 

You gave him everything he ever wanted. Trump's speech shows just why the US is hopelessly incompetent in the middle east. 

Quote

By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.

They don't value their own lives. They want to be killed fighting you. 

So what he has just told them is "if you want everlasting paradise, kill Americans." 

[Black Red Devil]

6 hours ago, and then said:

And I said NOTHING about us staying there indefinitely.  Removing that deadly, potentially existential threat from the world can be accomplished in a relatively short term, weeks/months at most and possibly even DAYS.  No Americans have any desire to bleed and die in Iran.  No massed formations of troops need go there.  It's cliche at this point but it's still factual - the precise application of high explosives can solve a multitude of problems.   If Trump is re-elected, I believe he might actually get them back to the table and whether they want it or not, he may make an agreement that emboldens the youth.  That's the only hope I have.

So in other words you're hoping the American Airforce wipes out all the Islamic leadership with a few precise bombing raids, after which, their youths rise up to power and happily sit down at the table with the guy that ordered the bombings, where they agree to renounce all their nuclear ambitions which they were abiding by until he stepped in and tore it up.  A true Zionist fantasy I say.  Does handing over South Lebanon to Israel come with it as well?

[acidhead]

1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

So in other words you're hoping the American Airforce wipes out all the Islamic leadership with a few precise bombing raids, after which, their youths rise up to power and happily sit down at the table with the guy that ordered the bombings, where they agree to renounce all their nuclear ambitions which they were abiding by until he stepped in and tore it up.  A true Zionist fantasy I say.  Does handing over South Lebanon to Israel come with it as well?

Just curious... Brd

How would you handle the middle east?

What would you do?

[Farmer77]

6 hours ago, and then said:

And I said NOTHING about us staying there indefinitely.  Removing that deadly, potentially existential threat from the world can be accomplished in a relatively short term, weeks/months at most and possibly even DAYS.  No Americans have any desire to bleed and die in Iran.  No massed formations of troops need go there.  It's cliche at this point but it's still factual - the precise application of high explosives can solve a multitude of problems.   If Trump is re-elected, I believe he might actually get them back to the table and whether they want it or not, he may make an agreement that emboldens the youth.  That's the only hope I have.

For someone who speaks of human nature you sure seem to lose sight of it when discussing folks you dont like. The precise application of high explosives ABSOLUTELY can solve a multitude of problems. The lesson we have learned from history however is that it also creates a multitude more.

Sure our military could do all the things you are talking about. And it may make America safer for a short time, while the generation who watched their parents die in those attacks figures out their plan of attack. Suitcase nuke? Weaponized biological? What would you do if you watched your mother die at the hands of what youve been taught is an oppressive empire that hates you because of your religion?

Complicating things even further is that history also teaches us  when discussing Islam the act of revenge is scriptually required to come from all , not just the nation we are in conflict with.

Sure we could do what you say but it would only guarantee we would be there indefinitely.

[Black Red Devil]

3 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Just curious... Brd

How would you handle the middle east?

What would you do?

Probably the west has burnt too many bridges by now, but I like China's approach. 

link

 

[acidhead]

13 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Probably the west has burnt too many bridges by now, but I like China's approach. 

link

 

Just curious... 

What is  China doing differently than the USA?

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Just curious... 

What is  China doing differently than the USA?

Using Chopsticks, that's about it..

peace

[RoofGardener]

6 hours ago, Setton said:

Soleimani never thought he was invulnerable. His lifelong wish was to die a martyr. 

You gave him everything he ever wanted. Trump's speech shows just why the US is hopelessly incompetent in the middle east. 

Fine. Lets give a couple of million of them their lifelong wish !   

Edited January 12, 2020 by RoofGardener

[RoofGardener]

8 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

It seems the Iranian government has started issuing warning to the families of those killed in the plane being shot down, they are telling the families if they talk to the media over what occured they wont get the body back for burial

If they talk to the media, they will be killed by the state ! 

[Black Red Devil]

1 hour ago, acidhead said:

Just curious... 

What is  China doing differently than the USA?

Bombing, invading, killing, replacing govts, supporting oppression, supporting terrorist groups....is that enough?

[Setton]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Fine. Lets give a couple of million of them their lifelong wish !   

Making several million more in the process. 

You'd think the West would have learned by now - you can't shoot your way out of terrorism. 

[RoofGardener]

20 minutes ago, Setton said:

Making several million more in the process. 

You'd think the West would have learned by now - you can't shoot your way out of terrorism. 

I would argue that we just havn't tried hard enough, or used enough bullets  

[+DieChecker]

Maybe this was already posted. I've not read all 8 pages yet.

It’s easy to blame Trump. But the Iran plane disaster isn’t his fault. - The Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/its-easy-to-blame-trump-but-the-iran-plane-disaster-isnt-his-fault/2020/01/10/b53b9af2-33f8-11ea-91fd-82d4e04a3fac_story.html

Quote

Rep. Jackie Speier (D-Calif.), who sits on both the Intelligence and Armed Services committees, essentially said the president was at fault for the downing of the plane, while media reports from Canada, which lost at least 63 countrymen in the disaster, featured mourners pointing fingers at the United States.

 

Quote

During an interview on Thursday on CNN, Speier insisted that the disaster was “collateral damage” from Trump’s “provocative” actions toward Iran. When pressed during another CNN interview on Friday, she said that, while she wasn’t placing blame on Trump specifically for Iran’s apparent shoot-down of the plane, “it all emanates from the killing of [Maj. Gen Qasem] Soleimani” ordered by Trump. Speier added that, in the wake of the airstrike that targeted the Quds Force commander, Iran is “providing vengeance . . . to the United States,” which, though useful to the narrative dispensary, isn’t supported by logic in the case of the airliner. Never mind the worrisome possibility that Trump’s aphasia-like means of expression may be a contagious tic.

This is worse then the idiots in US media supporting the Iranians firing back. Now we have US Representatives saying Trump killed these people. How much time went by between the plane and Soleimani's death? 3, 4, 5 days?

[Farmer77]

9 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

This is worse then the idiots in US media supporting the Iranians firing back. Now we have US Representatives saying Trump killed these people. How much time went by between the plane and Soleimani's death? 3, 4, 5 days?

She didnt say Trump killed those people

She makes a valid scientific statement: actions have reactions. A POTUS made the decision to take out an official of a foreign government without that official posing an imminent threat to Americans in America  and there are, and will be further, consequences. Thats not saying it was Trumps fault, just that his choices were a factor

Again no offense but I simply cant believe that if Obama were POTUS you wouldnt feel the same.

(BTW great back and forth this AM , greatly appreciated! )

 

[Setton]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I would argue that we just havn't tried hard enough, or used enough bullets  

Just look at the Parsons Green bomber. We killed his parents in Iraq. Funnily enough, he grew up to hate us. 

You can't win by killing the terrorists, you have to kill the ideology. And the only way to do that is prove it wrong. Every time we kill a terrorist, we prove them right in their eyes. 

[RoofGardener]

3 hours ago, Setton said:

Just look at the Parsons Green bomber. We killed his parents in Iraq. Funnily enough, he grew up to hate us. 

You can't win by killing the terrorists, you have to kill the ideology. And the only way to do that is prove it wrong. Every time we kill a terrorist, we prove them right in their eyes. 

It's very difficult to kill an ideology. Perhaps we could compromise ? We'll attempt to kill the ideology, but in the meantime we also kill the terrorists ? 

You say that if we kill a terrorist, then we prove them right in their eyes. Well, in terms of Jihadist terrorist, they are right in their eyes ANYWAY, and we are all subhuman. So lets just kill them ? 

[Black Red Devil]

9 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Bombing, invading, killing, replacing govts, supporting oppression, supporting terrorist groups....is that enough?

Actually this is meant to read, THEY ARE NOT Bombing, invading...........

[Setton]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

It's very difficult to kill an ideology. Perhaps we could compromise ? We'll attempt to kill the ideology, but in the meantime we also kill the terrorists ? 

You say that if we kill a terrorist, then we prove them right in their eyes. Well, in terms of Jihadist terrorist, they are right in their eyes ANYWAY, and we are all subhuman. So lets just kill them ? 

For most, it doesn't start by seeing us as subhuman. It starts by them seeing us as attacking their (at that point not very extreme) beliefs. 

That pushes them further and further from the mainstream until some psychopath, usually not actually that religious, realises he can co-opt their frustration and anger for his own ends. 

Those psychos are the only ones we should be killing, not the ones who see terrorist groups as their only chance to avoid repression. 

[+DieChecker]

8 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

She didnt say Trump killed those people

She makes a valid scientific statement: actions have reactions. A POTUS made the decision to take out an official of a foreign government without that official posing an imminent threat to Americans in America  and there are, and will be further, consequences. Thats not saying it was Trumps fault, just that his choices were a factor

Again no offense but I simply cant believe that if Obama were POTUS you wouldnt feel the same.

Sure it is a factor, but theres factors all over the place. Possibly thousands of factors, but this Representative wants to focus on just one? Trump!

The general was in Iraq coordinating with people who were working directly against the Americans and Iraqis friendly to Americans. Some of that coordination was directly related to violent (terrorist) actions aimed at American soldiers who were INVITED into Iraq by the legitimate government. 

So.... 

It's not like he was there on vacation, or taking the kids to school, or making a peace treaty....

Quote

(BTW great back and forth this AM , greatly appreciated! )

Mental exercise!