Great Pyramid hidden chamber set for re-scan

[Scott Creighton]

37 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

She was replying to your declaration made in this thread with an example. Also you didn't link to Dr. G's material that supported your earlier contentions.

Fortunately Windowpane did demolishing your previous statement care to disagree? Avoiding questions on your sources - man you are becoming just like Cladking.....LOL

Read Hermione's post. She did no such thing.

But if it helps you sleep at night, you keep telling yourself that.

SC

[WVK]

50 minutes ago, Piney said:

 

Yeah, I'm the person Phillip Kopus was based on but Doreen Scott, the tribal advisor for the show demonized me.

In the beginning scene I didn't rip the stick out of the kid's hand and ream them out. In real life I asked them if they were on a war party and they said "No, we're Jedi".  

Back in the early 1970 we road dirt bikes througth those hills.  We heard stories of so called "Jackson Whites' living somewhere up there. The wisdom was that they were best left alone. 

https://www.medicalbag.com/home/specialties/dermatology/jackson-whites-albinism-piebaldness-and-the-legendary-people-of-the-ramapo-mountains/

 

[Hanslune]

55 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Read Hermione's post. She did no such thing.

But if it helps you sleep at night, you keep telling yourself that.

SC

Oh, then why don't you link to where G. says what you say she says.That would solve the problem.

Are you reluctant to do so? Why? Chuckle.

 

 

[Piney]

35 minutes ago, WVK said:

Back in the early 1970 we road dirt bikes througth those hills.  We heard stories of so called "Jackson Whites' living somewhere up there. The wisdom was that they were best left alone. 

  My friend Timmy and I were at the Batsto Visitor Center and since we were surfer/skaters we dressed like such. The tour guide was talking about us to some Boy Scouts and pointed us out. They just about crapped themselves but were staring at our feet. 

  After they left the lady told us a Scout story was we had 2 left feet and stole campers' left shoes. 

  We found their camp swiped every left shoe then haunted them pretty hard that night with the "Jersey Devil". 

[Windowpane]

3 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

...

I find your attempt here to derail this thread rather amusing (and not a little hypocritical) by trying to introduce something I have written in one of my books which has little, if anything, to do with the substance of this thread.

...

The substance of the particular point that I addressed was that you didn't care whether you were right or wrong.

I asked whether this stated indifference to the truth of any particular matter extended to the whole of your work, and gave one example of a recent statement that I believed to be factually incorrect (Hoax 185).

So, if you had known that you could cite evidence that would prove me mistaken, and you right, I would have expected you to lose no time in producing it.

Readers might be astonished, therefore, to see that you didn't leap to the defence of your claim: at which point they might be forgiven for enquiring how many other statements in Hoax (or, indeed, any other works) might be mistaken or incorrect, given that you've confirmed your apparent unconcern on such points.

[Scott Creighton]

10 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

The substance of the particular point that I addressed was that you didn't care whether you were right or wrong.

I asked whether this stated indifference to the truth of any particular matter extended to the whole of your work, and gave one example of a recent statement that I believed to be factually incorrect (Hoax 185).

So, if you had known that you could cite evidence that would prove me mistaken, and you right, I would have expected you to lose no time in producing it.

Readers might be astonished, therefore, to see that you didn't leap to the defence of your claim: at which point they might be forgiven for enquiring how many other statements in Hoax (or, indeed, any other works) might be mistaken or incorrect, given that you've confirmed your apparent unconcern on such points.

If you want a discussion on another topic, start a new thread.

 

SC

[Scott Creighton]

45 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Oh, then why don't you link to where G. says what you say she says.That would solve the problem.

This is what I said:

SC: The Coptic-Egyptians claim as their heritage to be the descendants of the Old Kingdom pyramid builders.

From here:

Now, follow the conversation (below) from 13:38 to 17:50

 

 

 

They're discussing the  "ancient Egyptian civilisation... 5,000 years... " That period of 5,000 years would include the Old Kingdom pyramid builders.

SC

[Thanos5150]

On 1/17/2020 at 3:28 AM, Scott Creighton said:

It is well known that (largely as a result of its geography), O.K. ancient Egypt was a fairly insular society. 

What is "well known" is that the exact opposite is actually true. 

Geographically, relevant to this discussion, the northern Sinai Peninsula and Nile Delta have been the highways between the Levant and North Africa since the Fayoum A culture first migrated to Egypt some 8,000yrs ago. It never stopped, the least of which the OK, particualrly with Byblos. Which of course there are also the relationships with their neighbors to the south and east.     

 

 

[Scott Creighton]

9 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

What is "well known" is that the exact opposite is actually true. 

Geographically, relevant to this discussion, the northern Sinai Peninsula and Nile Delta have been the highways between the Levant and North Africa since the Fayoum A culture first migrated to Egypt some 8,000yrs ago. It never stopped, the least of which the OK, particualrly with Byblos. Which of course there are also the relationships with their neighbors to the south and east.     

 

 

 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

This is what I said:

 

 

Well thanks Scott that was generally vague. Nothing supports an academic idea as well as linking its basis to a youtube video.

So you believe those vague general words are academic verification that Surid story comes directly to us from the Old Kingdom? Really, so could you link us to the evidence you believe supports the King Surid story is really information based on an OK 'fact'?

As others have noted these stories didn't exist until circa 1000 CE - which version by the way did you use? How does this stories association with the Biblical flood add to its veracity?

 ...anyway can you link to version you are using to support this contention?

Additionally did G. agree with your assignment of the Surid story having come from the OK?

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Hanslune

[Windowpane]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

This is what I said:

SC: The Coptic-Egyptians claim as their heritage to be the descendants of the Old Kingdom pyramid builders.

From here:

Now, follow the conversation (below) from 13:38 to 17:50

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLvZoPPpjaE&t=17m15s:

 

Quote

For example, a Chinese may like to appreciate Coptic music, because that is, er, his or her, way of, listening to what, human beings, how they sang, 5,000 years ago.  I am very much interested to know how the Chinese sang 5,000 years ago, how the Indians, er, wrote, on wall, on walls, or painted, 5,000 years ago.

 

This is coming, not from Dr. Guirguis, but from the host, Dr. Saad Michael Saad, and it concerns, specifically, Coptic music.  Dr. Guirguis says nothing about it, but responds to Dr. Saad’s following remarks, about the suppression of Egyptianness, talking about the impact of a colonising power, with a different ideology and a different agenda.

 

And this is supposed to be an argument for oral transmission of royal names, all the way from the pyramid-builders to the tenth century AD?

 

We might also consider the opening of the video, the logo of Logos TV and the other things it covers, in relation to Creighton’s assertion that “Their religion has little to do with this.”  Try saying this to a Copt.

[Scott Creighton]

22 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

 

Hans: Well thanks Scott that was generally vague. Nothing supports an academic idea as well as linking its basis to a youtube video.

SC: Of two Copts (one a Professor of language) discussing the persecution of the Copts and the suppression of their history. I would say that's pretty relevant to the general point I was making.

Hans: So you believe those vague general words are academic verification that Surid story comes directly to us from the Old Kingdom?

SC: That's not what I said. You're conflating different issues here. The Coptic Egyptians claim to be the descendants (the "custodians") of the ancient  Egyptian civilisation. They also claim that their history was suppressed by a number of invasions whereby much of their history was destroyed (books burned etc). This is why they had to pass on their history orally -- because it was forbidden by their imperial masters.

We are told that the story of Surid is a Coptic oral tradition that was committed to the written form only from circa 874 AD by Arabic scholars. That is all that is being said in this regard. YOU are the one inventing stuff here - that I have said that the Surid narrative has "academic verification". I have not said that anywhere so stop conflating issues and making out that I have said something I didn't.

Hans: Really, so could you link us to the evidence you believe supports the King Surid story is really information based on an OK 'fact'?

SC: See above. And as I have already said to you (and upon which we have agreed), the truth of that particular pudding will only be known when the interior of the Big Void is investigated.

Hans: As others have noted these stories didn't exist until circa 1000 CE - which version by the way did you use? How does this stories association with the Biblical flood add to its veracity?

SC: The issue is whether or not the ancestor kings will be found (or not) within the Big Void in accordance to the Coptic Surid narrative. Let's get that proven first then we can argue about the reasons afterwards.

SC

[Scott Creighton]

1 minute ago, Windowpane said:

This is coming, not from Dr. Guirguis, but from the host, Dr. Saad Michael Saad, and it concerns, specifically, Coptic music.  Dr. Guirguis says nothing about it...

SC: Go and read again what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote. Let me assist:

SC: 

SC: The Coptic-Egyptians claim ...

I did not say that Dr Guirgis claimed. I said "Coptic Egyptians". I believe Dr Saad is also a Coptic Egyptian. And I believe Dr Guirguis agreed with his comment. And Dr Saad is merely offering music as just one of the many aspects of the Coptic Egyptian culture that they have preserved from the Old Kingdom 5,000 years ago. But you knew that.

Your other witterings are merely petty point-scoring which, frankly, I find boring.

SC

[Hanslune]

32 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

 

SC: Of two Copts (one a Professor of language) discussing the persecution of the Copts and the suppression of their history. I would say that's pretty relevant to the general point I was making.

 

SC: That's not what I said. You're conflating different issues here. The Coptic Egyptians claim to be the descendants (the "custodians") of the ancient  Egyptian civilisation. They also claim that their history was suppressed by a number of invasions whereby much of their history was destroyed (books burned etc). This is why they had to pass on their history orally -- because it was forbidden by their imperial masters.

We are told that the story of Surid is a Coptic oral tradition that was committed to the written form only from circa 874 AD by Arabic scholars. That is all that is being said in this regard. YOU are the one inventing stuff here - that I have said that the Surid narrative has "academic verification". I have not said that anywhere so stop conflating issues and making out that I have said something I didn't.

 

SC: See above. And as I have already said to you (and upon which we have agreed), the truth of that particular pudding will only be known when the interior of the Big Void is investigated.

 

SC: The issue is whether or not the ancestor kings will be found (or not) within the Big Void in accordance to the Coptic Surid narrative. Let's get that proven first then we can argue about the reasons afterwards.

SC

Yeah okay, so no verification, no association just you making a guess. Great. We'll just wait for them to drill.

However what version of the Surid story were you looking at?

[Hanslune]

Lets look at some information

Evolution of the pyramid myths:

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/the-antediluvian-pyramid-myth.html

Surid myth:

Quote

Then the king ordered the construction of temples and great monuments, for himself and his family, in order to safeguard their bodies and all their riches, which they would deposit within. He inscribed on the ceilings, on the roofs, on the walls, and on columns, all the secrets of science, in which the Egyptians excelled more than any other nation; and he had painted a picture of the great stars and lesser stars, with signs that permitted their recognition. He also engraved the names of plants and their properties, how to construct talismans, their descriptions, and the rules of mathematics and geometry. All who know the books and the language of Egypt can make use of these images and inscriptions. [...] The king ordered the construction of tall monuments, the cleaving of huge slabs, the extraction of lead from the land of the West, and the rolling in of stones from the region of Aswan; these great black rocks were drawn on chariots. He laid the foundations of the three pyramids, Eastern, Western and Colored. [...] They decorated the pyramids with paintings, inscriptions, and figures capable of confounding the imagination. [...] He filled the western pyramid with emerald objects, images made with the substances of the stars, wonderful talismans, iron tools of outstanding quality, weapons that cannot rust, glass objects that can bend without breaking, all types of drugs (simple and compounded), deadly poisons, and a host of other things too numerous to describe. Into the eastern pyramid, he transported the idols of the stars, representations of the heavens, wonders built by his ancestors, incense to offer to the idols, books containing the history of ancient Egypt, an account of the lives of the kings and the dates of all the events that had transpired, still other books comprising a proclamation of all that would happen in Egypt until the end of time, with a description of the paths of the fixed stars and their influence at every moment. He also placed vessels containing drugs and other similar things. In the third pyramid, he deposited the bodies of the priests in black flint coffins, and with nearly every priest he placed books which recounted all that he had done and the story of his life.  

[...] When all these things had been established, King Sūrīd entrusted surveillance to the invisible spirits and offered them sacrifices, so they would turn down anyone who would want to approach without providing the agreed-upon offerings and without performing the established rites in their honor.

The Copts say that the pyramids bear a painted inscription in Arabic whose interpretation is this: “I, Sūrīd, the king, built these pyramids at such and such a time. I completed the building in six years. Let anyone who would come after me and believe himself a king as great as I destroy them in six years, for all know that it is easier to destroy than to build. I also covered the pyramids in silk: Let those who come after me cover them in turn.” (2.2, my trans.)

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/what-did-abu-mashar-know-about-surid-and-the-pyramids

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/al-maqrizi-on-the-pyramids.html#.XiNdTSNryUk

[Windowpane]

3 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

If you want a discussion on another topic, start a new thread.

 

No need for that.

A mere word from you would doubtless be more than sufficient to sort out the confusion over Hoax 185 and reaffirm your status as a conscientious author who, punctiliously checking facts on behalf of his concerned readers, fights under the flag of truth against all forms of falsity and prevarication.

And yet, despite several posts, still this word is not forthcoming ...

... and a line of odoriferous rats heaves ominously into view over the horizon ...

[Scott Creighton]

8 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

No need for that.

A mere word from you would doubtless be more than sufficient to sort out the confusion over Hoax 185 and reaffirm your status as a conscientious author who, punctiliously checking facts on behalf of his concerned readers, fights under the flag of truth against all forms of falsity and prevarication.

And yet, despite several posts, still this word is not forthcoming ...

... and a line of odoriferous rats heaves ominously into view over the horizon ...

And STILL you persist in derailing this thread. 

You are twittering on about some "confusion" in my previous book. I won't say it again - start a new thread and raise your concerns there. STOP derailing this thread.

(My apologies to UM-Bot for the derailment of your thread and that I have to spell out the bleeding obvious to some posters here who, frankly, should damn well know better).

SC

[Swede]

21 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Says who? You? I think professor Guirguis would take a somewhat different view.

SC

Guirguis was hardly the only individual to research oral histories. Dissecting oral histories in order to possibly ascertain the valid elements is a complex process that requires extensive knowledge of a culture. Potential descent is not at all a necessarily relevant aspect in regards to validity. Suggest that you study the papers presented in #105 to gain some insight into the complexities.

.

[Swede]

21 hours ago, Piney said:

The histories of the Coastal Algonquians aren't even a little sound.

Chuckle! No disagreement there.

.

[Scott Creighton]

25 minutes ago, Swede said:

Guirguis was hardly the only individual to research oral histories. .

She's the only one, as far as I am aware, who has researched the oral history of the Egyptian-Copts. And, in her opinion, the oral narrative is a resilient means of passing down cultural history. And that's the important point here.

SC

[jaylemurph]

10 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

I personally don’t give a rat’s fart if I’m right or wrong.

Just out of curiosity, who do think believes that obvious and insincere lie?

—Jaylemurph 

[Hanslune]

51 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Just out of curiosity, who do think believes that obvious and insincere lie?

—Jaylemurph 

I certainly don't.  He is also like another person who has developed an irrational dislike for science and Egyptology in particular - IMO since 'it' gets in his way. I remember his "I'm going to sue everyone" period - very hostile. Oddly I don't think he ended up doing so. I'm still awaiting the papers....lol

His anger from people complaining about his labeling himself as an engineer instead of an ITC engineer still seems to linger.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Hanslune

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

So the Coptic Oral Traddition, something so reliable as to inerrant and unchanging as to maintain hidden 5000~ year old knowledge added the Abrahamic Flood to that very oral history?

[Hanslune]

7 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

So the Coptic Oral Traddition, something so reliable as to inerrant and unchanging as to maintain hidden 5000~ year old knowledge added the Abrahamic Flood to that very oral history?

Yeah no Christian influence there but of course the AE had a yearly experience with floods so such a melding of ideas was perhaps to be expected. However thinking a pyramid would be a good place to put stuff during a flood seems rather silly and a lot of work for nuthin'. There was a higher hill in (in what is now Cairo) and they didn't built at the top of the Giza plateau but along the 'military' crest.

You can see from the map that they went for 65 meters instead of 100 - if you want height above a flood - the placement makes no sense. No to even mention the lack of usable space over the thickness of the structure. Again a complete waste of effort.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Hanslune

[Windowpane]

4 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

SC: Go and read again what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote. Let me assist:

 

 

I did not say that Dr Guirgis claimed. I said "Coptic Egyptians". I believe Dr Saad is also a Coptic Egyptian. And I believe Dr Guirguis agreed with his comment. And Dr Saad is merely offering music as just one of the many aspects of the Coptic Egyptian culture that they have preserved from the Old Kingdom 5,000 years ago. But you knew that.

Your other witterings are merely petty point-scoring which, frankly, I find boring.

 

The Coptic Egyptians claim what, precisely?  Allow me to help you with that ...

Quote

SC: The Coptic-Egyptians claim as their heritage to be the descendants of the Old Kingdom pyramid builders.

You've provided no evidence of their making this claim, whether in the article, the video, or anywhere else - and you've certainly provided no evidence of their claiming to have in their tradition reliable information from the pyramid builders.  Let's be clear on this: there is absolutely no sign of Dr. Guirguis or Dr. Saad claiming truth for the Surid tradition - and you've cited no one else.

Quote

And I believe Dr Guirguis agreed with his comment.

Thank you for telling us about your beliefs.  When Guirguis fails to say what you want her to say, you drop her like a hot potato, naturally.

Quote

And Dr Saad is merely offering music as just one of the many aspects of the Coptic Egyptian culture that they have preserved from the Old Kingdom 5,000 years ago.

 

This is merely assumption.  That Coptic music reproduces ancient Egyptian music of as long ago as 5,000 years is also an assumption on the part of Dr. Saad, and a questionable one.  We need evidence, not appeal to authority:

Quote

Coptic chant is a very old tradition, assumed to have links with the ancient liturgies of Jerusalem or Syria, while some of the melodies had been adopted from Ancient Egyptian burial practices and other rituals; however, manuscripts survive only since recent times and little is known for sure about the older tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_music

But also this:

Quote

The percussion instruments used in the Coptic Church are unusual among Christian liturgies. Since similar instruments appear in ancient Egyptian frescoes and reliefs, some believe that they may represent a survival from a very old tradition.

That ancient Egyptian music of the Late Period is the same as that of the Old Kingdom is an assumption.  The evidence shows change.  Notably, percussion instruments are not seen in the Old Kingdom.  (More on the earliest music in AE).

It seems to me that you are cherry-picking the tradition to which you appeal.  Moreover, you are still ignoring the information given here - where, contrary to your story, we see an assignment of pyramids to specific, individual kings, which might even represent a real tradition going back to ancient Egypt.