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Great Pyramid hidden chamber set for re-scan

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Sir Wearer of Hats
10 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

It is well known that (largely as a result of its geography), O.K. ancient Egypt was a fairly insular society. The point here, however, is merely to demonstrate that the key element(s) of oral narratives can last intact for immense periods of time. And when this narrative relates information that is of a life or death nature then the central message of that oral narrative is highly resilient and resistant to change over centuries and millennia: 

Except the Copts are entirely unconnected to the Old Kingdom, as Christians they are literally post-Kingdomic when Egypt was one of the hubs of the Roman Empire. Sure an idea might have lasted millennia without alteration, but it ended up in the hands of Christians, who were prone to appropriating anything interesting or destroying anything even vaguely conflicting with their beliefs. A “Hall of Knowledge” would have fitted into at least one of those categories.

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Scott Creighton
11 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Except the Copts are entirely unconnected to the Old Kingdom...

Read the paper I linked to. The Copts (which means 'Ptah' i.e. 'Egypt') claim they are the descendants of the original ancient Egyptian civilisation.

SC

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jaylemurph
10 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Read the paper I linked to. The Copts (which means 'Ptah' i.e. 'Egypt') claim they are the descendants of the original ancient Egyptian civilisation.

SC

And the British claim to be Trojans. Doesn’t make it true. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Scott Creighton
5 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

And the British claim to be Trojans. Doesn’t make it true. 

—Jaylemurph 

What? Is this what we call a false equivalence?

Are you aware of how Champollion was able to beat the British polymath, Thomas Young, to 'cracking' the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic language?

Champollion was able to do that because he was fluent in the Coptic-Egyptian language - spoke it almost every day with his children. The Coptic-Egyptian language was the key to 'cracking' the ancient hieroglyphics.

Now, I wonder how the Coptic-Egyptian language was able to do that? Oh I don't know - perhaps there really was a connection between it and the ancient Egyptian language of the Old Kingdom. It's just a hunch but I reckon the Coptic-Egyptians are probably on the money on this one i.e. they are the descendants of the original Old Kingdom Egyptians.

SC

 

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Swede
1 hour ago, Piney said:

:mellow: Schmuckness must run in the Gens.......

You may be unfamiliar with the referenced paper(s):

https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/brett.furth/anth2301/anth-2301-research-paper/native-american-burials/echo-hawk-2000

Mason's point/counter-point:

http://www.iupui.edu/~mstd/e316/mason.pdf

While the authors address the topic from differing perspectives, there would appear to be an agreement that relying upon oral histories/traditions should be approached in a rather cautionary manner that essentially requires additional support prior to the acceptance of the histories as sound data.

You have recently mentioned the 19th century development of fry-bread, which is now considered to be "traditional". A noteworthy example.

Of course, such details and subtleties will likely be missed by certain fringe "authors".

.

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Hanslune

I remember one of my professor use to referred to it as, 'old biased paraphrased hearsay'. OBPH, or 'odd (ph)-(fl)lop'

Edited by Hanslune
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Swede
11 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

 i.e. they are the descendants of the original Old Kingdom Egyptians.

Which has remarkably little to do with the accurate and detailed transmission of information over the time period in question.

.

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Scott Creighton
6 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

I remember one of my professor use to referred to it as, 'old biased paraphrased hearsay'. OBPH, or 'odd (ph)-(fl)lop'

Perhaps your former professor should have a discussion with professor Guirguis with regard to the Coptic-Egyptian oral tradition?

Just a thought.

SC

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Scott Creighton
Just now, Swede said:

Which has remarkably little to do with the accurate and detailed transmission of information over the time period in question.

.

Says who? You? I think professor Guirguis would take a somewhat different view.

SC

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Hanslune
7 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Perhaps your former professor should have a discussion with professor Guirguis with regard to the Coptic-Egyptian oral tradition?

Just a thought.

SC

He's dead. Even hearsay is sometimes true.

Yet it remains hearsay. Its an interesting idea you have but....To resolve this we'll have to just wait for them to stick a camera in there. Or are you going to prance about insisting its true over, and over and over and over again for next few years?

Edited by Hanslune
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Hanslune
1 minute ago, Scott Creighton said:

Says who? You? I think professor Guirguis would take a somewhat different view.

SC

Yes he could and I'm sure one can debate the value of hearsay, er oral history endlessly. One should take a rational position - it might or might not be true. In this case looking into the void will (hopefully) answer the question. Until then taking an absolute position either way is folly. Given your history and ego I suspect you're hear to endless argue the point? lol

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Scott Creighton
1 minute ago, Hanslune said:

Yes he could and I'm sure one can debate the value of hearsay, er oral history endlessly. One should take a rational position - it might or might not be true. In this case looking into the void will (hopefully) answer the question

Yes - agreed.

Hanslune said:

. Until then taking an absolute position either way is folly. Given your history and ego I suspect you're hear to endless argue the point?

I'm here to present my ideas. That is all.

SC

PS - btw ego is purely for egotists. Oh and it's 'here' not 'hear'. (Don't worry - I do that all the time - LOL).

 

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Hanslune
3 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Yes - agreed.

 

 

Good we agree glad to hear you've given up using Cladking's endless repetition strategy.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
57 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Read the paper I linked to. The Copts (which means 'Ptah' i.e. 'Egypt') claim they are the descendants of the original ancient Egyptian civilisation.

SC

And? Spoilers dude, if they’re native Egyptians than they are obviously the descendants of the original ancient Egyptians, it doesn’t mean they’re the secret inheritors of arcane knowledge that none of the other descendants of of the original ancient Egyptians (ie everyone else in Egypt at the time who wasn’t Greek or from any of the other corners of the Roman Empire) were not. 
 

I reiterate my position that Christians were the most notorious destroyers of pagan wisdom and learning this planet has ever seen. You will have to work a lot harder than “read my blog” to convince me that should the Copts have possessed knowledge of the Hall of Knowledge they wouldn’t have simply burnt it to the ground on the grounds of “if it’s not in the Bible it’s heresy, if it is in the Bible it’s redundant”.

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Piney
38 minutes ago, Swede said:

While the authors address the topic from differing perspectives, there would appear to be an agreement that relying upon oral histories/traditions should be approached in a rather cautionary manner that essentially requires additional support prior to the acceptance of the histories as sound data.

The histories of the Coastal Algonquians aren't even a little sound.

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jaylemurph
2 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

What? Is this what we call a false equivalence?

Not at all. It’s an “direct equivalence that makes you look silly.” So I can see your objection, even if it’s self-serving in the extreme — but literally everything I’ve ever seen you post is a variation of how everyone else in the world is wrong and you alone understand history, so self-serving is your wheelhouse. 

[material redacted]

Nothing else in your post was on point.

—Jaylemurph 

Edited by jaylemurph
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Hanslune
5 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Perhaps your former professor should have a discussion with professor Guirguis with regard to the Coptic-Egyptian oral tradition?

Just a thought.

SC

Could you link to Guirguis where he writes specifically on or about the Old Kingdom and where he notes an oral tradition going back to the building of the pyramids?

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Windowpane
3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Could you link to Guirguis where he writes specifically on or about the Old Kingdom and where he notes an oral tradition going back to the building of the pyramids?

(Dr. Guirguis is a "she," Hanslune ... )

While there are a few brief mentions of pyramids, I can't find any reference to Khufu, the Old Kingdom, or the IV Dynasty.  What Guirguis does state is that:

Quote

Orality‘s ability to preserve secrecy, as well as collective history and identity, explains why the Copts as descendants of the ancient Egyptians, a highly literate society, and one of the earliest in human history to be credited with inventing writing, historically reverted to oral transmission to preserve their history and identity [my emphasis] (198)

The text isn't saying that Coptic tradition dates to the Old Kingdom. It's saying that, in later times, the Copts went back to word of mouth as a means of passing on tradition.   As a recent commentator has observed:  

Quote

 ... the myths ["these ancient texts from the Coptic-Egyptian tradition "] he [Creighton] cites, about King Surid building the pyramids before the Flood, doesn’t exist in the historical record before c. 1000 CE, and the preceding versions are vastly different and traceable to known historical sources.

 

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Scott Creighton
9 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

... literally everything I’ve ever seen you post is a variation of how everyone else in the world is wrong and you alone understand history...

You’re entitled to your opinion. And I’m entitled to mine.

If I undertake research and think that Egyptology has overlooked or misinterpreted a piece of evidence then I’m not the kind of person who will simply ignore that, brush it under the carpet and meekly follow the crowd. I call it as I see it and that has meant my views diverging from the mainstream opinion. 

I personally don’t give a rat’s fart if I’m right or wrong. It rather seems to me that your comment (above) is more a reflection of your own disposition than it ever is (or will be) of mine i.e. it is YOU who simply cannot countenance being wrong and you detest anyone who attempts to do that, who doesn't accept YOUR view. The horror! At least – that’s how it looks from where I’m standing.

What I present in my article is a hypothesis – nothing more. It, obviously, remains to be seen whether the hypothesis is correct (or not). And I fully anticipate the truth of it will never be revealed (or, at least, not in any of our lifetimes).

SC

Edited by Scott Creighton
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Windowpane
1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

...

I personally don’t give a rat’s fart if I’m right or wrong.

...

Really?

And his applies to all your work, does it?

If so, it would explain the presence of the factually incorrect statement on pg. 185 of Hoax that you have so far refused to address - or even acknowledge - to the consequent benefit of a whole Pied Piper's retinue of methane-producing rodents ...

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Scott Creighton
19 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

Really?

And his applies to all your work, does it?

If so, it would explain the presence of the factually incorrect statement on pg. 185 of Hoax that you have so far refused to address - or even acknowledge - to the consequent benefit of a whole Pied Piper's retinue of methane-producing rodents ...

I find your attempt here to derail this thread rather amusing (and not a little hypocritical) by trying to introduce something I have written in one of my books which has little, if anything, to do with the substance of this thread. I recall you complaining (rightly I have to say) to me on your Hall of Ma'at web site when I derailed some of your threads there. And here you are.

SC

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WVK
On 1/16/2020 at 6:29 PM, Piney said:

My people, the Lenape, "reinvented" themselves about 1811.

Off topic but perhaps you are familiar with the TV series " The Red Road". I used to live in  that area on (RT 202 Oakland)  Disappointed that it  was shot in Georgia 

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Hanslune
1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

I find your attempt here to derail this thread rather amusing (and not a little hypocritical) by trying to introduce something I have written in one of my books which has little, if anything, to do with the substance of this thread. I recall you complaining (rightly I have to say) to me on your Hall of Ma'at web site when I derailed some of your threads there. And here you are.

SC

She was replying to your declaration made in this thread with an example. Also you didn't link to Dr. G's material that supported your earlier contentions.

Fortunately Windowpane did demolishing your previous statement care to disagree? Avoiding questions on your sources - man you are becoming just like Cladking.....LOL

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Piney
12 minutes ago, WVK said:

Off topic but perhaps you are familiar with the TV series " The Red Road". I used to live in  that area on (RT 202 Oakland)  Disappointed that it  was shot in Georgia 

:lol: 

Yeah, I'm the person Phillip Kopus was based on but Doreen Scott, the tribal advisor for the show demonized me.

In the beginning scene I didn't rip the stick out of the kid's hand and ream them out. In real life I asked them if they were on a war party and they said "No, we're Jedi".  :lol:

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