Attenborough warns of climate 'crisis moment'

[Doug1029]

13 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 End? Good luck with that! People who work hard for their way of life and their possessions are not just going to bend over to Socialism/communism.

Rather ironic.  Here am I, the Socialist, advocating for capitalism.  Here are you, the capitalist, pointing out the shortcomings of capitalism.  Maybe we should get together.

And I don't know anybody who wants communism.  Communism works here in the US in a limited way.  The Post Office, TVA, USDA Forest Service , USDI Park Service and Columbia River Authority are all Federally owned.  Government ownership of capital is the definition of communism.  But to expand that to make the whole nation communist sounds like insanity to me.  We have a system that works reasonably well.  Why destroy it?  Tweak it to make it work better for all our people.

Doug

[Doug1029]

2 hours ago, Doug1029 said:

Rather ironic.  Here am I, the Socialist, advocating for capitalism.  Here are you, the capitalist, pointing out the shortcomings of capitalism.  Maybe we should get together.

And I don't know anybody who wants communism.  Communism works here in the US in a limited way.  The Post Office, TVA, USDA Forest Service , USDI Park Service and Columbia River Authority are all Federally owned.  Government ownership of capital is the definition of communism.  But to expand that to make the whole nation communist sounds like insanity to me.  We have a system that works reasonably well.  Why destroy it?  Tweak it to make it work better for all our people.

Doug

P.S.:  I forgot the Bureau of Reclamation.  Don't want to leave anybody out.

Doug

[tmcom]

It will be great when all of this is over, (virus) and we can get back to global cooling!

[Ogbin]

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

People who have next to nothing still have to eat.  They still have to sleep somewhere.  They will take whatever they need by whatever means are necessary to accomplish that.

Preaching to the choir..

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

Poachers in Africa kill endangered animals to get some money to feed their families.

 You shouldn't be making excuses for these people, it's unbecoming.

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

The last known female white giraffe was shot less than a week ago for this very purpose.

  "The poachers have not been identified, and their motive remains unclear. The Kenya Wildlife Service, the main conservation body in Kenya, is currently investigating the killings."    Source: NBC News

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that 'Greed' was most likely the reason, not their family.  

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

In order to protect the planet, we have to take care of its people.

Chicken or Egg?

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

The biblical injunction to "subdue the earth" will result in its destruction.

 No.. Greed and Corruption will be the reason.

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

These resources are things like food and space to grow that food, like water and the streams that provide it, like clothing and the means to obtain it.  So, yes.  They do pollute.

So what do you do? Help everyone on earth and continue polluting or help no one and save the planet? Remember you only have 50 years.

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

Mechanized agriculture uses diesel to plow, disc, plant and reap.  Fields take up space needed by other living things.  Water used to irrigate bluegrass lawns is not being used to maintain stream channels.  We tread pretty heavily on the earth.

 That's what happens when 7 billion people live on a planet, they use it.

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

It is the concentration of resources in the hands of a few that will have to end.  Sorry I wasn't clear about that. 

I understood you just fine. 

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

It is the concentration of resources in the hands of a few that will have to end.  Sorry I wasn't clear about that.  We need capitalism and the profit motive to facilitate conversion to clean energy.  We will do that because wind and solar are cheaper than anything else.  Electric companies are building windmills because they can make a profit doing it.  We need to keep capitalism around, but we do need to reign in its worst features.

You want to change it so you can come and take what I have instead of paying for it. Like I said before..  Good luck with that!

On 3/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, Doug1029 said:

Both are energy intensive.  To grow vegetables requires weeding - pulling a cultivator through the field with a tractor, or putting on an herbicide through the irrigation water.

Using technology to remove CO2 from the air takes a lot of power that has to be generated and paid for.  Scientists and engineers are working on more efficient systems, but we are still at least ten years from deploying them.

 You see those Unicorns flying around that Rainbow over there? Pretty aren't they? Got bad news for ya.. Their not real  And neither are Magic Wands, You make it sound like we are all screwed no matter what. So just sit back and enjoy the end of the world. Why waist a front row seat?

Edited March 15, 2020 by Ogbin

[tmcom]

6 hours ago, Ogbin said:

Preaching to the choir..

 You shouldn't be making excuses for these people, it's unbecoming.

  "The poachers have not been identified, and their motive remains unclear. The Kenya Wildlife Service, the main conservation body in Kenya, is currently investigating the killings."    Source: NBC News

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that 'Greed' was most likely the reason, not their family.  

Chicken or Egg?

 No.. Greed and Corruption will be the reason.

So what do you do? Help everyone on earth and continue polluting or help no one and save the planet? Remember you only have 50 years.

 That's what happens when 7 billion people live on a planet, they use it.

I understood you just fine. 

You want to change it so you can come and take what I have instead of paying for it. Like I said before..  Good luck with that!

 You see those Unicorns flying around that Rainbow over there? Pretty aren't they? Got bad news for ya.. Their not real  And neither are Magic Wands, You make it sound like we are all screwed no matter what. So just sit back and enjoy the end of the world. Why waist a front row seat?

Yes, that is Doug, seas are rising except AU coastline, (l know insane). and the world won't end by 2030, it will just look like it is?

Here is a laugh about how stupid this is becoming.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/390634.stm

Quote

That's because, despite the fact that this particular glacier is growing, the whole Greenland ice sheet is still losing lots and lots of ice. Jakobshavn drains only about seven percent of the entire ice sheet, so even if it were growing robustly, mass loss from the rest of the ice sheet would outweigh its slight expansion.

It may sound a bit confusing, but that’s because the reality of climate change isn’t a straight line, say NASA researchers.

So apparently the sheet in iceland is growing but the rest is melting, this is with no heating being available, or most of the ice in iceland is magical, (you mentioned Unicorns) and melts below the freezing point while some doesnt, (or icelands ice is exempt from the law of thermodynamics).

Quote

“The thinking was once glaciers start retreating, nothing's stopping them,” explains Josh Willis, an oceanographer at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory and OMG’s lead scientist. “We've found that that's not true.”

He even admits that nothing is stopping it!

Which is translated, " we have lied so much we are tripping over our mound of BS", but the gullible will buy it so.

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2787/nasa-gets-up-close-with-greenlands-melting-ice/

They mention melting ice, in the header, but the rest no mention of it, and nickname it OMG, lol, l thought that LOS, was better.

[Doug1029]

12 hours ago, Ogbin said:

You shouldn't be making excuses for these people, it's unbecoming.

Excuses are beside the point.  We want people to stop killing wildlife so we eliminate their motivation.

But that is not the most-important issue facing natural resource specialists.  Climate change has the potential to exterminate many hundreds of species more, threatening our own existence.  Some people work on preserving wildlife and more power to them.  I do forestry research, but because trees are being heavily impacted by climate change, I also study climate.

 

12 hours ago, Ogbin said:

  "The poachers have not been identified, and their motive remains unclear. The Kenya Wildlife Service, the main conservation body in Kenya, is currently investigating the killings."    Source: NBC News

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that 'Greed' was most likely the reason, not their family.  

You're probably right.  No parts of the white giraffes were taken.  Hunters take the meat.  Poachers take parts to sell.  This looks like wanton killing for its own sake.

 

12 hours ago, Ogbin said:

No.. Greed and Corruption will be the reason.

"Subduing the earth" is the excuse used by the greedy and corrupt.  "The Lord uses the good; the evil use the Lord."

 

12 hours ago, Ogbin said:

So what do you do? Help everyone on earth and continue polluting or help no one and save the planet? Remember you only have 50 years.

When I first moved to Oklahoma in 2001 we had two wind farms in the state.  We now have 31 with permits issued for five more.  We went from a few dozen wind turbines to over 3700.  In 2001 wind was generating less than 1% of the US' power needs.  Today it is generating 15%.  Perovskites are just coming on line.  Twelve years ago they didn't exist.  We still hjave something like 600 perovskite compounds to test.  I feel quite confident that one of them will make perovskites cheaper than wind.

I don't know where you live, but in most places in the US, you can get a price reduction on your electric bill by requesting wind power.  Check it out.

My contribution to saving the planet is:

1.  A paper identifying an ice storm signature in shortleaf pine rings.  We can now track the history of ice storms going back hundreds of years, allowing ice storm and heavy snow effects to be separated from climate effects.  (Already published.)

2.  A paper on tree planting and the effects of different site treatments used at planting time.  The paper includes equations for predicting height and diameter growth and mortality.  It includes equations for predicting gross tree volume.  Take that volume, divide by two and multiply by 0.4 and you have the weight of carbon sequestered (Already published).

3.  A paper on the use of double meridian distance to determine corrections for slopover plots in forest and agricultural inventories. (Abstract already published.)

4.  A paper on litter deposition by shortleaf pine.  I found that carbon storage in the litter layer averages 5.34 metric tons per hectare in southeast Oklahoma and southwest Arkansas.  (In review).

5.  A paper on the "measure pi method" of correcting for plot slopover.  The method is the oldest one ever used, but has never been popular die to the amount of arithmetic a cruiser would have to do with pencil and paper.  Now it can be done with a calculator in seconds.  (Paper will go to review this coming week.).

6.  A paper on increasing temperatures and rainfall in Oklahoma.  Since 1904 Oklahoma's climate index (temperature) has risen two degrees F.  That's about average for the world in general, but precip has risen over 6 inches (15%) in that same time.  Increased precip correlates with cedar ground cover.  That explains the invasion of range land by cedar.  (Paper being re-written for publication.).

I have spent a 30-year career in the practice of forestry, having planted over 30,000 seedlings, harvested about two million board feet and hugged about 100,000 trees.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Doug1029

[Doug1029]

12 hours ago, Ogbin said:

That's what happens when 7 billion people live on a planet, they use it.

Seven billion people are the problem.  We have to bring that down.  Some countries are doing so.  They all have two things in common:  they educate their women and they are industrialized.  Most women do not want to spend their lives as baby factories.  Give them a way to change that and most will.  Birth control information is one way.  Also, better survival among infants (good health care) will help; in poor countries, the only help you get in old age is from your children - the more you have, the better you live.  But if there's an alternative, like Social Security, children aren't as critical.

At the current rate, world populations will peak about the end of this century and then start a slow implosion.  Eventually the problem will become too few people rather than too many.  The problem for resource managers is to keep the world together until then.

 

12 hours ago, Ogbin said:

You want to change it so you can come and take what I have instead of paying for it. Like I said before..  Good luck with that!

Does ANYBODY need a billion dollars to live comfortably?  For that matter, does anybody need a million dollars to live comfortably?  That's one of the evils of capitalism that needs to be addressed.

Monopoly abuse is another.  For openers, let's break the monopoly on electric power.  Home-scale wind chargers have been in use for nearly a century.  We can use modern technology to increase their power and efficiency.  We can make it illegal for electric companies to charge fees for putting power from home systems back onto the grid.  There are dozens of possibilities.

But most important:  here in America we have billionaires with so much money they can't spend it all.  And we have children who go to bed hungry.  America will never be great again until we solve that problem.  We have six million people without health insurance.  America will never be great again until we solve THAT problem.  Our attitudes toward sex and unwed mothers make abortion a necessity, yet we fight against contraception.  America will never be great again until we solve that problem.  That's what capitalism has done to (not for) us.  We need to change that.

 

Converting to clean energy will save money.  Wind-generated electricity costs less than any other kind and solar is getting close.  We do not need tax money to convert.  That is being accomplished by using the price differential between various power sources.  Conservation saves money.  You can use it or burn more fuel that you have to pay for.  Your decision.

We will probably have to reduce the CO2 level in the air.  Right now the technology needed to do it is in its infancy.  There are some promising ideas:  turn it into a fuel and recycle it; sequester it in stable geological formations; sequester it in agricultural fields....  To apply these in their current form would be costly, but we probably have ten years before anything practical can be developed.  When we actually deploy them you won't even be aware of it.

Bread made with grain from a sequester field is exactly the same as bread made from grain from other fields.  USDA will encourage farmers to use sequestration by not paying CRP benefits on crops grown another way.

A new wind turbine can be brought on line without even a flicker of the lights.  Unless you look carefully you won't notice the slight reduction in price.

It sounds like you are threatening something because you think somebody is taking something from you.  The conversion process will be done at a cost savings.   I'd say take it or leave it, but your only real choice will be whether to pay the power bill or sit in the dark.  Nobody is forcing you to conserve energy; you can weather strip your house or pay for the extra heat.  Conversion of home heating will be done by taking gas-fired systems off the market.  When the old one breaks down, you can buy an electric one or install a fireplace (In some areas that is already illegal.).

The second phase:  reduction of CO2 in the atmosphere may have costs.  Do it will require huge projects, utterly beyond the capacity of individuals.  It will have to be done by governments and probably paid for with tax money.  If that's what happens, you can either pay your taxes or argue it with the IRS.

12 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 You see those Unicorns flying around that Rainbow over there? Pretty aren't they? Got bad news for ya.. Their not real  And neither are Magic Wands, You make it sound like we are all screwed no matter what. So just sit back and enjoy the end of the world. Why waist a front row seat?

I don't know what this has to do with anything.  Global warming caused by CO2 is a fact.  The rest is nothing more than possible technological solutions to the problem.

You have not been reading my posts.  I believe we can turn this problem around.  We can save the planet and ourselves.  Only despairing pessimists like yourself think we are all screwed.

Thirty years ago wind was an experimental idea.  Twelve years ago perovskites didn't exist.  Today we generate about 12% of our power from wind and solar.  We (US) will reach 25% WWS within three years.  We can reach 100% WWS by 2050.  What can we do tomorrow?

Doug

[Doug1029]

1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

We went from a few dozen wind turbines to over 3700.  In 2001 wind was generating less than 1% of the US' power needs.  Today it is generating 15%. 

That should be 10%.  Sorry about that.

Doug

[tmcom]

I was wrong, Doug is doing his war and peace number, and Brisbane, AU had its coldest day ever a few days ago, global warming, lol, more like global stupid.

[ChrLzs]

2 hours ago, tmcom said:

I was wrong, Doug is doing his war and peace number, and Brisbane, AU had its coldest day ever a few days ago, global warming, lol, more like global stupid.

Almost as stupid as those who don't understand weather versus climate - bwahahahahah, oh, how me and tmcom laughed at them idiotz!!!!

[Golden Duck]

5 hours ago, tmcom said:

I was wrong, Doug is doing his war and peace number, and Brisbane, AU had its coldest day ever a few days ago, global warming, lol, more like global stupid.

Coldest day ever?  Wrong again.  Illiterate and innumerate. 

 

[tmcom]

5 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Almost as stupid as those who don't understand weather versus climate - bwahahahahah, oh, how me and tmcom laughed at them idiotz!!!!

 

3 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Coldest day ever?  Wrong again.  Illiterate and innumerate. 

 

US coldest winter, Brisbane coldest day, india kills 50 people due to cold, we Vic has its coldest Feb, for at least 15 years, Iceland is gaining ice, but that is weather not climate, lol the earth is flat!

[Essan]

More proof the world's temperature is plummeting as a new catastrophic ice age takes hold  

https://weather.com/news/climate/news/2020-03-13-second-warmest-winter-on-earth-noaa-finds

[Doug1029]

7 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Almost as stupid as those who don't understand weather versus climate - bwahahahahah, oh, how me and tmcom laughed at them idiotz!!!!

 

5 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Coldest day ever?  Wrong again.  Illiterate and innumerate. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Essan said:

More proof the world's temperature is plummeting as a new catastrophic ice age takes hold  

https://weather.com/news/climate/news/2020-03-13-second-warmest-winter-on-earth-noaa-finds

You guys didn't leave anything for me to add!

Doug

[Golden Duck]

9 hours ago, tmcom said:

 

US coldest winter, Brisbane coldest day, india kills 50 people due to cold, we Vic has its coldest Feb, for at least 15 years, Iceland is gaining ice, but that is weather not climate, lol the earth is flat!

You really do have a problem with comprehension. Former Ad-Man Rowan Dean says "I'm told Brisbane had one of the coldest days on record".  He doesn't support this rumour by peddling a fact.  It's a old marketing strategy to avoid outright lies.

We had one of the coldest days this year; but, it was still t-shirt weather.

You've been told the difference between climate and weather; but, you can't even report the weather correctly.

One swallow dies not a summer make.  But, you keep swallowing the rhetoric of Rowan from Marketing.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Golden Duck

[tmcom]

5 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

You really do have a problem with comprehension. Former Ad-Man Rowan Dean says "I'm told Brisbane had one of the coldest days on record".  He doesn't support this rumour by peddling a fact.  It's a old marketing strategy to avoid outright lies.

We had one of the coldest days this year; but, it was still t-shirt weather.

You've been told the difference between climate and weather; but, you can't even report the weather correctly.

One swallow dies not a summer make.  But, you keep swallowing the rhetoric of Rowan from Marketing.

Lol, of course it is, Brisbane also had its coldest day in 2018, and l am pretty sure that was supposed to be one of the hottest years in history.

Of course l can't substiante that since the BOM and Google are both on the bottle, but l have followed him and others on sky and they only give facts. Sure Rowen, presents his video's in a talking to 5 year olds, as a humorous way, (and probably through necessity).

I have been told, blah, blah, and you have been told by me, (and him) that sea levels are not rising and iceland is gaining ice, not losing it, and we are having a worldwide cold blast.

How can we have the impending disaster if the planet won't play ball?

It seems that you and others will have to pray harder to keep your beliefs going in the midst of a cooling world, but Flat Earthers manage it, so...

[Golden Duck]

13 minutes ago, tmcom said:

Lol, of course it is, Brisbane also had its coldest day in 2018, and l am pretty sure that was supposed to be one of the hottest years in history.

Of course l can't substiante that since the BOM and Google are both on the bottle, but l have followed him and others on sky and they only give facts. Sure Rowen, presents his video's in a talking to 5 year olds, as a humorous way, (and probably through necessity).

I have been told, blah, blah, and you have been told by me, (and him) that sea levels are not rising and iceland is gaining ice, not losing it, and we are having a worldwide cold blast.

How can we have the impending disaster if the planet won't play ball?

It seems that you and others will have to pray harder to keep your beliefs going in the midst of a cooling world, but Flat Earthers manage it, so...

Wrong again @tmcom - about ten years wrong.  The coldest day I've experienced, in Brisbane, caught me by suprise.  It was my second winter here and I didn't believe cold days happenef here. The previous winter had a day in the 30s and students were walking around UQ in tank tops.

Being followed by you is a feather in nobody's cap.  Nevertheless, Rowan from Marketing and facts are rarely fellow traveller's. Arctic conditions in Sydney?  It's just rhetoric if not outright rubbish.  Remember, if he needs to speak to his audience at the level of a five-year-old, his target audience is you.

You touched on fallacy that you blindly believe.  What is "the record" if there is no record that you believe?

Edited March 17, 2020 by Golden Duck

[tmcom]

6 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Wrong again @tmcom - about ten years wrong.  The coldest day I've experienced, in Brisbane, caught me by suprise.  It was my second winter here and I didn't believe cold days happenef here. The previous winter had a day in the 30s and students were walking around UQ in tank tops.

Being followed by you is a feather in nobody's cap.  Nevertheless, Rowan from Marketing and facts are rarely fellow traveller's. Arctic conditions in Sydney?  It's just rhetoric if not outright rubbish.  Remember, if he needs to speak to his audience at the level of a five-year-old, his target audience is you.

You touched on fallacy that you blindly believe.  What is "the record" if there is no record that you believe?

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-wakes-to-coldest-2018-day-records-tumble-across-queensland-20180714-p4zrgy.html

I guess you weren't up that day, praying under a wind turbine, catching the occasion stray bird?

[Golden Duck]

26 minutes ago, tmcom said:

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-wakes-to-coldest-2018-day-records-tumble-across-queensland-20180714-p4zrgy.html

I guess you weren't up that day, praying under a wind turbine, catching the occasion stray bird?

Oh dear!  Your comprehension level seems to be through the floor.

It says it right there in the first sentence:

Quote

Brisbane has woken up to its coldest day of the year

"...coldest day of the year..."

Take some time to try and let that sink in.

[ChrLzs]

tmcom, it's even in the dam title, it says " ...coldest-2018-day..."  You are not that stupid (are you?), so it's your usual attempt to misinform?

Plus those rabid bleatings are not covering the fact that you don't understand the most simple fundamental of this topic, namely:

WEATHER is different to CLIMATE.

THAT was the important point that you have utterly and deliberately ignored.

 

And I don't want to complicate matters for you, but others may be reading....  Localised WEATHER variations, both cold and hot, will arise FROM global warming.  That is well understood by those familiar with climatology and meteorology, which is why tmcom doesn't understand.