Could consciousness pervade the universe ?

[+joc]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

2 hours ago, joc said:

I know it is not true.  There is no evidence that it is true.  Anecdotes from thousands of people who are all on the internet isn't proof of anything.  It is the brain that causes consciousness...any idea you have other than that is a conception of your brain as well.

https://newatlas.com/science/consciousness-switch-brain-region/

That's very interesting...I'm pretty sure the central lateral thalamus is part of the brain is it not?

[Helen of Annoy]

7 minutes ago, joc said:

The question my dear Helen of VeryAnnoying is whether consciousness leaves the brain and body and is independent after death.  Note...I never said NDEs don't happen.  I said very matter of factly that consciousness is local to the brain.  I don't care who says what about what who saw or didn't see while having a near death experience.

In the first place...they weren't dead...NDE is an acronym for NEAR death.  However...where are the VDEs who have ever reported such a thing?  Very Dead Experience.  Oh yes there are quite a few.  A once revolutionary procedure used in some heart operations involves removing every single drop of blood from the patients body, then lowering the body temperature to around 54 degrees...the blood is kept oxygenated and 'alive' in a vat where it eventually is transfused into the patient who then is 'brought back to life'.

Would you say a body that is lying on an operating table with zero blood, and a temperature of 54 degrees F is alive or near death.  No.  Very, very dead!  Very dead body!  

If consciousness was non-local to the brain, why haven't any of these patients, once revived, told similar stories of NDE patients.  They were certainly much deader than any NDE patient.  Splain that one sunshine!

Objectively, you'll have to wait until said procedure is common enough so that you can see if there will be reports of NDEs among the thousands of successfully revived patients. 

Since NDE is still controversial topic, thanks to hysteric materialists, who, by the way, obviously have psychologically not quite healthy motivation for their extremism - no extremism is ever healthy, especially not aggressive one - it's more than realistic to expect many NDEs go unreported. 

 

Also, the conversation would be much more pleasing if you could tone it down a bit. No need to get all worked up, it's not like I can force you to live with any less dreary beliefs than you want.  

[XenoFish]

[Helen of Annoy]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So nothing. There's nothing. Once the brain turns to goo you no longer exist. No soul, no self. Just a festering corpse. There are no other channels. Once you are 6 foot under dead, you're dead. 

And the relatives are dancing on your grave. 

I'm trying to say that whatever pleases you is fine with me. But it's rather interesting that you've got such a strong need to get constant reaffirmation of your supposedly so firm belief. 

Brain does turn to goo, quite fast. But can you really know if there's soul? No, not really. It's up to each one to decide for themselves. 

For me personally, consciousness is very certainly not the product of brain chemistry. And the self gets preserved after the death of physical body. I've got my own, personal proof. It is not valid for anyone else, naturally. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

And the relatives are dancing on your grave. 

I'm trying to say that whatever pleases you is fine with me. But it's rather interesting that you've got such a strong need to get constant reaffirmation of your supposedly so firm belief. 

Brain does turn to goo, quite fast. But can you really know if there's soul? No, not really. It's up to each one to decide for themselves. 

For me personally, consciousness is very certainly not the product of brain chemistry. And the self gets preserved after the death of physical body. I've got my own, personal proof. It is not valid for anyone else, naturally. 

[+joc]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

Objectively, you'll have to wait until said procedure is common enough so that you can see if there will be reports of NDEs among the thousands of successfully revived patients. 

Since NDE is still controversial topic, thanks to hysteric materialists, who, by the way, obviously have psychologically not quite healthy motivation for their extremism - no extremism is ever healthy, especially not aggressive one - it's more than realistic to expect many NDEs go unreported. 

 

Also, the conversation would be much more pleasing if you could tone it down a bit. No need to get all worked up, it's not like I can force you to live with any less dreary beliefs than you want.  

If my tone bothers you that much you could always put me on ignore I suppose. It's been pretty well defined that NDE experiences are not a result of being near death...they are a result of the brain being revived.  When the brain is without oxygen for a period of time it kind of goes numb...that's because it is dying.  When the blood flow starts back up...it is an ecstatic unleashing of a lot of chemicals in the brain.  It has already been shown that DMT has been found in the Spinal Fluid and therefore is probably in the brain as well. So, it is not amazing at all that these people would have very real hallucinatory experiences.  How you get from that to AfterLife is beyond me.  It is a belief thing, nothing more.

[Helen of Annoy]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I know you feel defeated, but it's actually what your 'unsatisfied customer' approach is looking for. So... you're welcome. 

[Helen of Annoy]

5 minutes ago, joc said:

If my tone bothers you that much you could always put me on ignore I suppose. It's been pretty well defined that NDE experiences are not a result of being near death...they are a result of the brain being revived.  When the brain is without oxygen for a period of time it kind of goes numb...that's because it is dying.  When the blood flow starts back up...it is an ecstatic unleashing of a lot of chemicals in the brain.  It has already been shown that DMT has been found in the Spinal Fluid and therefore is probably in the brain as well. So, it is not amazing at all that these people would have very real hallucinatory experiences.  How you get from that to AfterLife is beyond me.  It is a belief thing, nothing more.

Congratulations. 

Everybody and their aunt heard you and understood you the first zillion times you said the same. That is your extract from currently popular hard-line materialist theories and it's extremely, naively simplified and completely wrong. 

Because, as I said, but I won't sit here whole night repeating it, I've got my own personal proof. I couldn't care less how the science will or won't explain it. You'll agree with me if and when you get your proof. Yes, it is that weirdly personal. 

 

Leave me be now, I'm done for today. 

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I know you feel defeated, but it's actually what your 'unsatisfied customer' approach is looking for. So... you're welcome. 

No. I'm bored. This always go back to that "boo, materialism is wrong." counter. The ancient masters knew more, blah, blah, blah, etc. 

If you want to believe in some afterlife the hell if I care. If you're a good girl you'll get into heaven, okay. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by XenoFish

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Leave me be now, I'm done for today. 

Need to recharge so you can take the holy high road again?!?

[Helen of Annoy]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No. I'm bored. This always go back to that "boo, materialism is wrong." counter. The ancient master knew more, blah, blah, blah, etc. 

If you want to believe in some afterlife the hell if I care. If you're a good girl you'll get into heaven, okay. 

Your brain seems to operate with stereotypes alone. Ever tried having an original thought? 

 

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Need to recharge so you can take the holy high road again?!?

No, I've got some primal urges to satisfy  

 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

Your brain seems to operate with stereotypes alone. Ever tried having an original thought? 

 

No, I've got some primal urges to satisfy  

 

Can you come up with a better insult? That one is old and tired. You need new material. 

I don't care about your urges. 

[Helen of Annoy]

 

 

 

[Dejarma]

26 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No, I've got some primal urges to satisfy  

why don't you try haggis hunting.. good for the soul

[Festina]

4 hours ago, joc said:

If my tone bothers you that much you could always put me on ignore I suppose. It's been pretty well defined that NDE experiences are not a result of being near death...they are a result of the brain being revived.  When the brain is without oxygen for a period of time it kind of goes numb...that's because it is dying.  When the blood flow starts back up...it is an ecstatic unleashing of a lot of chemicals in the brain.  It has already been shown that DMT has been found in the Spinal Fluid and therefore is probably in the brain as well. So, it is not amazing at all that these people would have very real hallucinatory experiences.  How you get from that to AfterLife is beyond me.  It is a belief thing, nothing more.

No, no, no....!  D+

[+joc]

4 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Congratulations. 

Everybody and their aunt heard you and understood you the first zillion times you said the same. That is your extract from currently popular hard-line materialist theories and it's extremely, naively simplified and completely wrong. 

Because, as I said, but I won't sit here whole night repeating it, I've got my own personal proof. I couldn't care less how the science will or won't explain it. You'll agree with me if and when you get your proof. Yes, it is that weirdly personal. 

 

Leave me be now, I'm done for today. 

My dear sweet, beautiful, always loving and always kind and never annoying Helen whom I adore,

Materialistic Theories...what is that?    Materialistic....of matter.  That's right darling, I believe that matter exists.  It's a material world.  Get used to it doll.  It isn't ever going to change.  Sweet dreams snookems.  

[Habitat]

This website is a minor tragedy, I think. It has become a refuge for people who are ostensibly invested in a range of negative opinions, that simply cannot be verified, either in practice or principle. That in itself, is why I simply don't believe they are being genuine, in their stated conviction. Only a complete fool would continue to argue a case that cannot ever be closed, in the favour of the positions they claim to believe in. You just would not persist. Beneath the bluster, they don't really believe it themselves. Not in their heart of hearts.

[Crazy Horse]

11 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Because their senses are still functioning, while their consciousness is glitching. 

You haven't answered my question.  How can someone's senses be able to tell what is going on in a room away from their own?

You try it now, with your awaken state, non glitchy consciousness. Tell me what is happening in the room up the corridor, it should be easy right?

[Crazy Horse]

11 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Your senses are still working and whatever gaps in memory can and are filled in the blank by others. So it is very, very, very, very, very easy to create a false memory around an event. I've answered and I'm bored. 

There is nothing false about it.

These memories are later collaborated by nurses and friends, family etc.

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, joc said:

The evidence isn't overwhelming.  It isn't even evidence.  You are on the same train ride to nowhere as Papageorge.  All the anecdotal evidence in the world doesn't mean a damn thing as far as proof.  You cannot prove any of it.  I on the other hand do not have to prove anything.   I don't know if they are lying or not.  But anecdotal is anecdotal is anecdotal. 

One cannot prove a negative under any circumstance.  But the laws of physics and common sense are on the side of thought that I embrace.  

Anecdotal evidence that can later be verified as actually happening by independent witnesses, time and time again, is solid evidence of something.

I would suggest of the mind being non-local to the brain.

If you have another theory then please do share.

 

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, joc said:

If my tone bothers you that much you could always put me on ignore I suppose. It's been pretty well defined that NDE experiences are not a result of being near death...they are a result of the brain being revived.  When the brain is without oxygen for a period of time it kind of goes numb...that's because it is dying.  When the blood flow starts back up...it is an ecstatic unleashing of a lot of chemicals in the brain.  It has already been shown that DMT has been found in the Spinal Fluid and therefore is probably in the brain as well. So, it is not amazing at all that these people would have very real hallucinatory experiences.  How you get from that to AfterLife is beyond me.  It is a belief thing, nothing more.

Its quite simple Joc.

The anecdotal evidence of hundreds of NDErs, which are later confirmed by hundreds of independent witnesses, demonstrate, or at least suggest, that the mind/consciousness is non-local to the brain. Therefore, if the mind is non-dependant upon the brain, this would again suggest that consciousness continues after death.

Mainstream material science is only a few hundred years old. Before that there were different Mystery Schools and gnostic groups who could achieve this same experience only consciously and with years of preparation.

The fact that materialist science cannot answer such questions, suggests to me that it is only a matter of time until mainstream science starts to question itself.

But that would take an honest approach to life and oneself

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

No. I'm bored. This always go back to that "boo, materialism is wrong." counter. The ancient masters knew more, blah, blah, blah, etc. 

If you want to believe in some afterlife the hell if I care. If you're a good girl you'll get into heaven, okay. 

There are NDE, that are really, abhorrently terrifying and horrific. Just as the love and peace is nothing like anything experienced on Earth, so is the opposite condition..

But you don't believe in any of this stuff.

And yes, the ancients knew a lot more then we do. Materialistic science is only a little baby compared to our human existence, and it shows by your childish behaviour.

 

 

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, joc said:

The question my dear Helen of VeryAnnoying is whether consciousness leaves the brain and body and is independent after death.  Note...I never said NDEs don't happen.  I said very matter of factly that consciousness is local to the brain.  I don't care who says what about what who saw or didn't see while having a near death experience.

In the first place...they weren't dead...NDE is an acronym for NEAR death.  However...where are the VDEs who have ever reported such a thing?  Very Dead Experience.  Oh yes there are quite a few.  A once revolutionary procedure used in some heart operations involves removing every single drop of blood from the patients body, then lowering the body temperature to around 54 degrees...the blood is kept oxygenated and 'alive' in a vat where it eventually is transfused into the patient who then is 'brought back to life'.

Would you say a body that is lying on an operating table with zero blood, and a temperature of 54 degrees F is alive or near death.  No.  Very, very dead!  Very dead body!  

If consciousness was non-local to the brain, why haven't any of these patients, once revived, told similar stories of NDE patients.  They were certainly much deader than any NDE patient.  Splain that one sunshine!

Of course you don't care. Because that would go against you current beliefs, and you obviously are not honest enough to simple follow the evidence.

That's very simple to explain and inline with all spiritual traditions.

The soul/consciousness, has now left the building...

[Helen of Annoy]

9 hours ago, Dejarma said:

why don't you try haggis hunting.. good for the soul

I prefer shredded nihilists in sour sauce. 

[Helen of Annoy]

5 hours ago, joc said:

My dear sweet, beautiful, always loving and always kind and never annoying Helen whom I adore,

Materialistic Theories...what is that?    Materialistic....of matter.  That's right darling, I believe that matter exists.  It's a material world.  Get used to it doll.  It isn't ever going to change.  Sweet dreams snookems.  

My dear fellow ape, we don't even know how anything in this material emanation works, and you would like to claim you know there's nothing except it?   

How do you know? You took a personal look within the matter and outside the Universe?

I'm trying to say that it's so unwise to be so certain about materialistic supremacy in things that are not just out of material reach, but out of material concepts.   

Kissy, kissy, don't you miss me. 

I'll be back.