Could consciousness pervade the universe ?

[+joc]

8 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Joc, my only goal is to know the truth for myself. I really don't mind what that Ultimate Truth actually is.

My only goal is to know the 'actual' truth....Ultimate Truth has no meaning to me.  If something is true...then it is true regardless of what one believes...right?  That's the only place I have ever been coming from...what is the 'actual' truth.  Okay...from one perspective we can say...no one knows what the actual truth is...but from MY perspective...one can know what the actual truth is if nothing else than by eliminating the things that we know are NOT truth.  With NDEs...the truth is...they never actually 'died'.  Their brains came back...so...we know for certain that they didn't experience an afterlife because their brains were never truly dead.  So, to me, what they saw or didn't see or heard or didn't hear is of no consequence...no one knows what happened.  But...we know one thing for certain...they didn't die, because truly 'dead' people don't come back to life..that's why we say Dead not Near Death.

[+joc]

4 hours ago, Festina said:

How so?  

He’s been with the same woman for over thirty years when he could have easily traded up for newer super models.  Seems to be a faithful husband.  He’s fit and eats healthy food, works his butt off and is self made by his own merits  — no inheritance was he given.  Accepts his receding hairline and graying hair with dignity and he seems to be apolitical.  He’s not best bassist on the planet but as a songwriter he’s top notch.  He also helps other aspiring musicians — and appears to be very unselfish all around.  So what’s your problem? 

 

 

I'm not sure really...I've always thought he was a flake.  Since I can't remember why I thought that...I'll just go with what you said...he sounds like a good guy. See how easy that is?

[Festina]

8 minutes ago, joc said:

I'm not sure really...I've always thought he was a flake.  Since I can't remember why I thought that...I'll just go with what you said...he sounds like a good guy. See how easy that is?

It’s okay, I didn’t like him much at the beginning either...but I didn’t know why exactly.  And then I listened ....with new ears.  Now I love him! 

 

 

 

 

[Festina]

25 minutes ago, joc said:

My only goal is to know the 'actual' truth....Ultimate Truth has no meaning to me.  If something is true...then it is true regardless of what one believes...right?  That's the only place I have ever been coming from...what is the 'actual' truth.  Okay...from one perspective we can say...no one knows what the actual truth is...but from MY perspective...one can know what the actual truth is if nothing else than by eliminating the things that we know are NOT truth.  With NDEs...the truth is...they never actually 'died'.  Their brains came back...so...we know for certain that they didn't experience an afterlife because their brains were never truly dead.  So, to me, what they saw or didn't see or heard or didn't hear is of no consequence...no one knows what happened.  But...we know one thing for certain...they didn't die, because truly 'dead' people don't come back to life..that's why we say Dead not Near Death.

No one really dies — there is no death, what seems so is transition.  

You'll find out....when you croak.

 Then you will know.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Festina

[Festina]

56 minutes ago, joc said:

I'm not sure really...I've always thought he was a flake.  Since I can't remember why I thought that...I'll just go with what you said...he sounds like a good guy. See how easy that is?

Great song and on topic......

 

[lightly]

I'm unsure about a lot of things...  But OOBexperiences  do seem to occur often enough for me to legitimately question if our conciousness is strictly confined to our brains.    After all, energy is everywhere, is it always strictly defined and contained?

i think it leaks.   I also think there may be 'shortcuts' in spacetime....or even instances of energy making spacetime completely irrelevant.  ???

these are just my thoughts and beliefs.  As is my firm belief that the manifest is born of the unmanifest. Which is of course indefineable...unexplainable...and so, is also completely exasperating !       I'm sure that  " something" is entirely the wrong word...but I believe there is 'something' more fundamental than physicality.  ...which makes physicality possible.     Oh well. 

[lightly]

On February 16, 2020 at 5:04 AM, joc said:

Anecdotal evidence is NOT evidence of anything.  He said/she said...nothing more.  Many people have claimed to have been abducted...should I believe them? Do you?

I don't and quite frankly this conversation is going nowhere.  The bottom line is...if it cannot be proven with proper scientific method...I'm not buying it.  

From what I see...You think your belief system is superior to anyone else's that disagrees with you.  You buy anonymous anecdote.  I don't I buy scientific proof.  Kind of what most of the Real World does.  I am not in the 98% ....I am in the 2%.   I don't follow the sheep.  If you can't prove it...it's worth nothing to me.  Proof is only for the positive because it is impossible to prove a negative.  Disbelief is not belief.  Belief is a positive attribute.  You must believe Something.  If you don't believe Something, whatever that something is, it does not equate to belief...it equates to what it is disbelief.  You  confuse the two as the same...they are not.

I think I'm beginning to understand.   So, your saying it is impossible to prove that God does NOT exist.   

( I'm just teasing you )  

Edited February 17, 2020 by lightly

[Helen of Annoy]

58 minutes ago, lightly said:

I'm unsure about a lot of things...  But OOBexperiences  do seem to occur often enough for me to legitimately question if our conciousness is strictly confined to our brains.    After all, energy is everywhere, is it always strictly defined and contained?

i think it leaks.   I also think there may be 'shortcuts' in spacetime....or even instances of energy making spacetime completely irrelevant.  ???

these are just my thoughts and beliefs.  As is my firm belief that the manifest is born of the unmanifest. Which is of course indefineable...unexplainable...and so, is also completely exasperating !       I'm sure that  " something" is entirely the wrong word...but I believe there is 'something' more fundamental than physicality.  ...which makes physicality possible.     Oh well. 

I too have that problem with lacking vocabulary for the... abovestuff or far-out-so-close-inside-stuff... I mean, in my own, first language too, not just in English   

 

Oh, yes, OOBEs too, the closest to NDEs a living person can get.

And dreams that later did happen in the real life. 

There're so many of those seemingly little, personal insights, that, combined, lead to pretty certain conclusion that... we don't know   

We probably can't even know in this form, at this stage of human development, but we are going somewhere *wiggles* 

[lightly]

..   Removal of rather insulting and unkind remark to maintain peace and harmony in what is, for some, a dead and completely uninvolved universe. .  

Edited February 17, 2020 by lightly

[Crazy Horse]

On 2/16/2020 at 6:31 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

Pluto, no less... they're exaggerating, you're not further out than Neptune   At least that's where I remember you from, never saw you on Pluto   

 

Personally, I do believe material existence is a sort of kindergarten for souls. I've got no idea how exactly it works, of course, but I'm under strong impression we are indeed here to start learning to learn, to get jolted into full existence. Hence all the pain, I guess. We'd stay idle in idle conditions. Maybe. We'll see. 

So, while I'm monumentally unsure how it works, I'm very certain, both on intuitive and logical level, that this life is neither coincidental nor meaningless. It leads me, again on both levels, to the conclusion that the Universe, whose part we are, cannot be dumb and random. Not to mention that That, that set the Universe in motion must be very much aware of what It does. 

NDEs, synchronicities, little personal premonitions everyone has, telepathic events, all these phenomena are pointing out to the fact that there's much, much more than matter alone.

The most amusing angle of these, so called paranormal (what's para in that part of normal?) phenomena is that the more relaxed while opened to them you are, easier and more often they come to you. Or, if you rather wouldn't bother with that, they cease. To me personally, that is the evidence that the Universe is not only conscious, but also communicates with us. 

 

Speaking of communication, it's very pleasant to communicate with you. Thank you for being you. We should drop down here to Earth more often    

 

Actually, a kindergarten makes sense.

Folks do learn through experience, expanding their consciousness and understanding.

And the drama....

But I sometimes wonder what it is going to take to shift this present paradigm, from the materialistic, back towards the Spiritual? 

And btw, I don't remember seeing you on Neptune, but I think we met in Aldi once....

 

[Crazy Horse]

On 2/16/2020 at 7:00 PM, WanderingFool0 said:

Interesting take. I would say that I think the code is at the same time interactive and when one is paying attention it actually adds more things to pay attention too, sort of like a game. If one doesn't bother paying attention it doesn't really try to play with them.

I would add that one has to be careful with synchronicity too though, because much like the gemetria of the kabbalists, once can eventually with over study and observation can draw a connection between everything and get lost.

I think the code, or Spirit, is absolutely interactive, according to how much an individual is looking, asking,and desiring to know the truth. 

But, I also see karma as being an infallible law. One that will keep-on trying to grab your attention, especially if you are on an immoral, greedy and hateful path.

But I kind of disagree with your last sentence. I mean, folks do get lost all the time, probably due to a lack of a bigger picture type thing, which in my opinion, is a direct result of a lack of virtuous behaviour. But I do believe that certain individuals can read the world around them, mainly the unusual events. Personally, anything out-of-the-ordinary makes me question it!

[lightly]

On February 16, 2020 at 5:04 AM, joc said:

Anecdotal evidence is NOT evidence of anything.  He said/she said...nothing more.  Many people have claimed to have been abducted...should I believe them? Do you?

I don't and quite frankly this conversation is going nowhere.  The bottom line is...if it cannot be proven with proper scientific method...I'm not buying it.  

From what I see...You think your belief system is superior to anyone else's that disagrees with you.  You buy anonymous anecdote.  I don't I buy scientific proof.  Kind of what most of the Real World does.  I am not in the 98% ....I am in the 2%.   I don't follow the sheep.  If you can't prove it...it's worth nothing to me.  Proof is only for the positive because it is impossible to prove a negative.  Disbelief is not belief.  Belief is a positive attribute.  You must believe Something.  If you don't believe Something, whatever that something is, it does not equate to belief...it equates to what it is disbelief.  You  confuse the two as the same...they are not.

Could Democritus of 400 BC Greece (the 'philosopher' who coined the word Atomos,and the concept of atoms being basic components of matter)  have "proven" it to you?   NO,   and yet, he was right!   I strongly suspect you would have been saying the idea was worthless ..and unproven with proper scientific method?  Possibly demanding to see proper peer reviewed research papers  ?   Many ideas which begin as beliefs ,in the end, become accepted as facts.   ?

Edited February 20, 2020 by lightly

[+joc]

8 hours ago, lightly said:

Could Democritus of 400 BC Greece (the 'philosopher' who coined the word Atomos,and the concept of atoms being basic components of matter)  have "proven" it to you?   NO,   and yet, he was right!   I strongly suspect you would have been saying the idea was worthless ..and unproven with proper scientific method?  Possibly demanding to see proper peer reviewed research papers  ?   Many ideas which begin as beliefs ,in the end, become accepted as facts.   ?

Democritus wondered, for example, what would happen if you cut a chunk of matter—such as a piece of cheese into smaller and smaller pieces. He thought that a point would be reached at which the cheese could not be cut into still smaller pieces. He called these pieces atomos, which means “uncuttable” in Greek. This is where the modern term atom comes from.

Could you explain how this has anything to do with belief?  It has to do with thought process and following that thought process to a reasonable conclusive end.  The reasonable conclusive end of the Consciousness question is that it is created by the brain and dies with the death of the brain.

[lightly]

14 hours ago, joc said:

Democritus wondered, for example, what would happen if you cut a chunk of matter—such as a piece of cheese into smaller and smaller pieces. He thought that a point would be reached at which the cheese could not be cut into still smaller pieces. He called these pieces atomos, which means “uncuttable” in Greek. This is where the modern term atom comes from.

Could you explain how this has anything to do with belief?  It has to do with thought process and following that thought process to a reasonable conclusive end.  The reasonable conclusive end of the Consciousness question is that it is created by the brain and dies with the death of the brain.

Ah.... I was just curious as to what your "take" on that might be.  I suspected  there might be more to that 'story' than I was aware of..   So...thanks for the information.       As for ..Could I explain how this has anything to do with belief?  Not especially I guess , it had something to do with ideas which are poo pooed  and dismissed out of hand as worthless and completely Unscientific, later being confirmed as Fact.   But, never mind.... I most humbly and grovelingly apologize to the depth and breadth of my being.          

Edited February 21, 2020 by lightly

[Helen of Annoy]

33 minutes ago, lightly said:

Ah.... I was just curious as to what your "take" on that might be.  I suspected  there might be more to that 'story' than I was aware of..   So...thanks for the information.       As for ..Could I explain how this has anything to do with belief?  Not especially I guess , it had something to do with ideas which are poo pooed  and dismissed out of hand as worthless and completely Unscientific, later being confirmed as Fact.   But, never mind.... I most humbly and grovelingly apologize to the depth and breadth of my being.          

most humbly and grovelingly...  I must remember that, for future use  

 

The cheese atoms are a good example of intuitive understanding, which had to wait to be proven much later, when the science somewhat caught up with the intuition.

There's approximately 7 billion humans currently alive, most of them not denying their intuitive conclusion that there's more than mere matter flying randomly around. We can hope, I hope, that we won't have to wait for few more centuries or thousands of years, before the science catches up with the intuitive ideas of consciousness pervading - or actually creating - the existence, Universe included. 

[Crazy Horse]

15 hours ago, joc said:

Democritus wondered, for example, what would happen if you cut a chunk of matter—such as a piece of cheese into smaller and smaller pieces. He thought that a point would be reached at which the cheese could not be cut into still smaller pieces. He called these pieces atomos, which means “uncuttable” in Greek. This is where the modern term atom comes from.

Could you explain how this has anything to do with belief?  It has to do with thought process and following that thought process to a reasonable conclusive end.  The reasonable conclusive end of the Consciousness question is that it is created by the brain and dies with the death of the brain.

If that's your perception, if that's your belief, then that is going to be your experience of life, and your truth.

Its lucky I can pray for guidance whenever I seek an answer from this "Universal Consciousness".

Well, that's my experience anyway!

 

[+joc]

8 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If that's your perception, if that's your belief, then that is going to be your experience of life, and your truth.

Its lucky I can pray for guidance whenever I seek an answer from this "Universal Consciousness".

Well, that's my experience anyway!

 

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn about experience.

[Crazy Horse]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn about experience.

That's fine, I mean its your choice and in all honesty, I wish you nothing but love, happiness, and the truth.

[lightly]

7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

most humbly and grovelingly...  I must remember that, for future use  

 

The cheese atoms are a good example of intuitive understanding, which had to wait to be proven much later, when the science somewhat caught up with the intuition.

There's approximately 7 billion humans currently alive, most of them not denying their intuitive conclusion that there's more than mere matter flying randomly around. We can hope, I hope, that we won't have to wait for few more centuries or thousands of years, before the science catches up with the intuitive ideas of consciousness pervading - or actually creating - the existence, Universe included. 

    ..well, as joc informed us, Democritus didn't actually conceptualize the atom ,as we know it.   His idea was as much philosophical as scientific ?     ( I better view that link joc posted;)

.   But Ya. I hear ya ..    It's hard to put into words.  ..as Bob Dylan said..." And you Know something's happening ....but you don't know what it is ".       I guess I feel a little like that sometimes.    But ya,to me too, the universe seems much more like a creation , or even a Being !   or both...   than an accident .     To me, it is it's own Living Proof !    Nutty, I know,. I should be ashamed of such willful ignorance I guess..   

[lightly]

I couldn't get joc's link to work..so,out of curiosity, I went to some Stanford U. site, discussing Democritus, .one of his teachers from which he learned the atom idea, and some others from that time period who became known as "atomists" ..who shared similar,and differing views on the structure of the universe,matter, even thought.   They may have been some of the first materialists ...  They had some odd ideas, like solid atoms with no space in them,  and I think it was Democritus who reasoned that "somethIng" must come from "nothing".   Personally ,I like that idea.  But they had some very advanced ideas...not so completely out of line with theorys held today.     They were a bit more complex in their thinking than cutting cheese.

and now, since I must say something on topic...as I said, they may have been some of the first materialists and probably would have liked the notion of our consciousness as a strictly physical thing ..which would cease to exist upon death.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, lightly said:

I couldn't get joc's link to work..so,out of curiosity, I went to some Stanford U. site, discussing Democritus, .one of his teachers from which he learned the atom idea, and some others from that time period who became known as "atomists" ..who shared similar,and differing views on the structure of the universe,matter, even thought.   They may have been some of the first materialists ...  They had some odd ideas, like solid atoms with no space in them,  and I think it was Democritus who reasoned that "somethIng" must come from "nothing".   Personally ,I like that idea.  But they had some very advanced ideas...not so completely out of line with theorys held today.     They were a bit more complex in their thinking than cutting cheese.

and now, since I must say something on topic...as I said, they may have been some of the first materialists and probably would have liked the notion of our consciousness as a strictly physical thing ..which would cease to exist upon death.

How can you trust a philosopher whose greatest achievement was cutting cheese? 

Kidding. 

I don't think they had anyone back then who would come up with the idea of matter alone. Materialism is such a weird idea... but some people always have to outdo everyone else and from healthy distancing from superstition they managed to arrive to denial of anything that's not palpable matter. From healthy refusal of misuse of religion to denial of any meaning or sense.   

[psyche101]

Incredible how this thread has turned into a psychic sideshow. 

Does anyone read as opposed to making up airy fairy crap these days?

All this talk of thinking about the big questions without any actual thought!  

 

[Helen of Annoy]

On 2/25/2020 at 9:45 AM, psyche101 said:

Incredible how this thread has turned into a psychic sideshow. 

Does anyone read as opposed to making up airy fairy crap these days?

All this talk of thinking about the big questions without any actual thought!  

 

Why so bitter? And so arrogant? 

It's illogical to be certain about the nature of the Universe, possibility of consciousness included. It's not a question that has 'scientific' answer yet, since science has no tools yet to deal with such question. 

It leads me into logical conclusion that regarding possible consciousness pervading Universe, 'airy fairy' talk (personal opinions based on intuition) has more credibility than science - at the moment - since we are conscious and can recognize it in others. While science hasn't yet proven what consciousness is, let alone whom possesses it.   

[XenoFish]

On 2/16/2020 at 8:09 PM, Festina said:

No one really dies — there is no death, what seems so is transition.  

From being a person to becoming potting soil. 

[Duke Wellington]

Its easy to figure out mind has primacy.

Change your thought processes and changes happen in your life.