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Could consciousness pervade the universe ?

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psyche101
2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Is OJs life finished yet, does he live a contented, happy and joyful life right now, will he regret his actions once his last breath is taken? Just because a person appears to have escaped karma, it means nothing. Karma lands when the conditions are right, perhaps that is at the point of death, perhaps that is at the point of re-birth. 

Utter nonsense. Bad people get away with stuff everyday. They are driving Lamborghini's and living in mansions. And they will get buried in a gold coffin. You're kidding yourself. There is no universal justice, kindness is usually taken for weakness in this dog eat dog world. 

2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And, nobody cares about men killing themselves? What utter tosh. 

What's the statistic?

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Habitat
9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

And they will get buried in a gold coffin.

Let me know when and where and we'll get an excavator.

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psyche101
2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

He didn't give-up killing and robbing until karma came a knocking and humbled his sorry ****.

That's not how I remember it. He tried to bring happiness to the world. It took his kindness for weakness and he was pushed over the edge. That's when things changed. He was accepted after the violence started.

2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Martin Luther king never gave up, nor did Gandhi, or Christ or Buddha.

Which one of those do you feel you identify with?

2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Let me tell you something. Anyone who is on the wrong path, karma will gently remind them of it. If that person continues, then the reminders get louder. If they still continue, then a serious illness, a car wreck, a marriage break-up, or something terrible for that person arrives as the wake-up call. Karma knows exactly which buttons to press. Anybody who has any level of mindfulness will realise karma for themselves. 

What self serving nonsense. If that helps you sleep at night so be it. There's no ultimate justice. What happened to the perpetrator of the black Dalia? Do you think the people who flew planes into buildings killing thousands got any karma? No, they got what they wanted. How about all the kids dying in third world countries? They live a life of poverty and pain. What did they deserve to receive that?

2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

I know this to be true.

And I know it's not, and that you are easily influenced by nonsense. Now what?

Try sparing a thought for all the injustice on this planet that goes unchecked the next time you philosophise karma.

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psyche101
Habitat
psyche101
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

I know a bloke with an excavator.

Like I say I'm in.

We could team up here :lol:

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Habitat

Expensive coffins are shameful. Money that could benefit someone, either going into the ground to rot, or burnt. Maybe they sneakily switch to cardboard behind the scenes in cremations.

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psyche101
20 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Expensive coffins are shameful. Money that could benefit someone, either going into the ground to rot, or burnt. Maybe they sneakily switch to cardboard behind the scenes in cremations.

Don't worry.

Karma will get them ..... :unsure2: :lol:

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XenoFish
6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Why?

Do you question the right of people who make stuff up, rewrite religious ideas and plagiarise anything that shoehorned into a personal view?

We all do that. So it makes no difference. Even you repeat the words of your saints.

Nah. They don't have the right and are taking the argument to us. They have assulted logic reason and common sense. 

Only on here I suspect. I've seen the feeding frenzy, hell I've even partaken in it. Someone post a belief and it's shouted down. 

I just can't see how you see it like that. If people could book meetings with God and see miracles actually happen, then I'd put them on a level ground.

Do you not read book by the saints of science, do you not worship all the technology it has given you, and do you not preach the holy gospel of science and reason? You do and you do it a lot. 

Dead set, I reckon a great deal of that is just laziness. The rest is appeal to certain wants, and that's why even Christianity is splintered. In most cases, it's just easier. It's not hard to be an expert in superstition. It promises a great deal but doesn't deliver. I'm over fifty and have seen a lot of BS and lies. That's the real world.  People living BS is just a sad story to me. I'm over that false crap and I have to say I'm disappointed that so many of the species took that easy way to pretend they actually understand the universe. That's weak and lazy. Weak and lazy people like that are a burden to the species.

Like I said, not everyone needs to know everything. Some people still retain that childlike wonderment of the world and dare I say, have a bit of open ended optimism. The thing about life that I've noticed, it's more the story you tell yourself that what is, because what is might not be what you think. Yes people lie and all that bad crap. I know, but I do know that what you focus on become your reality tunnel. Aren't you just pretending science will save you? You're not a scientist, you are just someone with a hobby. Nor am I a psychologist, I'm just a guy with an interest. 

I think religion is a huge dissapointment. Those pioneers who came up those philosophies were trying to work out the world around them (which seems to strongly coincide with the attention schema theory of consiouness) and they used the only tools available to them. Their minds. Those first guesses were steps into academia. They were wrong, and that's not a bad thing, it's a starting point. 

In a way yes and in a way no. Religion while born of ignorance united people. It was the first pseudo-government. You can hate on a lot of the past but it is the past that got us here today and I can promise you that if humanity survives a few more 1000 years. Someone will be saying the same thing about us. How ignorant we are, etc. 

IMHO, today's adherence by many to those first guesses would make those thoughtful pioneers facepalm. That's letting them down by not carrying the torch, but sitting down with it. 

And? That is their choice. 

But how many cannonballs and sword blades carried the Lord's name for more gain?

How many have some governments name on them? How many die due to raw hatred? How many are murdered for being in the wrong gang/group? History is not ideal. It is an ugly mess and we are the results of billions of choices, both good and bad. As for most religious folks, they are probably the cafeteria variety. 

It's tolerant in society today only because the word of God is abhorrent and ridiculous. So many modern people have reformed that ideology. If you go to Africa you will see Christians beheading Muslims. We still see groups like Westboro adhering to purist versions of the Bible. So really, modern day Christians are somewhat heretics. 

Every ideology evolves with time and that's good. Even science changes. Science is the new god on the block. 

Why keep rehashing a failed idea? Because the BS promises it's representatives make are just too tempting for the average person. Preachers are like politicians for religion and it's lies like that afterlife. 

People need hope to cope. Do you know for 100% certainty there is no form of afterlife? I don't. Hell, I don't trust science to be right about anything anymore. With all the falsified studies that are popping up lately. People make mistakes, science doesn't know everything and it never will. The thing is, none of it matters. People can live their lives like you and be miserable, latching onto their god, and die hating everyone and themselves. And someone can believe in some airy fairy god in the sky and enjoy their life. Yes there are those who take things to far, but I feel that most do not. Because deep down I don't think we know ****. 

 

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XenoFish

I'm about to sound like habitat and say that there are factions on this forum. Resulting in no constructive middle ground. I'm not going to say 'teams' as it would imply organization. But I will say that every section on here is skeptics vs believers. People arguing over who's reality tunnel is the right one. Sorry guys, but I am very tired of it. I find both atheism and theism to be equally absurd. I think pure logic and reason is just as absurd as pure fantasy and wishful thinking, and most important of all we have forgotten our humanity. People have become just a screen name. Everyone has a reason for believing the things they do. I can only hope they balance it. That's all. I have no power to change how another person thinks. I can only offer my point of view and I guess I'm going to be booted off "team skeptic". Because the only path for me now is the old path. The one of agnosticism where "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. So feel free to mock me for this. I like a little imagination in my life. Even if its something I fabricate for the fun of it. 

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XenoFish
55 minutes ago, iridescence said:

Theism has to do with belief and gnosticism with knowledge. That's why some people call themselves agnostic atheists. You can still keep an open mind while choosing to not believe in any deity.

The thing is I pretty unconcerned about the existence/nonexistence of deity. 

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, iridescence said:

It seems that deities are pretty unconcerned about our existence too :rolleyes:

At most we have is the idea of deity. 

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, iridescence said:

The idea that there's a separate thinking entity which is omniscient and omnipresent sounds ridiculous to me. I'd rather stick with natural explanations.

If someone says that god is all there is, then it might as well be nature. I don't need to believe in nature as long as its existence is obvious to me.

Then is nature a conscious entity? 

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joc
8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

If you go to Africa you will see Christians beheading Muslims. We still see groups like Westboro adhering to purist versions of the Bible. So really, modern day Christians are somewhat heretics. 

There are fringes of lunatics in any genre...political, societal,  the arts, etc.   The vast majority of Christians aren't Westboro or looking for Muslims to behead.  Most are just regular people who have been trained from birth to believe in God...and so they do...and they go to church and worship what they believe is real, and most try to live according to a philosophy that most people should live by anyway...consideration of other people.

Many feel better for their effort.  Most consider an illogical thought process to be NOT seeing that there is a God. But you know all of this.  

Personally, I grew very tired of spending my thought process energy on things that made no sense in reality.  It is MY thought process energy.  I don't want anyone telling me what to do with it.  So, I don't tell anyone what they have to do with theirs either.  We have the power  ultimately  to change our own thought process...No matter what one thinks about anything, one will get Kudos from some, and Criticism from others. 

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psyche101
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

We all do that. So it makes no difference. Even you repeat the words of your saints.

No, we don't all do that. 

I have no saints. No one man can make claim to all the knowledge we have gathered. Knowledge is much bigger than the species. And it's as endless as the universe. It's real and many discoveries contribute my n the real world. Diseases eradicated, limbs replaced, and knowledge networked. All without selling your soul or living this life for another philosophical one 

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Only on here I suspect. I've seen the feeding frenzy, hell I've even partaken in it. Someone post a belief and it's shouted down

That entirely depends on the poster. I've had some very interesting discussions with Diechecker lately, I respect Hammers personal approach and I admire the genuine traits of Buddhism. 

Some other posters, not so productive. That's the nature of so much diversity in such a small space. It's to be expected really.

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Do you not read book by the saints of science, do you not worship all the technology it has given you, and do you not preach the holy gospel of science and reason? You do and you do it a lot. 

I challenge unproven notions with more likely answers. If there's a better answer, how else is one going to learn it? Some years ago I was a strong Sea Shepherd supporter. A couple of posters here at the time were marine biologists and they corrected me. I put forth the best argument with the best information I had. I lost. Royally. But I learned alot about the marketing involved and how damaging the people I had been supporting really were. I completely changed my opinion. We are here to discuss. When the best information is strictly available, why not share it? If there's better again, that's where it comes out. You've seen me corrected by Cormac, I'm good with that. I am as fluid as the best information is. I can't say the same for those invested in belief. Fact is, the universe is what science is, we are just trying to understand it a bit at a time. 

You can think it's preaching, but that just seems more like mudslinging. I'm challenging people for better information. I don't see anything wrong with that. I go to great lengths to lay out information as simply as possible to discuss any aspect that anyone might disagree with, but like you are doing right here, religious ad homs are hurled instead of actually discussing the information. Why is only superstition met so openly whilst real world information is sneered at?. I mean really, what's the go there?

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Like I said, not everyone needs to know everything. Some people still retain that childlike wonderment of the world and dare I say, have a bit of open ended optimism. The thing about life that I've noticed, it's more the story you tell yourself that what is, because what is might not be what you think. Yes people lie and all that bad crap. I know, but I do know that what you focus on become your reality tunnel. Aren't you just pretending science will save you? You're not a scientist, you are just someone with a hobby. Nor am I a psychologist, I'm just a guy with an interest. 

No, not everybody needs to know everything. If someone does make a statement in a discussion forum, it's going to be challenged. I expect to be. 

What could science possibly save me from? That is a strange comment to make.

No, I'm not a scientist. I have an interest, I've never indicated otherwise. 

Yes, people lie and cheat. That's reality. It's not a tunnel. It's what all people really hate about each other. If it's not one thing, it's another, sometimes deserved, sometimes not. All I'm doing is accepting that. 

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In a way yes and in a way no. Religion while born of ignorance united people. It was the first pseudo-government. You can hate on a lot of the past but it is the past that got us here today and I can promise you that if humanity survives a few more 1000 years. Someone will be saying the same thing about us. How ignorant we are, etc. 

No, I agree with you there. Religion did play an important part in our development, be it good, bad or otherwise doesn't matter. It no doubt shaped our society and had a very important role in what we are today. I don't consider that aspect of our development ignorant. It's development. If you're referring to my comments in the discussions I've had with Diechecker lately, I'm discussing a hypothetical situation about an omnipotent being. He is very interesting to banter with as he has a unique, informed view. Some of his beliefs (more than religion) do puzzle me, but over the years I've come to respect him as an interesting sensible individual. I'd like to think he enjoys our discussions too. I hold him in high regard.

I think people who look back and can't understand an action, ignorant, good, or just outright bad, I agree aren't seeing the whole picture. What most posters don't seem to understand is I don't hold ignorance as barbaric, only deliberate ignorance.

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And? That is their choice. 

Yep. A choice. That's why people like Hammer and DC who understand the sciences and state clearly, that it's their choice, don't get a hard time, but a warm welcome. I respect that choice. I don't respect those who outright dismiss evidence and say it's wrong, or doesn't exist as a hit and run statement. 

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How many have some governments name on them? How many die due to raw hatred? How many are murdered for being in the wrong gang/group? History is not ideal. It is an ugly mess and we are the results of billions of choices, both good and bad. As for most religious folks, they are probably the cafeteria variety. 

So are billions of Muslims. So are Buddhists. That's the point. Religious people are as good as the individual is. Christianity isnt really that special. It's first world. First world religions are more peaceful. And they tend to largely take religion with  a grain of salt. I don't hear from them, they don't hear from me. They pray on Sunday morning whereas I might have a coffee and breeze through preposterous universe. It's the posters saying they have better information when they don't. And some are right nutters, it's an as case basis. Like everything.

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Every ideology evolves with time and that's good. Even science changes. 

And ideologies become outdated. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out. Not like head hunters kill one tourist a year to keep the tradition alive.

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Science is the new god on the block. 

Explain how "science" is a god please. How does it meet the definition?

You know better than that!

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People need hope to cope. 

If struggling to cope, how does preaching a belief as real to others help?

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Do you know for 100% certainty there is no form of afterlife? 

Yes 

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I don't. Hell, I don't trust science to be right about anything anymore. With all the falsified studies that are popping up lately. People make mistakes, 

That's my point. It's why science is right. There's no trust involved. It's open to all. It's up to the effort one is prepared to expend. Not being prepared is fine, that's a choice, it doesn't mean superstition mountain s also a good answer or even sensible

What is do disrespectful about recognising it for what it is? Superstition gave us the benchmark to challenge that lead to today's cast scientific body of knowledge. What's app bad about moving forward? 

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science doesn't know everything and it never will. 

Why do people say this? Of a people, why would you say this? 

Have I ever made that claim? I've in fact said the very same thing. More than once too.

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The thing is, none of it matters. People can live their lives like you and be miserable, latching onto their god, and die hating everyone and themselves. 

My life is not entirely miserable. My dog makes me smile every day. 

 I don't have time to latch onto anything. In my free time, I discuss my interests. And there's not much of that. Would you deny that pursuit because it upsets some irrational beliefs, who are presented as fact to begin with?

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And someone can believe in some airy fairy god in the sky and enjoy their life. 

I can't unsee the god killer.

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Yes there are those who take things to far, but I feel that most do not. Because deep down I don't think we know ****. 

This that don't validate those that do. Why do you think Westboro can harrass innocent people in the street? Why do you think radicals can walk the streets and prey on the troubled? Why do you think people can carry signs in public threatening all those who don't believe in their religion?

Because most people want a belief validated. The fundamentalists borrow credibility from the moderates. Can't offend a religion now can we. Of God exists for the moderates, the concept is much stronger for the fundamentalists. Validation of the god concept.

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XenoFish

Like a brick wall that's adamant it's right, sheesh. I guess we part ways psyche. 

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psyche101
6 minutes ago, joc said:

There are fringes of lunatics in any genre...political, societal,  the arts, etc.   The vast majority of Christians aren't Westboro or looking for Muslims to behead.  Most are just regular people who have been trained from birth to believe in God...and so they do...and they go to church and worship what they believe is real, and most try to live according to a philosophy that most people should live by anyway...consideration of other people.

Many feel better for their effort.  Most consider an illogical thought process to be NOT seeing that there is a God. But you know all of this.  

Personally, I grew very tired of spending my thought process energy on things that made no sense in reality.  It is MY thought process energy.  I don't want anyone telling me what to do with it.  So, I don't tell anyone what they have to do with theirs either.  We have the power  ultimately  to change our own thought process...No matter what one thinks about anything, one will get Kudos from some, and Criticism from others. 

That's what I was just telling Xeno. The majority lend credibility to the minority. If the majority accepted the idea as superstition, and just continued to act in good faith and openly cherry pick good messages from the Bible as inspiration, it would deflate fundamental beliefs. 

Recognising god as a man made idea

I honestly feel would take away a great deal of power from fundamental groups, and the appeal to accept such a voilent irrational belief to begin with. 

Leading be example would have a great impact if the species had the balls to take that first step.

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psyche101
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Like a brick wall that's adamant it's right, sheesh. I guess we part ways psyche. 

You sure I'm the brick wall here? I actually agreed with a couple of your points.

It's looking like that to me from here too you know. 

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XenoFish
7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

You sure I'm the brick wall here? I actually agreed with a couple of your points.

It's looking like that to me from here too you know. 

Take it easy psyche and have a good life. 

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psyche101
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Take it easy psyche and have a good life. 

Whatever.

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joc
46 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's what I was just telling Xeno. The majority lend credibility to the minority. If the majority accepted the idea as superstition, and just continued to act in good faith and openly cherry pick good messages from the Bible as inspiration, it would deflate fundamental beliefs. 

Recognising god as a man made idea

I honestly feel would take away a great deal of power from fundamental groups, and the appeal to accept such a voilent irrational belief to begin with. 

Leading be example would have a great impact if the species had the balls to take that first step.

Well, you know, like Jesus said...(heh, heh)...ye have the 'fundies' with you always...  :P

We can kind of look at this forum as a microcosm of the world at large.   I am right and you are wrong...no, you are wrong and I am right.  Islamic vs Christianity,  Wooville vs Realville,  The Left vs The Right.   I tend to think it is just the state of humanity. The history of man's evolution has brought us to this point where we find out...in the end...we haven't evolved at all.  Belief in something is as relevant to our species as chasing prey is to the lion.  It's kind of what we do.  Human emotion not withstanding.  Accepting  humanistic irrationality for what it is, I have come to a point of indifference toward it all.  I don't care.  I don't care if you're christian or atheist...straight or homosexual...black or white...stupid or incredibly brilliant...rich or poor as dirt....it's all a big wash in the much larger picture of  My Own Personal Thought Process.     Because...I am right...and everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong!  But that's okay...I'm probably wrong about most everything as well because...rumor has it...I also am human.

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Helen of Annoy
18 hours ago, joc said:

Of course it is contradictory to science.  How can you measure anything spiritual?  How can you 'test' anything spiritual? Spirituality is all a mental exercise.  There is nothing real about it...scientifically speaking.

Precisely because you can't measure spirituality, it's not contradictory to science. 

Spiritual and scientific are very clearly two very different areas of human interest, dealing with two very different forms of human existence: complete (spiritual) and material only (scientific). 

Just like I won't search my soul for the exact pressure in a gas installation, but I will take a manometer, so I won't take a manometer to search for the soul in a body. 

I'm under impression the extremist 'scientific' crowd is doing exactly that: they're running around with various measuring tools, proudly declaring they've found no god/soul/meaning/etc. Of course you didn't.

If you could stop being so proud of applying ridiculously wrong criteria, it would be just wonderful. 

 

 

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lightly
6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I'm about to sound like habitat and say that there are factions on this forum. Resulting in no constructive middle ground. I'm not going to say 'teams' as it would imply organization. But I will say that every section on here is skeptics vs believers. People arguing over who's reality tunnel is the right one. Sorry guys, but I am very tired of it. I find both atheism and theism to be equally absurd. I think pure logic and reason is just as absurd as pure fantasy and wishful thinking, and most important of all we have forgotten our humanity. People have become just a screen name. Everyone has a reason for believing the things they do. I can only hope they balance it. That's all. I have no power to change how another person thinks. I can only offer my point of view and I guess I'm going to be booted off "team skeptic". Because the only path for me now is the old path. The one of agnosticism where "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. So feel free to mock me for this. I like a little imagination in my life. Even if its something I fabricate for the fun of it. 

  I like the way you seem to be Softening up ...and  seem to be getting wiser somehow too. :)

i forget where I read it ....but I always liked the saying...." Wisest is he  who knows he does not know"

I can tell you have been through some very hard times... I'm happy for you that you seem to be Healing a bit.  

 

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XenoFish
20 minutes ago, lightly said:

  I like the way you seem to be Softening up ...and  seem to be getting wiser somehow too. :)

i forget where I read it ....but I always liked the saying...." Wisest is he  who knows he does not know"

I can tell you have been through some very hard times... I'm happy for you that you seem to be Healing a bit.  

 

I've effectively made myself an "enemy" to the pure reason and logic crowd. I'm okay with that. Beliefs are the filter through which we view reality. Might as well make it a good one. 

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Helen of Annoy

 

53 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I've effectively made myself an "enemy" to the pure reason and logic crowd. I'm okay with that. Beliefs are the filter through which we view reality. Might as well make it a good one. 

No, you didn't. 

Extreme 'sceptics' are not the reason or logic crowd. They're following a dogma - and attempt abusing it, just like religious extremists do. 

While reason and logic lead everyone sane. Sane people are not extremists. Especially not in the matters that are pretty much beyond proof. Some will lean more to the materialist, some more to the spiritual side, but no one will burst a vein over that. 

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