4.5 million on NHS Op waiting lists

[Eldorado]

"Six million people will be left waiting for crucial operations such as hip replacements and cataract surgery by 2024 because NHS hospitals cannot cope with rising demand, it was claimed last night.

"The number of people on waiting lists for planned treatment in England will jump by 30 per cent from the current 4.6 million, according to a new forecast from a collection of private health firms."

At the UK Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7902903/NHS-crisis-leave-six-million-people-operation-waiting-lists-private-health-firms-warn.html

 

"This is a motion about the 4.5 million people on waiting lists. This is a motion about the pregnant woman who waited so long for her glaucoma operation at a hospital in Southampton that she nearly lost her sight and has never seen the face of her child.

"This is a motion about the 34,000 people who wait more than two months for cancer treatment. This is a motion about those constituents, such as mine in Leicester, who had their bladder cancer operations cancelled twice. This is a motion about the 79,000 cancelled operations last year, and the 18,000 children’s cancelled operations.

"This is a motion about the 110,000 children denied mental health care, even though they are in the most desperate of circumstances. This is a motion about the 98,000 patients who waited on trolleys last month—a 65% increase on the previous year—many of them elderly, many of them in their 80s and 90s, languishing for hours and hours on trolleys in hospital corridors."

From 16th january at Hansard (Parliament) : https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-01-16/debates/8FF34846-E79D-40FD-9B8C-B0DF1CDC96F6/HealthAndSocialCare

[itsnotoutthere]

[ethereal_scout]

The NHS is a black hole for tax and the only headline that'll outlive me. As a black hole for tax IMO it needs to remain that way. As to the senior management most need shot by a Stalin.

[Eldorado]

6 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

RAF hero, 92, left on trolley for 12 hours.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-hero-92-left-trolley-21250564

Ungrateful trash.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Eldorado

[sags]

Well you can't argue against the fact that the NHS in dire straights. Pitiful in fact ..... but when there's an emergency they often rise to the challenge. I got immediate treatment when I was carted off in an ambulance after a brain aneurysm. Eight days later I was back home after endovascular coiling. God knows what that would have cost me if I'd had to pay. 

 

 

[itsnotoutthere]

13 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

RAF hero, 92, left on trolley for 12 hours.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-hero-92-left-trolley-21250564

Ungrateful trash.

I think you misunderstand my point.

Perhaps its time for a new model.

Edited January 19, 2020 by itsnotoutthere

[Eldorado]

4 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

I think you misunderstand my point.

Apologies for not making clear that the "ungrateful trash" barb was aimed at our Nation, not yourself.

 

"In 2017, the Royal Society of Medicine said that government austerity decisions in health and social care were likely to have resulted in 30,000 deaths in England and Wales in 2015 "

At wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_government_austerity_programme

If you don't look after your own, you're not much of a family.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Eldorado

[itsnotoutthere]

Dare I say, perhaps those that can afford health insurance........etc...

Perhaps the NHS is just too big and is trying to cover too many bases. As I say perhaps a new model is required afterall, the idea that you just keep doing things the same way because you've always done it that way, is not necessarily a good idea.

Edited January 19, 2020 by itsnotoutthere

[spartan max2]

The good old universal healthcare I always hear about.

[Eldorado]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

The good old universal healthcare I always hear about.

The criminally underfunded by Conservatives universal healthcare.

BTW... don't get so smug.

"Medical error—the third leading cause of death in the US"  https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139

US veteran dies covered in ant bites -- https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/13/georgia-senator-horrified-after-veteran-dies-covered-ant-bites/2309812001/

[+and-then]

5 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The good old universal healthcare I always hear about.

It's a noble idea but the current systems we have in place can never meet that standard.  It will be a real human tragedy when Americans give in to the magical thinking that we can have good, timely care for everyone without paying a tremendous amount more than we are today.  Our system will be as bad or worse than NHS in a very short time.  The staff will be under-educated and prone to thinking like bureaucrats or hourly wage earners with no real professionalism.  Healthcare is NOT a career for minimum wage types or bureaucrats.  

[spartan max2]

6 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

The criminally underfunded by Conservatives universal healthcare.

BTW... don't get so smug.

"Medical error—the third leading cause of death in the US"  https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139

US veteran dies covered in ant bites -- https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/13/georgia-senator-horrified-after-veteran-dies-covered-ant-bites/2309812001/

Medicare covered nursing home are indeed a nightmare here. 

I'm just wondering if there is a balance somewhere.

With private insurance the issue is some people aren't covered and some people have bad bare bones insurance.

With universal healthcare it always looks like the wait times get much longer and certain gatekeeping things.

Both are bad things when it comes to healthcare, but I don't really know a good solution. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by spartan max2

[Essan]

I am just curious as to why so many people need non urgent operations.    Or do they really need them?

[ethereal_scout]

Quote

Perhaps the NHS is just too big and is trying to cover too many bases.

I'd like to see it in law restricted to 'life-saving' treatment only rather than be concerned about 'trans teenagers' metal or yet to be altered physical health.

That's the problem with budgetary systems - if they're running on £300M one year and experience a short fall - they'll top it up to £400M and only use £20M of it, they'll find new things to blow the remaining £80M on. They keep finding new ways of spending their money at the expense of the front line 'life saving'.

[hetrodoxly]

The NHS is wonderful, From cradle to grave, you're born into this world with medical care as good as anywhere in the world, your mothers looked after no mater what her problems were, in your old age you can have free hearing aids, free dental care, free prescription glasses and eye tests, all your medication is free including viagra, you often have to wait in A&E but you will be seen to and no mater your problem you'll receive the best care possible, we have people sitting in the hospital waiting rooms because they have a sore throat, last time i was there a guy with a cut finger sat next to me moaning about the wait, a kid sat with his both parents across from me with a grazed knee, these are the type of people that moan the most. 

[L.A.T.1961]

I guess one of the measures of a health service, if not the ultimate measure, is death rates. A health service that cannot treat patients promptly enough or well enough will end up killing people. 

Given all the negative press about the poor old NHS you might think they are probably killing folks off at an alarming rate  compared to our enlightened European friends and others from around the world ? 

So what are the numbers - 

In the UK death rates are 9.4 per 1000 people while In Germany, a country know as a model of efficiency, the death rate is higher than the UK. Latest figures show the Germans have a death rate of 11.4 per 1000 people.

The Italians, despite their Mediterranean diet, don't do too well either at 10.7 deaths per 1000 and Austria, with lots of fresh mountain air, still lag behind the UK at 9.9 deaths per 1000 people.

There is always room for improvement but if the NHS is so bad where are the bodies ... 

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/death-rate  

 

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, ethereal_scout said:

The NHS is a black hole for tax and the only headline that'll outlive me. As a black hole for tax IMO it needs to remain that way. As to the senior management most need shot by a Stalin.

Hopefully as austerity gets lifted more funding will become available.

I would like to see the UK Government make it law that all citizens get Sunday off work and have to engage in a physical activity. It will save £10 billions in NHS funding.

[toast]

52 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Both are bad things when it comes to healthcare, but I don't really know a good solution. 

The German system. In service since 1883 and works well.

[Eldorado]

26 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

I guess one of the measures of a health service, if not the ultimate measure, is death rates. A health service that cannot treat patients promptly enough or well enough will end up killing people. 

Given all the negative press about the poor old NHS you might think they are probably killing folks off at an alarming rate  compared to our enlightened European friends and others from around the world ? 

So what are the numbers - 

In the UK death rates are 9.4 per 1000 people while In Germany, a country know as a model of efficiency, the death rate is higher than the UK. Latest figures show the Germans have a death rate of 11.4 per 1000 people.

The Italians, despite their Mediterranean diet, don't do too well either at 10.7 deaths per 1000 and Austria, with lots of fresh mountain air, still lag behind the UK at 9.9 deaths per 1000 people.

There is always room for improvement but if the NHS is so bad where are the bodies ... 

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/death-rate  

 

"Patients are dying in hospital corridors, the heads of half of England’s A&E departments warned the prime minister, as they resorted to swapping tips on WhatsApp to cope with the crisis.

"The Red Cross is handing out blankets to patients waiting in corridors and day clinics used as makeshift wards, according to consultants running emergency care at 68 hospitals."

At the Times 2018: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-dying-in-corridors-and-on-makeshift-wards-a-e-chiefs-warn-gp08ggr6l

"NHS cancels thousands of child operations"

"Thousands of hospital operations for children are being cancelled every year owing to a lack of beds, staff and equipment in the NHS."

At the British Medical Association 2017: https://www.bma.org.uk/news/2017/june/nhs-cancels-thousands-of-child-operations

 

"The total net wealth of private households in Great Britain was £14.6 trillion in April 2016 to March 2018, an increase of 13% in real terms from April 2014 to March 2016, mainly because of increases in private pension and net property wealth."

At The ONS: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/totalwealthingreatbritain/april2016tomarch2018

"Queen Elizabeth II to get £6m pay rise from public funds"

At the Independent 2017: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/queen-elizabeth-pay-rise-royal-public-funds-buckingham-palace-sovereign-grant-royal-family-crown-a7809716.html

"MPs' basic pay to increase to £79,468"

At the BBC 2019: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47405259

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Eldorado

[toast]

18 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

In the UK death rates are 9.4 per 1000 people while In Germany, a country know as a model of efficiency, the death rate is higher than the UK. Latest figures show the Germans have a death rate of 11.4 per 1000 people.

The Italians, despite their Mediterranean diet, don't do too well either at 10.7 deaths per 1000 and Austria, with lots of fresh mountain air, still lag behind the UK at 9.9 deaths per 1000 people.

I dont understand the x/1000 value as to be an indicter for the quality of the health system. Death rates are subject to a lot more other points than health care quality.

[hetrodoxly]

8 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

"Patients are dying in hospital corridors

How many?

Edited January 19, 2020 by hetrodoxly

[Eldorado]

3 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

How many?

Ask them yourself.

https://www.bma.org.uk/contact-bma

Edited January 19, 2020 by Eldorado

[hetrodoxly]

1 minute ago, Eldorado said:

Ask them yourself.

https://www.bma.org.uk/contact-bma

You made the statement.

[Eldorado]

1 minute ago, hetrodoxly said:

You made the statement.

I was quoting the BMA.

 Sorry, it was actually the Times.  And a few others reported it.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/exclusive-aande-doctors-tell-prime-minister-patients-are-dying-in-corridors/7021436.article

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42572116

https://pharmaphorum.com/news/patients-dying-corridors-winter-pressures-overwhelm-nhs/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-crisis-latest-patients-dying-prematurely-corridors-a-and-e-bosses-theresa-may-warning-winter-a8153551.html

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-dying-hospital-corridors-letter-theresa-may-515082

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-01-11/nhs-a-e-letter/

 

Here's the contact details for the Times: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/static/contact-us/

Edited January 19, 2020 by Eldorado

[spartan max2]

22 minutes ago, toast said:

The German system. In service since 1883 and works well.

Off the top of your head do you know the structural differences between the two? The U.K and Germany systems.