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ocpaul20

Magic wands and biblical staff

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Piney
2 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

Then again, we can't entirely rule out the possibility some of draconic chronicler's buddies might've been a little hard up for cash back then and made some donations to the templars.

I think he's deceased. Shame, as a military historian the man was a genius. 

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Mark Sanders

Rods or sceptres are a symbol of power over society. Considering Moses and the backgroung that is Egypt we perhaps can consider the Egyptian was:

Quote

The was (Egyptian wꜣs "power, dominion"[1]) sceptre is a symbol that appeared often in relics, art, and hieroglyphics associated with the ancient Egyptian religion. It appears as a stylized animal head at the top of a long, straight staff with a forked end.

Was sceptres were used as symbols of power or dominion, and were associated with ancient Egyptian deities such as Set or Anubis[2] as well as with the pharaoh. Was sceptres also represent the Set animal. In later use, it was a symbol of control over the force of chaos that Set represented. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Was-sceptre

The serpent has in many cultures been associated with wisdom as most of you are probably aware. When Mosses and Aaron stood before Pharaoh the following scene played out.

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Aaron’s Staff Becomes a Snake

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ then say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,’ and it will become a snake.”

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said. - Exodus 7:8-13

It was a battle of dominance(the staff) that took place on matter of principles(the serpent). So what caracterizes this serpent of Moses/Aaron? It was like that bronze snake setup in Numbers 21, it is a typology of Christ! Aaron/Moses were basically in a theological conflict about regality. Much like the discussion between spiritual authority versus temporal power. In this sense Moses/Aaron were rebels, revolting against oppression, rooted in the Word, or logos. (Truth, as in knowledge and understanding will set you free is the message i get from it).

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The Bronze Snake

They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”

Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. - Numbers 21:4-9

Moses-and-the-Brazen-Serpent-1653-54-Sebimage171.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Mark Sanders
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Sir Wearer of Hats

Lots of Rods striking things in Exodus, striking rocks to bring forth water etc. 

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Alchopwn

Jesus was often depicted with a magic wand by the early church:

city_jesus_miracle.jpg.15b74bedb6735ac2dc9be6057363cb26.jpg617154735_JesusLazaruswand.jpg.2c2f4f888ef3fbb4085b7fc68be757ce.jpg1330038104_JEsusMW1.jpg.91e57ecb7911b83f6bf48d5005958fe7.jpg

Then the parents' committee complained Jesus was being too occult and banned it...

Edited by Alchopwn
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jaylemurph
4 hours ago, iridescence said:

That's what I expected when I first joined this forum. I'm a skeptic person myself but I don't reject the possibility that some things could be truly unexplainable. There could be people with genuinely weird experiences and sometimes it feels lonely if there's no one to whom you can share them. Sure, skepticism is good, but not to the extreme. A little open mindedness won't hurt.

Funny how, around here, “open-mindedness” typically is code for “believes like me.”

—Jaylemurph 

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Desertrat56
Just now, jaylemurph said:

Funny how, around here, “open-mindedness” typically is code for “believes like me.”

—Jaylemurph 

No, then you are not paying attention.

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jaylemurph
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, then you are not paying attention.

Aye, think so still, till experience change thy mind. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Desertrat56
9 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Aye, think so still, till experience change thy mind. 

—Jaylemurph 

There are several of us on this forum who are skeptical, and open minded because of many unexplainable experiences we have and we do not claim to be "believers" of anything specific.  You aren't paying attention.

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XenoFish
37 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Funny how, around here, “open-mindedness” typically is code for “believes like me.”

—Jaylemurph 

Depends on how "open minded" is used. Most of the time it's used in a way than means "you should believe what I believe". 

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Skirnum
28 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Depends on how "open minded" is used. Most of the time it's used in a way than means "you should believe what I believe". 

Probably true. But if nature is as it is, then it is probably natural nature one should be open for. I also think about what is natural to man / unique to man if you give me a bit slack. Open to new experiences and not to others' conceptions. For these things are as they are, and do not change in order to adapt to our ideas and beliefs. As I see it so far.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

There are several of us on this forum who are skeptical, and open minded because of many unexplainable experiences we have and we do not claim to be "believers" of anything specific.  You aren't paying attention.

“You should be more open minded” is usually the last resort of someone who has had their elaborate fantasy deconstructed by the denizens of this hive of scum and villainy. It has a lot less to do with actuslly being open minded though, and more “accepting the narrative I’ve created that makes me special”. 

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Wes83

I am always brought back to the Most truly profound revelation I ever had, “you can look at it any way you want”.

Couple that with the words of the fictitious one according to some-“according to your faith, let it be done unto you”.

you either live in the world where your experiences have jaded your perception and see nothing worthwhile, or you find the worthwhile to keep you as “a little child” and forever remain a student in the unfolding of the universe. I’m surprised the Buddha ever pointed to the moon, all it did was cause confusion for the masses anyway. For him that has eyes to see.

I really believe all the esoteric teachings you could ever encounter exist in each of us, naturally and dormant. It’s not worth arguing over, or trying to prove. Who am I to alter another powerful beings reality with my own truths when they are just as devoted to their truths? 
 

It would be great to talk with others who have experienced things like I have, I once yearned for it. But I could care less now, I see more clearly how we each make up our own realities. How we connect.... because even when we disagree we connect. 
 

I can no longer disagree, it’s whatever. As far as wands go, they are nothing but a focusing tool for the real power. How much power is there I cannot say at this time. Certainly not more than the experimenter believes can be there, truly believes.

ive long been concerned with the line between insanity and logically deduced faith. I do believe it to be very fine. Experiment at your own caution, or not-its all a play anyway-too bad so few of us are playing.

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Alchopwn
On 1/30/2020 at 2:58 AM, jaylemurph said:

Funny how, around here, “open-mindedness” typically is code for “believes like me.”

—Jaylemurph 

Y'know, you raise a fine point. 

In truth an open minded person is one who is prepared to listen to a case on its merits, and consider the evidence presented as fairly as they can.  The open minded person is never obliged to accept or agree with any position offered, unless the evidence presented allows them to replicate a phenomenon.  An open mind is not the same as a B.S. sponge, passively absorbing, it is someone who is prepared to consider all B.S. on its critical merits.  In fact I think there are a lot of open minds on this forum, which is one reason I keep coming back.

I would also add that unless one is being a false prophet (which IS hilarious), there is no harm in being wrong, provided one learns from it.

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Wepwawet

In ancient Egypt, while they had a number of staffs, rods, scepters etc which indicated power, these objects were not we would call a magic wand, and I would think an Egyptian from those times would be puzzled that anybody would think that, for instance, a was sceptre channeled magic like a wand. Magic could be imparted into objects, a protective amulet for instance, or in their equivalent of a first aid dressing, for to them medicine and magic were all the same. The important factor for them was that the magic came into being from the spoken word, a spell, and no wand was required for the magic to work. If anything could be seen a prop for magic, then it would be the lectors papyrus roll, and maybe his writing implements, for with them he creates a reservoir of magic that he can then bring into being by speaking the words. The lector, the "magician" is never shown with any type of "wand", only his papyrus roll, his "book of spells".

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XenoFish
18 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

In ancient Egypt, while they had a number of staffs, rods, scepters etc which indicated power, these objects were not we would call a magic wand, and I would think an Egyptian from those times would be puzzled that anybody would think that, for instance, a was sceptre channeled magic like a wand. Magic could be imparted into objects, a protective amulet for instance, or in their equivalent of a first aid dressing, for to them medicine and magic were all the same. The important factor for them was that the magic came into being from the spoken word, a spell, and no wand was required for the magic to work. If anything could be seen a prop for magic, then it would be the lectors papyrus roll, and maybe his writing implements, for with them he creates a reservoir of magic that he can then bring into being by speaking the words. The lector, the "magician" is never shown with any type of "wand", only his papyrus roll, his "book of spells".

Magic is the end results of the power of suggestion and belief. A magical placebo effect. All tools used in any magical act are just symbolic. They have meaning only because people give them meaning. There power is due to belief, though this power is only over a persons mind.

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Wepwawet
24 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Magic is the end results of the power of suggestion and belief. A magical placebo effect. All tools used in any magical act are just symbolic. They have meaning only because people give them meaning. There power is due to belief, though this power is only over a persons mind.

I certainly understand the placebo effect of magic, and religions, though with the ancient Egyptians it really is something, that while part placebo, particularly in medicine and charms, is beyond mere placebo. I'm sure you know that the word they used for magic was heka, and this was also the name of a god. This heka though could be seen in modern terms as the Star Wars "force", and in fact more fundamental to the universe. The universe came into being by Ptah thinking himself into existance, a magical act, and then creating the universe by his thought and word, another magical act. When he did this he also created heka, though arguably Heka created heka, yet another anomaly in their creation myths. So no matter how heka came into being, it was not as some bag of bones and slight of hand magic tricks used to fool the yokels, but as part of the fabric of the universe, and to the Egyptians a force to be tapped into and used. They believed absolutely in heka and that it was omnipresent, and that asking them if they believed in heka would be like asking us if we believed in air. Certainly a belief is there in the context of your post, but it is also beyond belief, as beliefs can change, it is a matter of them knowing with absolute certainty that something was so, always was and always would be.

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XenoFish
10 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

I certainly understand the placebo effect of magic, and religions, though with the ancient Egyptians it really is something, that while part placebo, particularly in medicine and charms, is beyond mere placebo. I'm sure you know that the word they used for magic was heka, and this was also the name of a god. This heka though could be seen in modern terms as the Star Wars "force", and in fact more fundamental to the universe. The universe came into being by Ptah thinking himself into existance, a magical act, and then creating the universe by his thought and word, another magical act. When he did this he also created heka, though arguably Heka created heka, yet another anomaly in their creation myths. So no matter how heka came into being, it was not as some bag of bones and slight of hand magic tricks used to fool the yokels, but as part of the fabric of the universe, and to the Egyptians a force to be tapped into and used. They believed absolutely in heka and that it was omnipresent, and that asking them if they believed in heka would be like asking us if we believed in air. Certainly a belief is there in the context of your post, but it is also beyond belief, as beliefs can change, it is a matter of them knowing with absolute certainty that something was so, always was and always would be.

Well I'm calling nonsense on this. But you can believe whatever you wish.

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Wepwawet
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Well I'm calling nonsense on this. But you can believe whatever you wish.

If you call nonsense then you need to give a rational explanation, not just dismiss my post out of hand. You do have at least some basic knowledge of ancient Egyptian religion I hope.

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jaylemurph
7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Well I'm calling nonsense on this. But you can believe whatever you wish.

Of course it's nonsense. How anyone can write that much about Ancient Egyptian religion and not mention... Them... is beyond me.

--Jaylemurph 

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XenoFish
11 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

If you call nonsense then you need to give a rational explanation, not just dismiss my post out of hand. You do have at least some basic knowledge of ancient Egyptian religion I hope.

I can call nonsense on anything I so desire. It's just one of many creation myths. 

7 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Of course it's nonsense. How anyone can write that much about Ancient Egyptian religion and not mention... Them... is beyond me.

--Jaylemurph 

The great basset master of days long past.

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Wepwawet
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I can call nonsense on anything I so desire. It's just one of many creation myths.

Of course you can call nonsense on anything you like, but if you won't, or cannot rationalize calling a perfectly decent post about ancient Egyptian beliefs as "nonsense", then I'll feel free to say it is because you lack the knowledge to make a rational reply.

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XenoFish
Just now, Wepwawet said:

Of course you can call nonsense on anything you like, but if you won't, or cannot rationalize calling a perfectly decent post about ancient Egyptian beliefs as "nonsense", then I'll feel free to say it is because you lack the knowledge to make a rational reply.

Doesn't matter to me what you think. Call me what you wish. Think of me how you choose. I really don't care. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I can call nonsense on anything I so desire. It's just one of many creation myths. 

The great basset master of days long past.

FOR IT IS. NOW THE REIGN OF THE FELIS REGIS.

2DB3131E-C1EC-4254-B827-6CB446A404D0.thumb.jpeg.3c8c4a83ca08cd65e599c37c51c9ccf0.jpeg

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Alchopwn
8 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

I certainly understand the placebo effect of magic, and religions, though with the ancient Egyptians it really is something, that while part placebo, particularly in medicine and charms, is beyond mere placebo. I'm sure you know that the word they used for magic was heka, and this was also the name of a god. This heka though could be seen in modern terms as the Star Wars "force", and in fact more fundamental to the universe. The universe came into being by Ptah thinking himself into existance, a magical act, and then creating the universe by his thought and word, another magical act. When he did this he also created heka, though arguably Heka created heka, yet another anomaly in their creation myths. So no matter how heka came into being, it was not as some bag of bones and slight of hand magic tricks used to fool the yokels, but as part of the fabric of the universe, and to the Egyptians a force to be tapped into and used. They believed absolutely in heka and that it was omnipresent, and that asking them if they believed in heka would be like asking us if we believed in air. Certainly a belief is there in the context of your post, but it is also beyond belief, as beliefs can change, it is a matter of them knowing with absolute certainty that something was so, always was and always would be.

I can vouch for this as a valid anthropological approach to the beliefs of Ancient Egypt, as far as anybody knows.  I first became interested in Heka when I visited the Louvre and was perusing the Book of the Dead and the nearby Heka amulet exhibition.  Heka, much like Chi, Ki, Mana, Prana can be a magical energy.  It is also likely to be the origin of the name of the Goddess Hekate.  It is also true that when one is part of a culture, one doesn't question some of its assumptions.  You have a word for something, and you know what the word defines, even if you might have trouble explaining it or demonstrating what it represents.  The fact that Ancient Egyptians believed in Heka doesn't mean that you have to believe it, but it is good to know what it means all the same, especially on a forum like this.  For those interested in the god Heka here is the link.

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Alchopwn
3 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

FELIS REGIS (wearing the ceremonial Crock Mitre of the god Dagon)

2DB3131E-C1EC-4254-B827-6CB446A404D0.thumb.jpeg.3c8c4a83ca08cd65e599c37c51c9ccf0.jpeg

 

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