Time

[lightly]

 I've been thinking about time lately.....and have stumbled upon the idea that , since space and time are ONE.....time is expanding ,right along with space.    Think about it.   The idea seems to fit what we experience as  time.  ?     Time does not "pass" .  .it EXPANDS !   (that's how there is always more of it)  

Pass?  Pass what? From what? To where?  ....I use to reject the idea of time altogether and viewed it as simply a measurement of MOTION.... But now, I think old Albert was right about time being real and an aspect of space.  

    Now ,we could get into all the questions about the universe being finite or infinite and how that would affect time and the expansion of space/time.....   (for example: a finite universe would dissipate until it runs out of itself....whereas, an infinite universe would limitlessly create itself ,possibly pushing the Acceleration we hear about. .? ! )

.   But let's keep it simple and talk about the Expansion of space/time  ...hehe!

i 'm starting to think that it is Expansion which allows all Motion !    If expansion stopped!.....I believe ALL Motion would stop!  The planets would stop in thier orbits...the waves on the sea would freeze as in a STILL photograph !!  .    .    ???   I really think so. !

     one more thought...on the nature of expansion.    The universe does not expand Outwardly .. because there is NOTHING to expand out into  so, it must be expanding Inwardly ...within itself !   At every point.   The universe has no center.  ? it IS it's center, at any point within.     ???    The same space/time that fills all of space....fills the space within our very atoms !   Which ,like all matter, are bound configurations of ENERGY.

ok,..that's enough.    Just read the bolded parts again with an open mind..     

[zep73]

38 minutes ago, lightly said:

i 'm starting to think that it is Expansion which allows all Motion !    If expansion stopped!.....I believe ALL Motion would stop!  The planets would stop in thier orbits...the waves on the sea would freeze as in a STILL photograph !!  .    .    ???   I really think so. !

We didn't know that the universe was expanding, when old Albert released his theory of General Relativity in 1905. GR explains the universe and all its motions + much more.
It wasn't till 20 years later, in 1925, that Hubble proved the universe is expanding.

Edited January 24, 2020 by sci-nerd

[+Desertrat56]

22 minutes ago, lightly said:

've been thinking about time lately.....and have stumbled upon the idea that , since space and time are ONE.....time is expanding ,

I need to know what you mean by "expanding".  As I get older I have less time, not  more.  And it is a perception linked to our perception of space, the "space/time continuum" is not real, just a concept that keeps us all in synch while we are experiencing being human on planet earth.  If time were real we would have non-mechanical/digital ways of keeping in synch without devices, but we don't.  We have clocks to tell us when a certain amount of arbitrarily defined time has passed so that we can agree to meet with our friends at a specific time or get to work "on time".  Just a concept, not real.  And I got a whole different take on the theory of relativity than you apparently did.

[XenoFish]

11 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

As I get older I have less time, not  more.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2019.00716/full

Since perception of a passage of time is tightly related to the detection of change, and change can be detected only due to memory, it suggests the underlying neurophysiological mechanisms of time perception to be in some way related to those of memory. However, so far, it has remained unclear what type of memory or which neural underpinnings are critically involved.

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/the-fluidity-of-time

In the midst of the neuroscientific focus on time perception, scientists continue to recognize the integral role that happiness, sadness, fear, and other emotions play in the way we feel the passing of seconds and minutes. 

 

[lightly]

2 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

We didn't know that the universe was expanding, when old Albert released his theory of General Relativity in 1905. GR explains the universe and all its motions + much more.
It wasn't till 20 years later, in 1925, that Hubble proved the universe is expanding.

That's ok....all I said about Albert was ..that I think he was right about time being an aspect of space....

    ....but,. GR does not explain expansion?  ...so, not quite all it's motions ?      I'm just pondering the possibility of expansion having an effect... and ,actually, being the cause of time.   ???     Has anyone else yet adequately explained what causes time?

Edited January 24, 2020 by lightly

[zep73]

2 minutes ago, lightly said:

....but,. GR does not explain expansion?  ...so, not quite all it's motions ?

The expansion isn't really what you could call a motion. It is the universe getting less dense. There is no 'outside the universe'.

[lightly]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

I need to know what you mean by "expanding".  As I get older I have less time, not  more.  And it is a perception linked to our perception of space, the "space/time continuum" is not real, just a concept that keeps us all in synch while we are experiencing being human on planet earth.  If time were real we would have non-mechanical/digital ways of keeping in synch without devices, but we don't.  We have clocks to tell us when a certain amount of arbitrarily defined time has passed so that we can agree to meet with our friends at a specific time or get to work "on time".  Just a concept, not real.  And I got a whole different take on the theory of relativity than you apparently did.

Expanding?    You know, the predominant theory that the 'universe' is expanding?   I dunno if I believe Anything about anything to be honest.   

   Space/Time continuum not real?    I 've always had my doubts about it too.  I'm just trying to make sence of time ...as an aspect of Expansion.   I think the idea is fascinating myself !

[+Desertrat56]

Just now, lightly said:

Expanding?    You know, the predominant theory that the 'universe' is expanding?   I dunno if I believe Anything about anything to be honest.   

   Space/Time continuum not real?    I 've always had my doubts about it too.  I'm just trying to make sence of time ...as an aspect of Expansion.   I think the idea is fascinating myself !

Ok.  I don't think time has anything to do with expansion, and the universe expanding is a theory.  Maybe it has been proven, but I'm not sure about that.  Perception is the key and when multiple people perceive time or anything else differently then how can we make any claims about the reality of those perceptions?  If you sat and tried to determine how long 10 minutes is you would get different results every time you tried.  You could get close, depending on what you are thinking about and what is going on around you, but you would never be precise and sometimes 10 measured minutes (clock) would feel like 5 and sometimes it would feel like 20.  If you are on hold on a phone call you could be on hold for 40 seconds and think it is two minutes.  The problem is that our minds are not completely in the material world except for a few seconds at a time.  (practicing presence is a load of ****, you can't practice presence and be immune to what is going on around you, what you want for dinner, what someone said yesterday etc.) We are always thinking in terms of the past or future which is outside of time and space.

[lightly]

13 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

The expansion isn't really what you could call a motion. It is the universe getting less dense. There is no 'outside the universe'.

    I said the same thing in my post.

    And I didn"t say the expansion was a motion....I said the expansion ALLOWS for All motion within the universe.   And that if expansion stopped !  ..All motion would stop.     And time as well.

it's just an idea....and a damn good one too !  

Edited January 24, 2020 by lightly

[zep73]

4 minutes ago, lightly said:

it's just an idea....and a damn good one too !  

You should submit it for scientific review. There is a place called scienceforums.net that has a 'speculation' section, where you are allowed to submit ideas.

[lightly]

Just for the heck of it I Googled the idea..(does the expansion of space cause time?)  ..there is actually quite a lot of support for it ...here and there.

[Piney]

3 hours ago, lightly said:

Just for the heck of it I Googled the idea..(does the expansion of space cause time?)  ..there is actually quite a lot of support for it ...here and there.

Why don't you drag Uncle @Harte into it.

He needs to be occupied. We're getting tired of his bad limericks. 

[Harte]

Regardless of thoughts about rhyme

Since I'm mentioned, I guess in I'll chime.

"Creation's" a nay

But there ARE those that say

That it creates the arrow of time.

Harte

[Grim Reaper 6]

7 hours ago, lightly said:

 I've been thinking about time lately.....and have stumbled upon the idea that , since space and time are ONE.....time is expanding ,right along with space.    Think about it.   The idea seems to fit what we experience as  time.  ?     Time does not "pass" .  .it EXPANDS !   (that's how there is always more of it)  

Pass?  Pass what? From what? To where?  ....I use to reject the idea of time altogether and viewed it as simply a measurement of MOTION.... But now, I think old Albert was right about time being real and an aspect of space.  

    Now ,we could get into all the questions about the universe being finite or infinite and how that would affect time and the expansion of space/time.....   (for example: a finite universe would dissipate until it runs out of itself....whereas, an infinite universe would limitlessly create itself ,possibly pushing the Acceleration we hear about. .? ! )

.   But let's keep it simple and talk about the Expansion of space/time  ...hehe!

i 'm starting to think that it is Expansion which allows all Motion !    If expansion stopped!.....I believe ALL Motion would stop!  The planets would stop in thier orbits...the waves on the sea would freeze as in a STILL photograph !!  .    .    ???   I really think so. !

     one more thought...on the nature of expansion.    The universe does not expand Outwardly .. because there is NOTHING to expand out into  so, it must be expanding Inwardly ...within itself !   At every point.   The universe has no center.  ? it IS it's center, at any point within.     ???    The same space/time that fills all of space....fills the space within our very atoms !   Which ,like all matter, are bound configurations of ENERGY.

ok,..that's enough.    Just read the bolded parts again with an open mind..     

The Universe is not expanding in upon itself, that's not called expansion it is called implosion. Another thing you not taking into account is the fact that the expansion that is occurring right now is an effect of the Big Bang. So when you have an explosion of that magnitude the result that will occur when the Universe stops expanding is implosion. In simple terms everything that was made by the explosion, will at some point begin to collapse back in upon itself until there is nothing left. 

This is explained in Newton's third law of Motion: "For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction"

peace

[Jujo-jo]

Well here's my two cents...

Watch "Alan Parsons Project Time" on YouTube

 

[Susanc241]

Personally, I have always understood time, as in the marking of it by clocks, night and day, seasons etc is just a construct of the brain.  Rocks, whole planets, stars and and whole galaxies wouldn’t be aware of the passage of time IMO in the same way, if at all.  Are less sentient animals who live in the now aware of the passing of time, or is a minute, an hour or a day, once gone, forgotten/not regarded and tomorrow is not even considered?

Time for us is our way of rationalising the passing of moments of now, giving us a framework to hang on to our own personal reality.

Time to walk the dog!

[Essan]

Time is an illusion (lunchtime doubly so).   Really it's just an expression of relative dimensions in space.   To travel through time means to travel through space.   But, unless you know your exact relative motion in the universe, time really makes no sense at all  

[lightly]

19 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Ok.  I don't think time has anything to do with expansion, and the universe expanding is a theory.  Maybe it has been proven, but I'm not sure about that.  Perception is the key and when multiple people perceive time or anything else differently then how can we make any claims about the reality of those perceptions?  If you sat and tried to determine how long 10 minutes is you would get different results every time you tried.  You could get close, depending on what you are thinking about and what is going on around you, but you would never be precise and sometimes 10 measured minutes (clock) would feel like 5 and sometimes it would feel like 20.  If you are on hold on a phone call you could be on hold for 40 seconds and think it is two minutes.  The problem is that our minds are not completely in the material world except for a few seconds at a time.  (practicing presence is a load of ****, you can't practice presence and be immune to what is going on around you, what you want for dinner, what someone said yesterday etc.) We are always thinking in terms of the past or future which is outside of time and space.

    I'm not sure either...about Anything.    But , some believe expansion has been proven by measurements of the Increasing Distance/Space between galaxies.   ( one exception is Andromeda and our Milky Way...which are being drawn together by gravity overpowering  expansion.

As for perceptions of time....I think that may be an aspect of old Albert's Relativity?

[lightly]

14 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

The Universe is not expanding in upon itself, that's not called expansion it is called implosion. Another thing you not taking into account is the fact that the expansion that is occurring right now is an effect of the Big Bang. So when you have an explosion of that magnitude the result that will occur when the Universe stops expanding is implosion. In simple terms everything that was made by the explosion, will at some point begin to collapse back in upon itself until there is nothing left. 

This is explained in Newton's third law of Motion: "For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction"

peace

I am absolutely "talking into account" the Big Bang.      Speaking of which...when did space/TIME begin?   Yes, with EXPANSION/Big Bang.    So, as we know...TIME began with EXPANSION.   I believe It is caused by expansion...which makes possible All other Motion.     Time is often referred to as the fourth Dimension....the dimension that Motion happens in.    ???

   As for the Big Bang being an "explosion".  . Most people see it that way...but it wasn't an explosion.   An explosion needs space to expand into.   There was and is no space outside of the universe/space.   As illogical as it may sound...The expansion IS happening within itself.

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, lightly said:

I am absolutely "talking into account" the Big Bang.      Speaking of which...when did space/TIME begin?   Yes, with EXPANSION/Big Bang.    So, as we know...TIME began with EXPANSION.   I believe It is caused by expansion...which makes possible All other Motion.     Time is often referred to as the fourth Dimension....the dimension that Motion happens in.    ???

   As for the Big Bang being an "explosion".  . Most people see it that way...but it wasn't an explosion.   An explosion needs space to expand into.   There was and is no space outside of the universe/space.   As illogical as it may sound...The expansion IS happening within itself.

While Space Time did start with Big Bang it didn't start with expansion, it started with the Explosion. You are really confused, you first have to look at what caused the expansion and again that was the Explosion. As far your comments that Motion only happens in the Fourth Dimension, isn't consistent at all,  Motion occurs in every Dimension and isn't governed by any Deminsion. So let's break it down in simple terms that fit within the confines of simple Physics. 

1) Before the Big Bang - There was some form of open void, possible an ultrahot dense material persisting in a steady state, or even another Universe that was complete destroyed when the Big Bang occurred. But these are theories that can never be proven or disproven. But according Dr. Steven Hawking what existed before the Big Bang doesn't matter because it is not measurable and can never be defined. 

2) Big Bang - The exact moment that The explosion occurred time and expansion began. The Big Bang is a moment in time not a point in space. No one knows exactly what happened in the our present Universe until 1 second after the Big Bang, when the Universe cooled off enough for Protons and Neutrons to collide and stick together. Most scientists think that the Universe went through a process of exponential expansion called inflation during that first second. This expansion is what we now call space, and thus Space Time was formed which smoothed out the fabric of whatever existed before and this explains why Matter is so evenly distributed in the Universe today.

3) There are many theories on how the Big Bang expanded. Here is another related theory that holds that the Big Bang wasn't the beginning of everything, but rather a moment in time when the current Universe switched from a period of contraction to a period of expansion. This theory is called the Big Bonce and this theory explains that there could be infinite Big Bangs that occur as the Universe expands, contracts and expands over and over again.

Last no one but you looks at the Big Bang and Space Time in the manner you see. Your PERSONAL theory is unique and can not be explained by any Scienfic Theory. That would in include Laws of Motion, General or Special Relativity or even Qantum Mechanics. So if you are really interested in what occurred do some research, at least then with the knowledge you will gain, you may be able to come up with a new theory that could make everything fit in place better than it does today.

Peace

Edited January 25, 2020 by Manwon Lender

[Grim Reaper 6]

23 hours ago, lightly said:

Expanding?    You know, the predominant theory that the 'universe' is expanding?   I dunno if I believe Anything about anything to be honest.   

   Space/Time continuum not real?    I 've always had my doubts about it too.  I'm just trying to make sence of time ...as an aspect of Expansion.   I think the idea is fascinating myself !

 However in the case of the Big Bang Time started the moment the explosion occurred followed by expansion or inflation depending on which theory you beleive is more accurate. Because you can't have expansion or inflation without a force creating it.

Peace 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Manwon Lender

[lightly]

20 hours ago, Piney said:

Why don't you drag Uncle @Harte into it.

He needs to be occupied. We're getting tired of his bad limericks. 

Uncle Harte knows almost everything...but ya. 

[lightly]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

 However in the case of the Big Bang Time started the moment the explosion occurred followed by expansion or inflation depending on which theory you beleive is more accurate. Because you can't have expansion or inflation without a force creating it.

Peace 

Thanks for the explanations Manwon.   I've heard most or all of it before...I'm not Completely ignorant ..just substantially so.

i hear what your saying...The Explosion.   Instead of simply loosing energy, like an explosion would.. "Created"  expansion OR inflation ,  and then the energy of the explosion began to dissipate ?  as we would expect an explosion to do ? and the growth of the universe began to slow....UNTIL...some mysterious force called dark energy came about to cause the growth to speed up!   Or at least to explain the accelerating expansion..!!!   ??

and yes, I know motion happens in the other three dimensions....I just mean without the forth dimension TIME  ...would ANYTHING MOVE ?   No, it wouldn't.        I still have never heard a good explanation of what causes time.   And Since it started with expansion ..... . .   I still like my idea of the Expansion of Space/Time....with Time expanding along with space.   

Anyone got a better explanation of what causes time?   

     

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 hours ago, lightly said:

Thanks for the explanations Manwon.   I've heard most or all of it before...I'm not Completely ignorant ..just substantially so.

i hear what your saying...The Explosion.   Instead of simply loosing energy, like an explosion would.. "Created"  expansion OR inflation ,  and then the energy of the explosion began to dissipate ?  as we would expect an explosion to do ? and the growth of the universe began to slow....UNTIL...some mysterious force called dark energy came about to cause the growth to speed up!   Or at least to explain the accelerating expansion..!!!   ??

and yes, I know motion happens in the other three dimensions....I just mean without the forth dimension TIME  ...would ANYTHING MOVE ?   No, it wouldn't.        I still have never heard a good explanation of what causes time.   And Since it started with expansion ..... . .   I still like my idea of the Expansion of Space/Time....with Time expanding along with space.   

Anyone got a better explanation of what causes time?   

     

 

I tried to have a conversation, but that isnt working so like another said submit your idea for a peer review, he even gave you a website where you can do it. But if you do I hope you have a thick skin, because your going to need it.

Peace

[lightly]

15 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I tried to have a conversation, but that isnt working so like another said submit your idea for a peer review, he even gave you a website where you can do it. But if you do I hope you have a thick skin, because your going to need it.

Peace

I'm willing to listen.  And learn.    And have a conversation ..   I'm just being defensive of my idea that time is expanding...along with space.   If that's completely stupid...fair enough. (Thickness of skin aside : )  I don't claim to Know Anything . I just think it's a very interesting idea. 

I completely agree with you that ,as you said, the exact  moment the explosion occured time and expansion began. (that's actually what I've been saying too)    (not sure I can agree with the term"explosion"  but I could be entirely Wrong .

and I basically agree with your statement  that " the Big Bang is a moment in time not a point in space"  ..Of course, because there was no space.... and Yes,  it was the FIRST moment of time.

   Would you discuss  something that you said?   You mentioned that "before the Big Bang happened" ..The Explosion ,as you referred to it, "There was some form of open void".    I'd never heard that before...i've always heard that there was NOTHING outside of the singularity (or "near singularly"as questionmark refers to it) before, or after the Big Bang.    I guess Nothing and void can both be Nothing...I just find your term "some FORM of open void"  confusing.   form usually means more than nothing?   

so, my question to you is....Do you think/believe there is still some form  of "open void"  Outsitde our universe?   (And ,if so, does that mean you think the universe has an outer boundary or edges of some sort?)

..I was going to ask you for a very brief discretion of Inflation  and  expansion....but I googled inflation to learn that IT was an "exponentially" , " explosively" rapid  "expansion" of the  universe...which occurred in the first ..less than a second ...of the "Big Bang."

sort of like...an explosion I suppose? 

love ;

Edited January 26, 2020 by lightly