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Orestes_3113

God (Ask Me Anything)

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Orestes_3113
10 minutes ago, iridescence said:

Thanks for the answer. What if evil is a facet of God? Do you think God entails dualism?

Scripture says evil is from the lineage of Cain or 'the Devil'. Which means it does not come from God. But evil is a necessary part in life, God has ordained it so else it would not be here. This is where the paradox shines because it is only through cycles that the good can prevail and so God (the good) does rule over evil.

An example lies in the story of Joseph who was sold into slavery:

You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. - Genesis 50:20

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Orestes_3113
13 minutes ago, iridescence said:

But if god is life and death, then it represents dualism. Good and Evil are part of life. And since God is everything, evil IS part of God.

The concept of light also creates the concept of dark but that does not mean light is dark. The rules of play however were established before light even began (logo of light). If you were to say there can be no God without Evil but they are not the same then you would be more right.

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Orestes_3113
1 hour ago, iridescence said:

You said that God has two sides and it is both life and death. And there is no light without dark, no good without evil. So God can't be good without being evil?

You know of my other thread where I relate to astrology, let me try to explain using these terms.

Saturn is always seen as the Lord, or he who is Lord over the Sabbath. His position is that of owner and he will cause you to die in the same way as eating from the tree of knowledge.

Then there is Jupiter, his Son who carries forth an oath. His position is that of ruler and he will cause you to live in the same was as eating from the tree of life. He is the type of Christ.

They both take part in the same system of heaven and so God can be said is One. But clearly you can venerate both, idolize either Saturn or Jupiter. But as Christ says he who has seen the father, has seen me for I and the father are one. And that is true also. The oath that Christ, as a son, holds can only be in accordance to his father's wishes.

 

Now if you insert the terms Good/Evil into this then the father 'is' Evil and the son is Good. and so is God(the father of) Evil? Or was space, or a set of conditions, created for the good(son) to blossom in the face of evil? As was the case in the story of Joseph, son of Jacob. God (the Father) is not necessarily the father of evil even if he allowed it to temporarily exist. Evil then is but a dog on a leash.

So now we have the Father with his dog, and the Son having to overcome his fear/ignorance. Are you still following? :blink:

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Orestes_3113
7 minutes ago, iridescence said:

Sorry that I couldn't reply earlier but I had to eat breakfast and also opened a thread.

You said that God is not evil the same as light is not dark. But then you said that the Father 'is' evil while the Son is good... and they are One. So basically this means that they are two sides of the same coin and God has a dual nature i.e. without life, there is no death, without light, there is no darkness and without beginning, there is no end. The reason why I asked you if God is death is because you also said that evil is the material world. So maybe death is the end of duality?

The material world is not necessarily evil, combined with ignorance it brings about evil. Life/death are part of duality i think, death does not end this.

Father and Son are on agreeable terms, they act in accord and are as one. The son holds his oath, the father can't unleash his dogs and if he does then there is a 'good' reason for it. All things from God are good even if the methods could be considered evil from our point of view.

The problem with evil is that it is untrustworthy, to attribute evil to God makes God untrustworthy. Acting at his leisure, that is not the case.

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Horta
On 1/25/2020 at 9:37 PM, Mark Sanders said:

It is my presumption that the notion of God(no matter the tradition) comes from a deep understanding of duality, the paradox it brings and how it plays out in life. Of course my understanding is limited as a human being but I have delved deep enough into the mysteries to know a bit more then the ordinary bloke. I invite you all to take a stab to see how long I can remain compelling.

..."remain compelling"? How about we see if you have anything compelling to begin with lol.

What is paradoxical about duality?

Does it (duality) really exist in nature to begin with, or is it  a product of the human mind?

Quote

And every season has an ascending, apex and descending portion.

Re the sun, and going by the solstices/equinoxes (as some countries simply use particular months) doesn't each season have either an ascending or descending portion, but not both? 

Edited by Horta

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Orestes_3113
54 minutes ago, Horta said:

..."remain compelling"? How about we see if you have anything compelling to begin with lol.

What is paradoxical about duality?

Does it (duality) really exist in nature to begin with, or is it  a product of the human mind?

The solstice seasons would have those (summer and winter). Wouldn't the equinoctial seasons only have either an ascending or descending portion, but not both (spring ascending,  fall/autumn descending)?

Nature abides.

Even the equinoctial seaons have a mid-season. It just so happens that in the cycle of a year it is either ascending or descending. A matter of frequencies.

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Horta
Just now, Mark Sanders said:

Nature abides.

Even the equinoctial seaons have a mid-season. It just so happens that in the cycle of a year it is either ascending or descending. A matter of frequencies.

Fair enough.

What is paradoxical about duality?

Does duality really exist in nature? For example hot/cold seems like a form of duality to us, it seems that our subjective mind that confers such properties from our limited human centric perspective. In reality it just denotes different temperatures.

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Orestes_3113
1 hour ago, Horta said:

Fair enough.

What is paradoxical about duality?

Does duality really exist in nature? For example hot/cold seems like a form of duality to us, it seems that our subjective mind that confers such properties from our limited human centric perspective. In reality it just denotes different temperatures.

And so does an electrical charge. In relativity we have a positive and negative end. I do agree that the sense of relativity is there, but polarity is there also. Hence he created them male and female.

So what to make of this objective 0-point it might not be there only in our experience. But without a notion of a  0-point, or an apex we cannot discern.

So what about nature? Nature abides these principles of relativity as well. Hot/cold in relativity of the sun being present etc. And so the heavenly bodies have their effect outside of us in like manner.

Now we have to look at society and discern. Not swaying for a discussion about causality. Can we see certain seasons play out? Like the Baby-Boom, or Arab-spring? Can we find processes like any other cycle and how can we relate them to 'something-else'.

To conclude. I confess relativity lies pretty much with the subject. I understand this leads to subjectivism and that all would be decided on an individual level (i guess we have free will). However looking at the seasons, I can see 'outside forces' interfering (as if they set the bar). Be it the passing of time in a struggle for survival or God's hand.

My question would be: Are we on a clock? Can we tell time? What certainty can we gain for the future? This then would tie in with evil being a dog on a leash. Or as Nietzsche would say:

Quote

As long as you still experience the stars as something "above you", you lack the eye of knowledge. - Nietzsche, Friedrich

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Orestes_3113

In addition.

If by relativity we gain understanding of the seasons, then the seasons themselves have been exalted to a knowable state. We can know summer, we can know winter... we can find the apex points of a season. (A discrete point in a continuous line)

Then so too by relativity we can gain understanding of the seasons of life so that they too become exalted to a knowable state. We can discern a good life from a bad one... we can find turning points in life, for better or worse. (Discern a good decision from a bad one)

If we turn to what is 'good' the sun will dawn... eventually.

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Desertrat56
On 1/25/2020 at 3:37 AM, Mark Sanders said:

It is my presumption that the notion of God(no matter the tradition) comes from a deep understanding of duality, the paradox it brings and how it plays out in life. Of course my understanding is limited as a human being but I have delved deep enough into the mysteries to know a bit more then the ordinary bloke. I invite you all to take a stab to see how long I can remain compelling.

Why do you think you know a bit more than the ordinary bloke?  Define ordinary bloke first.

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Horta
9 minutes ago, Mark Sanders said:

And so does an electrical charge. In relativity we have a positive and negative end. I do agree that the sense of relativity is there, but polarity is there also. Hence he created them male and female.

We also have neutrons (which are obviously neutral). A trinity? We also have hermaphrodite species, some sequentially hermaphrodite. There are also intersex humans for whom the idea of male/female isn't a straight forward thing.

Quote

So what to make of this objective 0-point it might not be there only in our experience. But without a notion of a  0-point, or an apex we cannot discern.

So what about nature? Nature abides these principles of relativity as well. Hot/cold in relativity of the sun being present etc. And so the heavenly bodies have their effect outside of us in like manner.

Fair enough. My only point was that duality as defined by humans usually relies on a subjective human pov for its existence. Though either way, we are stuck with such perceptions for the most part.

If there is a greater reality, it might well be beyond all notions of duality.  I have experienced it, very profound and lasting in it's effects, it has in some ways altered the way I view things forever.

Quote

Now we have to look at society and discern. Not swaying for a discussion about causality. Can we see certain seasons play out? Like the Baby-Boom, or Arab-spring? Can we find processes like any other cycle and how can we relate them to 'something-else'.

To conclude. I confess relativity lies pretty much with the subject. I understand this leads to subjectivism and that all would be deciding on an individual level. However looking at the seasons, I can see 'outside forces' interfering. Be it the passing of time in a struggle for survival or God's hand.

My question would be: Are we on a clock? Can we tell time? What certainty can we gain for the future?

Sounds like you are hinting at some doomsday or end times scenario?

I don't see any "supernatural" forces at play, but I have doubts our species will make it out of this century with population and societies anything like we are now (if at all). This will all be of our own making though.

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Orestes_3113
Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Why do you think you know a bit more than the ordinary bloke?  Define ordinary bloke first.

Walk outside and randomly ask someone about the topic. I went a bit deeper than simple surface level material. The statement might come off as arrogant but I have spent enough time to articulate my understanding.

My guess is that many on UM are also above the level of an ordinary bloke so I hope I am in good company:D.

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Orestes_3113
29 minutes ago, Horta said:

We also have neutrons (which are obviously neutral). A trinity? We also have hermaphrodite species, some sequentially hermaphrodite. There are also intersex humans for whom the idea of male/female isn't a straight forward thing.

To be blunt, deformaties are part of nature but in their elemental state we are still talking energy and potential differences. 

Considering the sexes that are in doubt, do whatever flows best. Blocks can be hazardous, unless someone is building a dam by choice.

29 minutes ago, Horta said:

Fair enough. My only point was that duality as defined by humans usually relies on a subjective human pov for its existence. Though either way, we are stuck with such perceptions for the most part.

If there is a greater reality, it might well be beyond all notions of duality.  I have experienced it, very profound and lasting in it's effects, it has in some ways altered the way I view things forever.

Experiences like that are great aren't they. Makes you wonder :tu:.

29 minutes ago, Horta said:

Sounds like you are hinting at some doomsday or end times scenario?

I don't see any "supernatural" forces at play, but I have doubts our species will make it out of this century with population and societies anything like we are now (if at all). This will all be of our own making though.

I see capitalism imploding, the nature of money is such that the pool needs to increase to sustain productivity. Demand is often fake, instilled by consumerism and fads. We are now in a time of finance capitalism where the value of assets are becoming unstable.

Much like a third trimester pregnant woman, the waters at one time will break. Liquidity will run down and food will be scarce. It will not be pretty.

But at the same time it is the birthing of a new world so this too is a matter of perspective. It is as if the world is borrowing to finish the baby-room :wub:.

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Desertrat56
11 minutes ago, Mark Sanders said:

Walk outside and randomly ask someone about the topic. I went a bit deeper than simple surface level material. The statement might come off as arrogant but I have spent enough time to articulate my understanding.

My guess is that many on UM are also above the level of an ordinary bloke so I hope I am in good company:D.

You did not define ordinary bloke.  I asked for your definition, not a homework project.  So far not compelling.

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Orestes_3113
14 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

You did not define ordinary bloke.  I asked for your definition, not a homework project.  So far not compelling.

On a scale from retard to geek I would define him bloke, an ordinary kind.

Edited by Mark Sanders
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Desertrat56
9 minutes ago, Mark Sanders said:

On a scale from retard to geek I would define him bloke, an ordinary kind.

Still not a definition.  You can't define "ordinary bloke" because it is a construct in your mind that you use to compare yourself to others, which is only valid in your mind, no one else's.  Ordinary is a subjective term.

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Orestes_3113
9 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Still not a definition.  You can't define "ordinary bloke" because it is a construct in your mind that you use to compare yourself to others, which is only valid in your mind, no one else's.  Ordinary is a subjective term.

Aha so there was a point to the question. I'll refer you to a few posts above.

In short if time was linear I would agree. But with a cyclical nature we can understand who is the blokest of them all (atleast per cycle).

7ee2a1407e4cc08eb02fe92544764300.jpg

This is where the tragedies come to life. Abstract constructs of the ideal.

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Hammerclaw
34 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Still not a definition.  You can't define "ordinary bloke" because it is a construct in your mind that you use to compare yourself to others, which is only valid in your mind, no one else's.  Ordinary is a subjective term.

Ordinary blokes aren't internet BS artists with anime avatars, silly.

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Ordinary blokes aren't internet BS artists with anime avatars, silly.

It's optimus prime.

Edited by XenoFish
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Hammerclaw
9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's optimus prime.

A Japanese Anime Character from the Transformers franchise, yes.

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Desertrat56
13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's optimus prime.

I never saw Optimus Prime wearing a cowboy hat.  :lol:

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XenoFish
Just now, Desertrat56 said:

I never saw Optimus Prime wearing a cowboy hat.  :lol:

Wagonmus Prime? 

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Horta
On 1/28/2020 at 4:04 AM, Mark Sanders said:

To be blunt, deformaties are part of nature but in their elemental state we are still talking energy and potential differences. 

Considering the sexes that are in doubt, do whatever flows best. Blocks can be hazardous, unless someone is building a dam by choice.

That's the point though. Nature and evolution simply does its thing, it is us humans that confer titles such as "deformity" based on our pov. Understandably so in many instances, to the extent we can alleviate suffering. Yet in other instances it is a grey area. We have probably suffered countless millions of slight or incremental "deformities" in our evolutionary history from hermaphroditic sea creatures to mammals, and many not so slight.

The idea that there is an ideal of what a "male/female" human should be and that this is somehow static isn't based on reality, it is based on human centric ignorance.

So if you're saying that this observation is in part what ancient and ignorant people (that had no understanding of biology/evolution) used as some basis for their religious myths, that might be so. But if your'e saying it is based on reality, that's clearly wrong and leads to all manner of bigotry. The majority of humans at this stage could be placed in some ideal of "male/female", but there also exists the minority...

If you don't believe in evolution, but think god both wants and tries to create stereotypical male and female humans, then it's reasonable to conclude that god is both incompetent and an idiot lol.

Quote

I see capitalism imploding, the nature of money is such that the pool needs to increase to sustain productivity. Demand is often fake, instilled by consumerism and fads. We are now in a time of finance capitalism where the value of assets are becoming unstable.

It wouldn't be the first time capitalism has imploded, only to reinvent itself. We really have nothing to replace it with if we wanted to. It has helped the living standards of most people, yet Marx was also correct that it results in inherent inequality. Capitalism is similar to Churchill's observation about democracy in that "it's the worst system you could think of, except for all of the other ones we have tried" lol.

There are alternatives that have been successful, such as more democratic forms of capitalism. I often think it is overblown in what it is credited with anyway, our ability with fossil fuel use has been of much greater importance.

It's greatest problem is that it requires constant growth, which leads to the crux of our real problem. Overpopulation. That is probably central to the many threats humanity will confront this century.

 

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Orestes_3113
9 hours ago, Horta said:

That's the point though. Nature and evolution simply does its thing, it is us humans that confer titles such as "deformity" based on our pov. Understandably so in many instances, to the extent we can alleviate suffering. Yet in other instances it is a grey area. We have probably suffered countless millions of slight or incremental "deformities" in our evolutionary history from hermaphroditic sea creatures to mammals, and many not so slight.

The idea that there is an ideal of what a "male/female" human should be and that this is somehow static isn't based on reality, it is based on human centric ignorance.

So if you're saying that this observation is in part what ancient and ignorant people (that had no understanding of biology/evolution) used as some basis for their religious myths, that might be so. But if your'e saying it is based on reality, that's clearly wrong and leads to all manner of bigotry. The majority of humans at this stage could be placed in some ideal of "male/female", but there also exists the minority...

If you don't believe in evolution, but think god both wants and tries to create stereotypical male and female humans, then it's reasonable to conclude that god is both incompetent and an idiot lol.

Evolution is a process that falls within logical bounds. Or simply put I believe in evolution. Logical bounds follow logic, logos, the Word or God if you will. Understanding the world or cosmos = understanding God. Given that the book are about the logic of God, they are speaking about the world we are researching with science but in a different manner. They simply contemplated the nature of the Good, the One, or God and from this they constructed stories that adhere to principles derived from their contemplation.

So if their assumption of the nature of One is correct then the Bible should be confirmed by science in the long run.

9 hours ago, Horta said:

It wouldn't be the first time capitalism has imploded, only to reinvent itself. We really have nothing to replace it with if we wanted to. It has helped the living standards of most people, yet Marx was also correct that it results in inherent inequality. Capitalism is similar to Churchill's observation about democracy in that "it's the worst system you could think of, except for all of the other ones we have tried" lol.

There are alternatives that have been successful, such as more democratic forms of capitalism. I often think it is overblown in what it is credited with anyway, our ability with fossil fuel use has been of much greater importance.

It's greatest problem is that it requires constant growth, which leads to the crux of our real problem. Overpopulation. That is probably central to the many threats humanity will confront this century.

I totally agree. It is this process of growing and then imploding which to me is the heart of the story of Babel, Moses and the Revelations of John. Simply a description of a process in which we all live if we live in a peaceful society (which we do). And like a pregnant woman, there will come a time for labor. However painful, it brings new life. It is just that currently our bull run has been over a 1000yrs with technological aid so we have become insensitive to the dangers of collapse.

The only difference from my position to that of atheists is that I believe in God, One or the Good as a principle that cannot be objectified but nevertheless is static and very real. This is the subject of faith, for faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. - Hebrews 11:1

Even if God itself cannot be objectified consequential processes can. By their fruits you will know them and so we study the process of increasing yield to earn a better profit, science then is an application that follows what is set forth from One. It's artefacts(body of knowledge) are still images in understanding (idols) of a continuous process of infinite complexity (Life, One, God, Good).

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Orestes_3113
1 hour ago, Mark Sanders said:

It's greatest problem is that it requires constant growth, which leads to the crux of our real problem. Overpopulation. That is probably central to the many threats humanity will confront this century.

I do want to get a bit more into this. The way I see it, money is dependent upon consumersim, fads and fashion. Needless stuff that consumers spend their money on, without money flowing capitalism stagnates and we need that economic growth (GDP) to sustain value in our currency. A little depreciation helps consumers overcoming the fear of investment because the other option is depreciation. And so we are bound to low inflation (deflation stagnates, high inflation well that is simply punishment lol).

How do we grow GDP? We need more economic activity which in its extreme form is simply slave labor. And this slave labor then appears as overpopulation, but is it really? If we were to invest less energyin fads, fashion and consumer gadgets and more into simple clothing and simple but robust housing and food (the essentials) then the earth could perhaps have plenty. The problem is we would not have an economy due to the lack of economic forces.

Point being poverty to a large extent is merely an accounting problem, a lack of balance.

No economy, no society. Unless we all denounce materialism (and with it superficial hedonism).

Edited by Mark Sanders

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