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Orestes_3113

God (Ask Me Anything)

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Horta
20 hours ago, Mark Sanders said:

IMO regarldess of who comes in power. Money by its very nature will bring poverty to many. Cannot be helped, simply a matter of time, the system will break.

True, history tells us humanity will probably never be without an impoverished class, regardless of how much wealth there is. I remember reading a piece from an economist long ago, arguing at the time that there was enough wealth for everyone on earth to be comfortable/ middle class. Yet that notion has probably gone now, as earths population has more than doubled since then.

While some political systems seem better than others, even some of the better ones now seem to simply be bureaucracies aimed at implementing capitalism, rather than having the ulterior aim of equitable and highly functioning societies with educated and healthy populations (physically and psychologically). Somehow seems like the tail wagging the dog and it all needs a tweak. It is probably better described as Darwinian Capitalism and I'm not that sure we have evolved very far from feudalism in principle. Generally people don't care though as long as it's someone else who is doing it tough and they get trinkets and entertainment.

I agree the system is likely to break irreparably, along with our societies. If not from capitalism itself, from the flow on effects of a system based on the need for constant growth. I can notice changes concerning various other species we share the planet with (yet seem to have no empathy for) and have for a while. I know of scientists who simply don't wish to have families because they feel it would be unfair to bring people into the world, given the way it's headed.

It's interesting that you base this on things like "duality" and "cycles". I base it on something very different but have reached similar conclusions.

 

 

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Habitat
3 minutes ago, Horta said:

I can notice changes concerning various other species we share the planet with (yet seem to have no empathy for)

?????

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Horta
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

?????

The change is that they are disappearing in the areas I get to.

Seems the small carnivores are suffering first. They were already strained from invasive species, now something else is happening.

Certain venomous reptile species that I used to find plentiful are now difficult to find also, if not impossible. Along with the frogs they used to eat.

Sadly, not an uncommon story around the world, which is definitely changing.

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Habitat
Just now, Horta said:

The change is that they are disappearing in the areas I get to.

Seems the small carnivores are suffering first. They were already strained from invasive species, now something else is happening.

Certain venomous reptile species that I used to find plentiful are now difficult to find also, if not impossible. Along with the frogs they used to eat.

Sadly, not an uncommon story around the world, which is definitely changing.

Frogs seem definitely in decline, insects are in decline, something is afoot.

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Crikey said:

 

All I know is that if I wanted to put a kid off Jesus for life, I'd drag him to church against his will..

lol Yea well a good way to put a child off anything is to force them to attend it .

On the other hand they may or may not appreciate their parents' values and beliefs when they become adults and develop their own. 

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, Habitat said:

What has that to do with childhood religious "instruction", though ? Plenty of children are brought up with virtually zero religious indoctrination today, and few go "feral".

The book actually compared modern children brought up without values empathy, self discipline or skills, with boys the same age in "Coral Island"land who were a cabin boy and a couple of his mates  and had the responsibilities of adults at the same age  marooned on an island and having to survive The original boys may have been a little older  in years but much much more so in experiences, wisdom, discipline, and character than the modern ones.  

Those boys from  the 1800s survived and prospered The modern ones began killing each other 

My point was that children do not evolve constructive ethics and moralities by themselves. These have to be taught and made part of a child's habitual behaviour through practice and discipline  

A secular humanist can teach Their  children secular humanist values, a religious person their own values.

Adults have had time and experience to see how beliefs and behaviours workout in the real world 

WITHOUT values and the regulation of authority, children do, and will,go "feral"  Even many adults do so  but kids are much more vulnerable due to lack of experience and the fact their brain has not yet grown the bits necessary for control and  self regulation. 

 

https://whisperseer.com/lord-of-the-flies-coral-island-and-the-role-of-adults

Edited by Mr Walker

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Orestes_3113
3 hours ago, Horta said:

It's interesting that you base this on things like "duality" and "cycles". I base it on something very different but have reached similar conclusions.

I base the nature of cycles(the 12, 7 and 49) on the duality/one paradox if i can call it that. And I can clearly see cyclical patterns in history. But then I detach.

Economic collapse I have reasoned by contemplating money itself. The forces that are needed to maintain value. Including things like a commercial code and that goes all the way back to Hammurabi and before.

So there are God's laws (eye for an eye) based on an emotional level. And commercial laws (being fined for transgression). Commercial laws are a tool for density growth, humanization as well. Which is why we see 'Sodom & Gomora' at the end of economic cycles. Themes like diversity etc are merely tools in a tool box to keep things stable. Although this has nothing to do with the value of money, it serves as an indicator for the times we live in.

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Sherapy
13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The book actually compared modern children brought up without values empathy, self discipline or skills, with boys the same age in "Coral Island"land who were a cabin boy and a couple of his mates  and had the responsibilities of adults at the same age  marooned on an island and having to survive The original boys may have been a little older  in years but much much more so in experiences, wisdom, discipline, and character than the modern ones.  

Those boys from  the 1800s survived and prospered The modern ones began killing each other 

My point was that children do not evolve constructive ethics and moralities by themselves. These have to be taught and made part of a child's habitual behaviour through practice and discipline  

A secular humanist can teach Their  children secular humanist values, a religious person their own values.

Adults have had time and experience to see how beliefs and behaviours workout in the real world 

WITHOUT values and the regulation of authority, children do, and will,go "feral"  Even many adults do so  but kids are much more vulnerable due to lack of experience and the fact their brain has not yet grown the bits necessary for control and  self regulation. 

 

https://whisperseer.com/lord-of-the-flies-coral-island-and-the-role-of-adults

Wally, ”Coral Island” wasn’t a comparison to Lord of the Flies it was in contrast it was “more realistic” an irony, basically. Golding honed in on the “agreeable triumvirate” aspect of the boys who were marooned on Coral Island on a a coral reef in the South Seas a dichotomy between the unrealistic and Golding’s “Lord of the Flies realistic.” Then there is a third influence Miltons “Paradise Lost” the Fall of Man, which we see the boys descend into their own evil nature. 
 

The purpose of “Lord of the Flies according to Golding is [that ] the theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."—William Golding

 

You state “My point was that children do not evolve constructive ethics and moralities by themselves. These have to be taught and made part of a child's habitual behaviour through practice and discipline” (Wally).

Your advice doesn’t hold up these kids came to the island god fearing, capable, civil even happy at first it was human nature that got them in the end. 

Lord of the Flies is an exploration of human nature, how the breakdown of the rational process and rational control the descent into ones own evil nature, it explores how the environment (external factors) influence human nature ( internal factors) 

Each boy fits what Jung calls a Psychological type “Mans Search of a Soul.” 

Jung quotes,“When we think, it is in order to judge or to reach a conclusion , and when we feel it is in order to attach a proper value to something; sensation and intuition on the other hand are perceptive-they make us aware of what is happening,  it do not interpret or evaluate it. They don’t act selectively according to principles, but are simply receptive of what happens.”

According to this schema: Simon models intuition hence Simon’s “the beast is only us” Jack is sensation type he is sensory for ex: if the beasts exists he will hunt it and kill it. Piggy is thinking type, and Ralph is the feeling type for example, he sees the practical meaning in the conch, Ralph sees the emotional value in it, “the boys coming together to be heard.”
 

The take away from “Lord of the Flies” is we can all be vulnerable to our own horrible selves give the right circumstances,u no one is above their human nature.

Walls, hun you are wrong the best approach when you are raising kids is to be honest about the reality they will have to deal with. I always told my kids while mistakes are a good thing there are some kind of mistakes you don't want to make ever. The best thing for your kid is stressing how to think, and that they think for themselves, don’t ever advocate for things that encourage one to suspend or to not use critical thinking, this is what I advocated, think for yourself and this includes religion if you can’t ask questions or bring your own voice run don’t walk away. 
 

Now a days it isn’t such a concern because critical thinking is being taught in kindergarten, this is a good thing, 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Wally, ”Coral Island” wasn’t a comparison to Lord of the Flies it was in contrast it was “more realistic” an irony, basically. Golding honed in on the “agreeable triumvirate” aspect of the boys who were marooned on Coral Island on a a coral reef in the South Seas a dichotomy between the unrealistic and Golding’s “Lord of the Flies realistic.” Then there is a third influence Miltons “Paradise Lost” the Fall of Man, which we see the boys descend into their own evil nature. 
 

The purpose of “Lord of the Flies according to Golding is [that ] the theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."—William Golding

 

You state “My point was that children do not evolve constructive ethics and moralities by themselves. These have to be taught and made part of a child's habitual behaviour through practice and discipline” (Wally).

Your advice doesn’t hold up these kids came to the island god fearing, capable, civil even happy at first it was human nature that got them in the end. 

Lord of the Flies is an exploration of human nature, how the breakdown of the rational process and rational control the descent into ones own evil nature, it explores how the environment (external factors) influence human nature ( internal factors) 

Each boy fits what Jung calls a Psychological type “Mans Search of a Soul.” 

Jung quotes,“When we think, it is in order to judge or to reach a conclusion , and when we feel it is in order to attach a proper value to something; sensation and intuition on the other hand are perceptive-they make us aware of what is happening,  it do not interpret or evaluate it. They don’t act selectively according to principles, but are simply receptive of what happens.”

According to this schema: Simon models intuition hence Simon’s “the beast is only us” Jack is sensation type he is sensory for ex: if the beasts exists he will hunt it and kill it. Piggy is thinking type, and Ralph is the feeling type for example, he sees the practical meaning in the conch, Ralph sees the emotional value in it, “the boys coming together to be heard.”
 

The take away from “Lord of the Flies” is we can all be vulnerable to our own horrible selves give the right circumstances,u no one is above their human nature.

Walls, hun you are wrong the best approach when you are raising kids is to be honest about the reality they will have to deal with. I always told my kids while mistakes are a good thing there are some kind of mistakes you don't want to make ever. The best thing for your kid is stressing how to think, and that they think for themselves, don’t ever advocate for things that encourage one to suspend or to not use critical thinking, this is what I advocated, think for yourself and this includes religion if you can’t ask questions or bring your own voice run don’t walk away. 
 

Now a days it isn’t such a concern because critical thinking is being taught in kindergarten, this is a good thing, 

 

Umm yes That was my point

Golding wrote lord of the flies to show how much mankind had deteriorated from the 1800s in many ways despite our more material and comfortable lives .

How children today are less disciplined, less practically competent, less encouraged to become adults in the real world through work and responsibility Less moral  and more feral when deprived of adult direction and authority  It was set up as a contrast to the narrative of coral island as a deliberate exercise.

it is a well used example in schools of comparing and contrasting two texts 

Golding was not a very optimistic writer and held quite pessimistic views about the  nature of man  However i did really enjoy Marathon Man  by him 

The change came when the y were derived of adult control and authority  Of course Golding is not very complimentary about even adult moralities  in this book which is set during a nuclear war 

The point is train a child, teach it skills,  discipline, and self  confidence and it will do much better than most modern children who are deprived of those opportunities and given too much freedom and not enough  responsibility 

One take away is that humans CAN rise above their primate natures but in this case were never shown how to do so. By contrast the boys in coral island were given the skills and training to be better human beings than those in lord of the flies, and rose to this, when challenged with real isolation and dangers  

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Umm yes That was my point

Golding wrote lord of the flies to show how much mankind had deteriorated from the 1800s in many ways despite our more material and comfortable lives .

How children today are less disciplined, less practically competent, less encouraged to become adults in the real world through work and responsibility Less moral  and more feral when deprived of adult direction and authority  It was set up as a contrast to the narrative of coral island as a deliberate exercise.

it is a well used example in schools of comparing and contrasting two texts 

Golding was not a very optimistic writer and held quite pessimistic views about the  nature of man  However i did really enjoy Marathon Man  by him 

The change came when the y were derived of adult control and authority  Of course Golding is not very complimentary about even adult moralities  in this book which is set during a nuclear war 

The point is train a child, teach it skills,  discipline, and self  confidence and it will do much better than most modern children who are deprived of those opportunities and given too much freedom and not enough  responsibility 

One take away is that humans CAN rise above their primate natures but in this case were never shown how to do so. By contrast the boys in coral island were given the skills and training to be better human beings than those in lord of the flies, and rose to this, when challenged with real isolation and dangers  

Golding speaking for himself.

“the theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."—William Golding

You are wrong that is my point.

There is nothin to quarrel about.

Stand corrected and move on. :D

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Habitat

That was a work of fiction, not a real tale.

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Mr Walker
59 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Golding speaking for himself.

“the theme is an attempt to trace the defects of society to the defects of human nature. The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable."—William Golding

You are wrong that is my point.

There is nothin to quarrel about.

Stand corrected and move on. :D

 

lol You reckon i just google

I am not disagreeing with that brief quote of goldings. i already explained that his nature and views on humanity informed his writing. however he deliberately juxtaposed lord of the flies against coral island (using the same setting, circumstances, and even character names)  to expose what he saw as flaws in MODERN humanity and child raising 

Maybe the point is that you never read or know anything about coral island, its writer and characters. 

Golding points out that in coral island the boys were given values and ethics, enforced by both discipline and skills.

Modern children lack all these things( in his view) and so, when left alone, became feral and animal rather than civilized.

I would  advise reading a few of the dozens of articles and pieces examining his issue 

quote

It is known that to fully appreciate the novel “Lord of the Flies” (1954) by William Golding (1911-1993) it is needed to have actually checked out Robert Michael Ballantyne’s (1825-1894) “Coral Island” (1858 ), or a minimum of to understand its theme and treatment. Therefore, considering that it was Golding’s intention to set himself to write an island story that deliberately challenged Ballantyne’s design in “Coral Island” -by inverting its presumptions and worths- we can explore multiple angles from which the 2 novels can be compared and studied.

https://whisperseer.com/lord-of-the-flies-coral-island-and-the-role-of-adults

quote

The Coral Island: A Tale of the Pacific Ocean is a book written by R. M. Ballantyne and published in 1858. Golding was supposedly partially inspired to write Lord of the Flies because of his childhood experience with Ballantyne's book.

There are a lot of similarities between the two books. For example, both books have main characters named Jack and Ralph. The setting of both books is an island where the boys are stranded and forced to fend for themselves. Further, fire plays an important role in both books.

Despite these similarities, there are some key differences between the books. For example, Jack and Ralph successfully work together to build shelters and canoes in The Coral Island, while Jack and Ralph of Lord of the Flies do not cooperate successfully—in fact, Jack nearly orchestrates Ralph's murder in Golding's novel. The fire, while important in both novels, is used to very different effects. In Lord of the Flies, the fire is used by Jack as a weapon of destruction. The fire in The Coral Island is used to rid the island of "false gods" and ultimately to restore peace.

Golding doesn't try to hide his book's similarities. In fact, in two different locations, readers see that Golding specifically name-drops Ballantyne's book. 

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/how-lord-flies-related-coral-island-1451638

 

https://freebooksummary.com/literary-comparison-of-ballantynes-coral-island-and-goldings-lord-of-the-flies-11172

Again, and with respect, there are a few things you really should not argue with me about and definitely should not attempt to correct me on :)   

Ive been examining, discussing, and writing/setting tasks on this topic for over 50 years ever since it became popular as a novel in schools.

  I read coral island first, in the mid 50s, and lord of the flies in the late fifties or early sixties. 

Even as a child(10 or so years old)  i could see what golding  was doing and had some understanding of why.  I knew even than how the war and the cold war affected writers like Golding and Tolkien, and informed their views on human nature

Tell me, what if any, academic study did you do on this debate during your schooling?

How much research have you  done on it over the years, and were you even aware of the link betwenthe novels, and their themes, before this discussion? 

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

That was a work of fiction, not a real tale.

both were fictional but both had a similar purpose.

they were designed and written as morality tales for their age.

The difference lay in the ages and thus the writers perspectives. Ballantyne was a mid19th. century writer with victorian values ideals moralities and perspectives including optimism Golding was a disillusioned man who had known wars and was living through the threat of the cold war and nuclear extinction .

he deliberately wrote a story based on his much more pessimistic view of children (and of humanity)  BUT the difference lay actually in the  children and how the y were raised    The two sets of  children were raised 100 years apart and  showed how much more discipline skills and responsibility young men had in the mid 1800s compared to the mid 1900s. 

Yes the children were a bit younger inGoldings story but not significantly so  The difference was in their own values, ethics, skills and discipline. 

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Habitat

I remember when I was in grade 4 and the teacher said she had to leave the class for a few minutes, and little Johnny will stand out front and read the chapter to the class. Right, she left to attend to whatever she needed to, little Johnny read for a maximum of ten seconds, someone threw something at him, and by about the twenty second mark, the whole class was throwing stuff at each other, I wasn't, and was dumbstruck how quickly it had happened. 

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, Habitat said:

That was a work of fiction, not a real tale.

No shyt Sherlock.

 

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

No shyt Sherlock.

 

It can't be taken as a accurate guide to children's behaviour, so why invoke it in the discussion ?

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol You reckon i just google

I am not disagreeing with that brief quote of goldings. i already explained that his nature and views on humanity informed his writing. however he deliberately juxtaposed lord of the flies against coral island (using the same setting, circumstances, and even character names)  to expose what he saw as flaws in MODERN humanity and child raising 

Maybe the point is that you never read or know anything about coral island, its writer and characters. 

Golding points out that in coral island the boys were given values and ethics, enforced by both discipline and skills.

Modern children lack all these things( in his view) and so, when left alone, became feral and animal rather than civilized.

I would  advise reading a few of the dozens of articles and pieces examining his issue 

quote

It is known that to fully appreciate the novel “Lord of the Flies” (1954) by William Golding (1911-1993) it is needed to have actually checked out Robert Michael Ballantyne’s (1825-1894) “Coral Island” (1858 ), or a minimum of to understand its theme and treatment. Therefore, considering that it was Golding’s intention to set himself to write an island story that deliberately challenged Ballantyne’s design in “Coral Island” -by inverting its presumptions and worths- we can explore multiple angles from which the 2 novels can be compared and studied.

https://whisperseer.com/lord-of-the-flies-coral-island-and-the-role-of-adults

quote

The Coral Island: A Tale of the Pacific Ocean is a book written by R. M. Ballantyne and published in 1858. Golding was supposedly partially inspired to write Lord of the Flies because of his childhood experience with Ballantyne's book.

There are a lot of similarities between the two books. For example, both books have main characters named Jack and Ralph. The setting of both books is an island where the boys are stranded and forced to fend for themselves. Further, fire plays an important role in both books.

Despite these similarities, there are some key differences between the books. For example, Jack and Ralph successfully work together to build shelters and canoes in The Coral Island, while Jack and Ralph of Lord of the Flies do not cooperate successfully—in fact, Jack nearly orchestrates Ralph's murder in Golding's novel. The fire, while important in both novels, is used to very different effects. In Lord of the Flies, the fire is used by Jack as a weapon of destruction. The fire in The Coral Island is used to rid the island of "false gods" and ultimately to restore peace.

Golding doesn't try to hide his book's similarities. In fact, in two different locations, readers see that Golding specifically name-drops Ballantyne's book. 

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/how-lord-flies-related-coral-island-1451638

 

https://freebooksummary.com/literary-comparison-of-ballantynes-coral-island-and-goldings-lord-of-the-flies-11172

Again, and with respect, there are a few things you really should not argue with me about and definitely should not attempt to correct me on :)   

Ive been examining, discussing, and writing/setting tasks on this topic for over 50 years ever since it became popular as a novel in schools.

  I read coral island first, in the mid 50s, and lord of the flies in the late fifties or early sixties. 

Even as a child(10 or so years old)  i could see what golding  was doing and had some understanding of why.  I knew even than how the war and the cold war affected writers like Golding and Tolkien, and informed their views on human nature

Tell me, what if any, academic study did you do on this debate during your schooling?

How much research have you  done on it over the years, and were you even aware of the link betwenthe novels, and their themes, before this discussion? 

 

 

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol You reckon i just google

I am not disagreeing with that brief quote of goldings. i already explained that his nature and views on humanity informed his writing. however he deliberately juxtaposed lord of the flies against coral island (using the same setting, circumstances, and even character names)  to expose what he saw as flaws in MODERN humanity and child raising 

Maybe the point is that you never read or know anything about coral island, its writer and characters. 

Golding points out that in coral island the boys were given values and ethics, enforced by both discipline and skills.

Modern children lack all these things( in his view) and so, when left alone, became feral and animal rather than civilized.

I would  advise reading a few of the dozens of articles and pieces examining his issue 

quote

It is known that to fully appreciate the novel “Lord of the Flies” (1954) by William Golding (1911-1993) it is needed to have actually checked out Robert Michael Ballantyne’s (1825-1894) “Coral Island” (1858 ), or a minimum of to understand its theme and treatment. Therefore, considering that it was Golding’s intention to set himself to write an island story that deliberately challenged Ballantyne’s design in “Coral Island” -by inverting its presumptions and worths- we can explore multiple angles from which the 2 novels can be compared and studied.

https://whisperseer.com/lord-of-the-flies-coral-island-and-the-role-of-adults

quote

The Coral Island: A Tale of the Pacific Ocean is a book written by R. M. Ballantyne and published in 1858. Golding was supposedly partially inspired to write Lord of the Flies because of his childhood experience with Ballantyne's book.

There are a lot of similarities between the two books. For example, both books have main characters named Jack and Ralph. The setting of both books is an island where the boys are stranded and forced to fend for themselves. Further, fire plays an important role in both books.

Despite these similarities, there are some key differences between the books. For example, Jack and Ralph successfully work together to build shelters and canoes in The Coral Island, while Jack and Ralph of Lord of the Flies do not cooperate successfully—in fact, Jack nearly orchestrates Ralph's murder in Golding's novel. The fire, while important in both novels, is used to very different effects. In Lord of the Flies, the fire is used by Jack as a weapon of destruction. The fire in The Coral Island is used to rid the island of "false gods" and ultimately to restore peace.

Golding doesn't try to hide his book's similarities. In fact, in two different locations, readers see that Golding specifically name-drops Ballantyne's book. 

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/how-lord-flies-related-coral-island-1451638

 

https://freebooksummary.com/literary-comparison-of-ballantynes-coral-island-and-goldings-lord-of-the-flies-11172

Again, and with respect, there are a few things you really should not argue with me about and definitely should not attempt to correct me on :)   

Ive been examining, discussing, and writing/setting tasks on this topic for over 50 years ever since it became popular as a novel in schools.

  I read coral island first, in the mid 50s, and lord of the flies in the late fifties or early sixties. 

Even as a child(10 or so years old)  i could see what golding  was doing and had some understanding of why.  I knew even than how the war and the cold war affected writers like Golding and Tolkien, and informed their views on human nature

Tell me, what if any, academic study did you do on this debate during your schooling?

How much research have you  done on it over the years, and were you even aware of the link betwenthe novels, and their themes, before this discussion? 

 

Now you are just googling, I already did the heavy lifting.

Fair enough, your analysis does seem to be of one who read this book 50 years ago. I didn’t want to be rude, but it seems it has been a long time....

It reminds me of your Canterbury Tales analysis. :P

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
14 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It can't be taken as a accurate guide to children's behaviour, so why invoke it in the discussion ?

You don’t read Literature I take it? 

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Habitat
Just now, Sherapy said:

You don’t read Literature I take it? 

Of course I have read literature, but I would not be using it to make a point about human behaviour, so much as actual practical examples.

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Mr Walker
24 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It can't be taken as a accurate guide to children's behaviour, so why invoke it in the discussion ?

Ithink it accurately reflected two authors views on the nature of mankind and especially of young peole.

As an historian i can see a lot of accuracy in their behaviours Eg back in the 1800s young boys were officers int he royal navy and had to lead adult sailors on board and into battles  Thus the y learned the skills and disciplines of adulthood and authority, often,before they were teenagers 

In the fifties society was beginning its disintegration which occurred over the next half a century or so.

Young boys were kept a t school under the authority of others and never had to learn the skills and disciplines needed to survive without adult supervision  

I think Ballantyne was a bit optimistic and Golding  a bt pessimistic, but i think that overall they  both got the nature of the boys about right 

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Sherapy
12 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Of course I have read literature, but I would not be using it to make a point about human behaviour, so much as actual practical examples.

So?

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Sherapy
7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Ithink it accurately reflected two authors views on the nature of mankind and especially of young peole.

As an historian i can see a lot of accuracy in their behaviours Eg back in the 1800s young boys were officers int he royal navy and had to lead adult sailors on board and into battles  Thus the y learned the skills and disciplines of adulthood and authority, often,before they were teenagers 

In the fifties society was beginning its disintegration which occurred over the next half a century or so.

Young boys were kept a t school under the authority of others and never had to learn the skills and disciplines needed to survive without adult supervision  

I think Ballantyne was a bit optimistic and Golding  a bt pessimistic, but i think that overall they  both got the nature of the boys about right 

While your analysis is to superficial for my tastes,  I commend you for referencing this in the first place and I agree whole heartedly that there is a lot of truth in fiction. 
 

These works are masterpieces and they are mean to stimulate discussion. 
 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker
20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

Now you are just googling, I already did the heavy lifting.

Fair enough, your analysis does seem to be of one who read this book 50 years ago. I didn’t want to be rude, but it seems it has been a long time....

It reminds me of your Canterbury Tales analysis. :P

 

lol cant help yourself can you ?

I might have read the books originally 50 years ago, but revisited and taught them and used them as comparative studies in English  throughout my teaching 

I googled to show your google was wrong, or at least too brief and incomplete 

I could have simply told you so, but then you would have demanded proof :) 

And nothing much has changed about the study of chaucer's works. 

We were required to read them and interpret them from the original old english.

Dont know if the y do that anymore. I was helped by also having a good knowledge of the history of the peoples of the time so I understood the roles of the people described and why Chaucer approved of some and parodied others,  and a years study of latin 

I doubt you have ANY academic background in either those two novels or Chaucer.

If you do, it would be just that which a teacher like me might have given to you in class. 

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Habitat
8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

So?

It is fiction, it would be far more instructive to examine actual cases, if there are any, of children alone, but there are certainly quite a few examples of what has occurred with stranded groups of people.

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Mr Walker
9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

While your analysis is to superficial for my tastes,  I commend you for referencing this in the first place and I agree whole heartedly that there is a lot of truth in fiction. 
 

These works are masterpieces and they are mean to stimulate discussion. 
 

 

I dint really give an analysis You could write thousands of words on that. ijust explained how  the perceptions of authors  influence the books  they write  This is also true for the bible.

 Want to understand a book? You MUST understand the writer his/her background, culture, values and beliefs, even if it is a fictional book. 

Coral Island is indeed a masterpiece like Treasure Island

Ie by my criteria it moves people and stays in their memories for life.and remains current centuries later   Lord of the flies IMO slightly less so, but it is interesting and controversial and has stood the test of time. 

For me the comparison is something like that between Dracula by Stoker and Twilight; or Frankenstein by Shelly, and The Incredible Hulk..   

Edited by Mr Walker

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