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ExpandMyMind

Bolton: Trump tied Ukraine aid to Biden

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Former national security adviser John Bolton reportedly claims in his as yet unpublished memoir that President Trump sought to tie hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to Ukraine to his requests for the country's leaders to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden.

Multiple sources familiar with Bolton's book told The New York Times that he writes that President Trump personally told him that $391 million in aid to Ukraine should be frozen until Ukrainian officials announced the investigations, including one into the Democratic National Committee.

The book, which does not have a publication date as of yet, has been submitted to the White House for review. White House officials did not immediately return a request for comment from The Hill on the report.

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/480014-bolton-book-alleges-trump-tied-ukraine-aid-freeze-to-biden

Well there goes the entirety of Trump's legal defence. It's also getting mighty difficult for Republicans to continue refusing to allow witnesses in the trial, which was already blatantly corrupt.

It also makes Schiff and Pelosi look like masterminds for holding back on sending the articles of impeachment. If they hadn't done so, the Republicans would have already ended the trial and this stuff would be coming out after they had protected Trump from removal.

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Robotic Jew

I wish this would matter or make a difference. But it won't. We are so broken and damaged as a country that there is nothing that would convince the other side that something wrong was done here. I did notice more and more right wing pundits moving towards the "it was wrong but not impeachable" argument. When they "acquit" him it's going to set so many precedents that are not good for anyone but corrupt politicians.

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preacherman76

And yet, as Been pointed out a million times, reality has the final say on this. It just didn’t play out that way. Not at all. 
 

Reality is Trumps legal defense. It just didn’t happen that way. Money was released, with no investigation. Why is this so difficult to understand?

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joc
42 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/480014-bolton-book-alleges-trump-tied-ukraine-aid-freeze-to-biden

Well there goes the entirety of Trump's legal defence. It's also getting mighty difficult for Republicans to continue refusing to allow witnesses in the trial, which was already blatantly corrupt.

It also makes Schiff and Pelosi look like masterminds for holding back on sending the articles of impeachment. If they hadn't done so, the Republicans would have already ended the trial and this stuff would be coming out after they had protected Trump from removal.

He's just trying to sell a book.   Oh, weren't you guys on the left all about what a bad egg Bolton was...but now he's dishing on Trump so he is kind of a left nut hero.

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RoofGardener
20 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/480014-bolton-book-alleges-trump-tied-ukraine-aid-freeze-to-biden

Well there goes the entirety of Trump's legal defence. It's also getting mighty difficult for Republicans to continue refusing to allow witnesses in the trial, which was already blatantly corrupt.

It also makes Schiff and Pelosi look like masterminds for holding back on sending the articles of impeachment. If they hadn't done so, the Republicans would have already ended the trial and this stuff would be coming out after they had protected Trump from removal.

MOST interesting. However, I think we should wait for the book to come out before we get TOO excited ? It all comes down to how Bolton phrased this accusation. If Trump told him that aid SHOULD be frozen (as in... "I personally think that the aid should be frozen, but I can't really force it to happen. Oh.. and the Mexicans should pay for it") as opposed to "I am going to freeze the aide"), then that puts a different light on it. 

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kartikg

Why is asking for an investigation into corruption such an big issue? As far as I know usa gives the right to anybody to report any forms of corruption its citizens are involved. 

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rashore

Thread cleaned. Members here are reminded to comment in a civil and constructive manner please.

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OverSword
2 hours ago, kartikg said:

Why is asking for an investigation into corruption such an big issue? As far as I know usa gives the right to anybody to report any forms of corruption its citizens are involved. 

The reason is because Trump asked a foreign government to investigate his main rival in the upcoming election.  In effect inviting a foreign power to influence a presidential election.  I think after the whole Russia gate farce he would have been more careful.  Of course the common response to that is "What's wrong with investigating corruption?" The answer is the timing.  The Biden corruption took place in 2014, five years later after Biden has declared his run for the presidential race trump suddenly gains interest in this. This seems too much for some people to grasp.  Detach yourself from it emotionally and it's clear Trumps action is at the very least wrong.  If it's determined to also be illegal then it will have to be decided it it rises to the level of a high crime at which point he will be removed from office.

Edited by OverSword
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kartikg
30 minutes ago, OverSword said:

The reason is because Trump asked a foreign government to investigate his main rival in the upcoming election.  In effect inviting a foreign power to influence a presidential election.  I think after the whole Russia gate farce he would have been more careful.  Of course the common response to that is "What's wrong with investigating corruption?" The answer is the timing.  The Biden corruption took place in 2014, five years later after Biden has declared his run for the presidential race trump suddenly gains interest in this. This seems too much for some people to grasp.  Detach yourself from it emotionally and it's clear Trumps action is at the very least wrong.  If it's determined to also be illegal then it will have to be decided it it rises to the level of a high crime at which point he will be removed from office.

Who in usa is supposed to alert for corruption? Is there a time limitation? If a president somehow came to know about corruption which happened in 2014 but if it comes to his knowledge now what should he do? Assuming he did not ask for enquiry wouldn't he be held liable for not acting on the information that usa citizen was involved in corruption? 

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Robotic Jew
1 minute ago, kartikg said:

Who in usa is supposed to alert for corruption? Is there a time limitation? If a president somehow came to know about corruption which happened in 2014 but if it comes to his knowledge now what should he do? Assuming he did not ask for enquiry wouldn't he be held liable for not acting on the information that usa citizen was involved in corruption? 

We have an ENTIRE department in the government dedicated to investigating these things. None of which would have had rudy running around in ukraine trying to get people fired and get the investigation started on the down low. if trump was REALLY concerned he would have followed the proper protocols. 

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ExpandMyMind
6 minutes ago, kartikg said:

Who in usa is supposed to alert for corruption? Is there a time limitation? If a president somehow came to know about corruption which happened in 2014 but if it comes to his knowledge now what should he do? Assuming he did not ask for enquiry wouldn't he be held liable for not acting on the information that usa citizen was involved in corruption? 

It had nothing to do with exposing Biden corruption. They weren't even asking for an investigation, merely the announcement of one so that they could use it to turn Biden into Hillary 2.0.

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OverSword
3 minutes ago, kartikg said:

Who in usa is supposed to alert for corruption? Is there a time limitation? If a president somehow came to know about corruption which happened in 2014 but if it comes to his knowledge now what should he do? Assuming he did not ask for enquiry wouldn't he be held liable for not acting on the information that usa citizen was involved in corruption? 

We all knew it in 2014 when Biden admitted to withholding funds until a man investigating corruption of the company Hunter worked for was fired.  If I knew it and the news channels knew it then bet your ass trump knew it too. So he waited until Biden was a political threat to him and then asked a foreign country for an investigation which would impact an American election. 

It's been six years, why not wait seven and get him after the re-election?  You know why.  If you can't admit this, if you can't see the moral grey area stepped in by the president, if you don't understand the importance of acting in an ethical manner despite what the other guy is doing then I can't explain it to your satisfaction.

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kartikg
11 minutes ago, OverSword said:

We all knew it in 2014 when Biden admitted to withholding funds until a man investigating corruption of the company Hunter worked for was fired.  If I knew it and the news channels knew it then bet your ass trump knew it too. So he waited until Biden was a political threat to him and then asked a foreign country for an investigation which would impact an American election. 

It's been six years, why not wait seven and get him after the re-election?  You know why.  If you can't admit this, if you can't see the moral grey area stepped in by the president, if you don't understand the importance of acting in an ethical manner despite what the other guy is doing then I can't explain it to your satisfaction.

I get it, I get it that he could have done it for political gain but most people do things for their own gains, there is a Grey area but I don't see it as a crime. During election candidates dig out dirt on each other and so do their supporters, last election some tape came about trump too. Asking some one to investigate for corruption should not be something that one should be impeached of. 

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OverSword
3 minutes ago, kartikg said:

there is a Grey area but I don't see it as a crime.

But inviting a foreign government to influence an American election is a crime, and trump has done just that.  What needs to be determined is if this qualifies as a high crime which would see him removed.  We can not say if it is or is not it's up to them to decide it during the impeachment trial.  

Edited by OverSword
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kartikg
Just now, OverSword said:

But inviting a foreign government to influence an American election is a crime, and trump has done just that.  What needs to be determined is if this qualifies as a high crime which would see him removed.  We can not say if it is or is not it's up to them to decide it during the impeachment trial.  

The corruption allegedly happened in a foreign country so it seems appropriate that a foreign government was asked to investigate so does not seem to be a crime. Even us investigating agencies need to take help from foreign agencies during any investigation if need arises. 

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Reality is Trumps legal defense. It just didn’t happen that way. Money was released, with no investigation. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Money was released because the whistle blower made a public issue out of the phone call.  Several government offices, you would call deep state because they are loyal to the country and not to a president, said it would be illegal.  That is reality.

The money did not go through because of Trumps generous nature or Pompeo's concern for the Ukraine.

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OverSword
14 minutes ago, kartikg said:

The corruption allegedly happened in a foreign country so it seems appropriate that a foreign government was asked to investigate so does not seem to be a crime. Even us investigating agencies need to take help from foreign agencies during any investigation if need arises. 

I'm not disputing that.  The timing is the major issue.  Also, Trump's own justice department was not already investigating this corruption at a domestic level.  Presumably investigation would also need to take place here, subpoenaing Biden's own vice presidential records for example.  As a matter of fact that should be step one, in order to determine whether a foreign power should be consulted and brought into this affair in the first place.  I'm sorry but you are wrong about this.  Trump is being impeached and should be impeached.  As I've said he definitely did what he is being accused of it just needs to be determined if that reaches the level of High Crime, the definition of which is vague so we cannot say until the trial is over. 

Edited by OverSword
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and then
18 minutes ago, OverSword said:

But inviting a foreign government to influence an American election is a crime,

So is enriching oneself and their family with US aid.  So is attempting to take down a president through a damned COUP.  We don't hear a lot coming from the MSM about any of that though, huh?  These scum came after him and his family and everyone around him for 3 years.  They're still trying to gut him.  And his supporters are supposed to get sanctimonious over him wanting the truth to get out?  Not on your life.  They deserve to be imprisoned for what they did, at a MINIMUM.  

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Tatetopa
3 hours ago, kartikg said:

Why is asking for an investigation into corruption such an big issue?

It is not at all a big issue and should be encouraged.  What is a big issue is using the power of the Presidency of the United States for personal benefit.

You don't need to believe the MSM over this.  Listen top the President's own words in interviews.  

what did you want the Ukraine to do?

I think they should start a serious investigation into the Bidens.  NOT corruption.  The Bidens.

China should also investigate the Bidens.  Not corruption, the Bidens.

If you really want an investigation instead of cheap bad publicity for an opponent, you start an investigation.  You don't tip off the perpetrators on national TV.

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kartikg
1 minute ago, OverSword said:

I'm not disputing that.  The timing is the major issue.  Also, Trump's own justice department was not already investigating this corruption at a domestic level.  Presumably investigation would also need to take place here, subpoenaing Biden's own vice presidential records for example.  As a matter of fact that should be step one, in order to determine whether a foreign power should be consulted and brought into this affair in the first place.  I'm sorry but you are wrong about this.  Trump is being impeached and should be impeached.  As I've said he definitely did what he is being accused of it just needs to be determined if that reaches the level of High Crime, the definition of which id vague so we cannot say until the trial is over. 

Since the corruption took place in a foreign country I believe it's the right thing to do to inform them, else they have a risk of being accused as either being part of corruption or seen as weak by their own citizens that usa can do anything in their country without the government knowing anything. On personal opinion I do not feel that he should be impeached. Regarding timing issues should we ignoring or withelding any investigation of political candidates during election times? Assuming the worst case scenario that Biden is corrupt and he wins wouldn't usa get a corrupt president? 

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kartikg
3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

It is not at all a big issue and should be encouraged.  What is a big issue is using the power of the Presidency of the United States for personal benefit.

You don't need to believe the MSM over this.  Listen top the President's own words in interviews.  

what did you want the Ukraine to do?

I think they should start a serious investigation into the Bidens.  NOT corruption.  The Bidens.

China should also investigate the Bidens.  Not corruption, the Bidens.

If you really want an investigation instead of cheap bad publicity for an opponent, you start an investigation.  You don't tip off the perpetrators on national TV.

If it was not made public on national TV then the story would have been spun like #Trump secretly ordered investigation on Biden #. 

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Tatetopa
Just now, and then said:

So is enriching oneself and their family with US aid.

Sure is. Do the investigation present the data.  Send the b*****s to jail.  I will trust your team, Durham or whoever you choose, but come up with the facts not  opinions.  Put your facts where your mouth is.  Get the truth out.

 

4 minutes ago, and then said:

These scum came after him and his family and everyone around him for 3 years. 

Yes they did and a few of his associates wound up in jail, not because it is a coup or witch hunt but because they committed crimes that are defined by US law and have a punishment.  

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and then
1 minute ago, Tatetopa said:

You don't tip off the perpetrators on national TV.

Those rules apply where the perpetrators don't brag in a national televised forum about committing extortion against a country receiving aid, either.  The freakin hypocrisy just drips from you guys.  He's supposed to be some kind of perfect person while he sees corruption being flaunted in the media and he and his family being attacked on all sides.  He's fighting back and that's what's driving them nuts.  You go right ahead with your legalistic view...what kind of naive childishness does it take to expect one side to always be upright while the other can and will do ANYTHING for power?  

He did nothing that should get him removed from office and he'll be acquitted.  Those who are mortified over THIS should be in a damned coma from what Obama's people attempted to do.  Don't you GET THAT YET?

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Hammerclaw

 

 

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Tatetopa
1 minute ago, kartikg said:

If it was not made public on national TV then the story would have been spun like #Trump secretly ordered investigation on Biden #. 

That would have been fine.  That is within his power and duty.  An investigation is how we find a crime and charge somebody with it.  Saying somebody should be investigated is a cheesy, reality TV tactic to  smear and take down an opponent.

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