The Deal of the Century

[+and-then]

Trump's plan finally is set to be announced.  Thought it'd be good to discuss it as it unfolds and it becomes clear how the plan will be treated by both sides.  

First details:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-middle-east-peace-plan-includes-two-state-solution-tunnel-to-connect-west-bank-and-gaza-strip

Edited January 28, 2020 by and then

[Setton]

Interesting details. On the face it sounds promising. Then you get this gem:

Quote

As part of the plan, Israel has agreed to halt settlement construction for four years.

The plan calls for a demilitarized Palestinian state. Israel will maintain overall security,

So the Palestinians are expected to completely disarm and leave themselves defenseless against future Israeli invasion and/or occupation. 

And in return, Israel will stop building illegal settlements. But only for 4 years and those it has already stolen remain theirs. 

[+Desertrat56]

@and then I tried to find a non fox version of this story and there is nothing on it since July 2017.  Why is Fox the only one talking about this now?

 

 

[+Desertrat56]

I found this from MSN, posted an hour or more after Fox version.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-reveals-israel-palestine-peace-plan/ar-BBZpoDE

Quote

The accord also calls for a minimum four-year freeze in Israeli settlement construction, though it would allow Israel to maintain control over most of the illegal settlements it has already built.

Although the outline makes several concessions to Palestine, it does ask them to cross what has previously been described as a red line by asking them to accept the previously constructed West Bank settlements as Israeli territory.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Desertrat56

[+Desertrat56]

Here's the Israel Times version:  https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/trump-peace-plan/

"Trump Unveils plans for 'realistic 2-state' deal. 'undivided' iraeli Jerusalem."   I find the single quotes in the headline interesting.

 

[+and-then]

28 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

@and then I tried to find a non fox version of this story and there is nothing on it since July 2017.  Why is Fox the only one talking about this now?

 

 

Not sure but I've seen multiple mentions of the story in Israeli press sources.  It could be that the MSM doesn't want to let anything else get in the way of their Senate trial coverage.  Not being nasty here, just telling the truth.  They already had one huge story break at the same time they were trying to make Bolton's leak a major storyline.

[+and-then]

22 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Here's the Israel Times version:  https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/trump-peace-plan/

"Trump Unveils plans for 'realistic 2-state' deal. 'undivided' iraeli Jerusalem."   I find the single quotes in the headline interesting.

 

First, a little background on the Israeli media.  They are vastly, predominantly Left leaning.  Just so you're aware of differences you'll note in their reportage.  Many Jews in Israel don't support Netanyahu and will be against anything that might benefit him or his party.  Kind of like it is here with Trump.  That said, the one thing that tends to unify Israelis is the idea of Jerusalem as their undivided capitol.  The Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their territory and that's a sticking point that I don't see this plan or any other plan overcoming before it is settled with "politics by other means" as Clausewitz once opined.  His exact quote was WAR IS A MERE CONTINUATION OF POLICY BY OTHER MEANS

I doubt that this deal will be embraced by Palestinians or even by all Israelis but there may be enough benefit to all that it isn't totally rejected immediately.  After all, since Iran has become such a threat to the Sunni Arab nations in the Gulf, they've warmed up to Israel as a partner that can defend them.  

Not sure why my text is bolded  

[+Desertrat56]

8 minutes ago, and then said:

First, a little background on the Israeli media.  They are vastly, predominantly Left leaning.  Just so you're aware of differences you'll note in their reportage.  Many Jews in Israel don't support Netanyahu and will be against anything that might benefit him or his party.  Kind of like it is here with Trump.  That said, the one thing that tends to unify Israelis is the idea of Jerusalem as their undivided capitol.  The Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their territory and that's a sticking point that I don't see this plan or any other plan overcoming before it is settled with "politics by other means" as Clausewitz once opined.  His exact quote was WAR IS A MERE CONTINUATION OF POLICY BY OTHER MEANS

I doubt that this deal will be embraced by Palestinians or even by all Israelis but there may be enough benefit to all that it isn't totally rejected immediately.  After all, since Iran has become such a threat to the Sunni Arab nations in the Gulf, they've warmed up to Israel as a partner that can defend them.  

Not sure why my text is bolded  

There are some bugs with some of the options in the text options.  As for the Israeli's and Palestinians, I actually understand the Palestinians view more easily than the Israeli's.  The Palestinians had that territory and were a sovereign state until after WW2.   My opinion is that the Europeans and UK children need to get out of the middle east and leave them alone to figure things out.  Once all of the countries are ready to join the rest of the world then we can see how it plays out.  I know there is too much entrenchment for the not middle easterners to just pack up and leave now. but I do not support increasing any activity by us in that area.  Oil is the big lie about why outsiders are interfering there, just like rubber was the big lie about why we were in viet nam. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Desertrat56

[odas]

47 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I found this from MSN, posted an hour or more after Fox version.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-reveals-israel-palestine-peace-plan/ar-BBZpoDE

One sided plan. Israel gets all, Palestinians nothing or at the very best a chance to be slaves to Israel.

Donny, you solved the problem!

[acidhead]

 

[toast]

OT: I`m getting sick on the "the left", "left leaning", "lefties"-blahblahblah meanwhile. It seems that a big number of US people cannot live without a concept of an enemy in general.

[acidhead]

You can download the PDF file here:

180+ pages

https://www.whitehouse.gov/peacetoprosperity/

The White House is pleased to share President Trump’s Vision for a comprehensive peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.

This Vision is the most realistic solution to a problem that has plagued the region for far too long.

It creates a path to prosperity, security, and dignity for all involved. If the parties can agree on this framework as a basis for negotiations, the potential for both the Israelis and the Palestinians and the region is unlimited.

Edited January 28, 2020 by acidhead

[+and-then]

20 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

The Palestinians had that territory and were a sovereign state until after WW2

Wait, you think the Arab Muslims living in Palestine had their own state in the past?  That's not accurate.  They were on the land, yes, but there has never been a state for Palestine - except Israel, that is.  In fact Jews prior to WWII who lived in that area were referred to as "Palestinians". 

Here's the tentative map of the new state of Palestine:

[acidhead]

 

[toast]

8 minutes ago, acidhead said:

 

 

[Helen of Annoy]

50 minutes ago, odas said:

One sided plan. Israel gets all, Palestinians nothing or at the very best a chance to be slaves to Israel.

Donny, you solved the problem!

It's not a peace plan, it is shifting the blame plan. Meant to be rejected by the Palestinians, just so that it's 'proven' they won't cooperate and it's all their fault. 

The only upside is that it's so obviously unacceptable it makes the authors look... say, irrational, not to use the exact adjective. 

[acidhead]

5 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It's not a peace plan, it is shifting the blame plan. Meant to be rejected by the Palestinians, just so that it's 'proven' they won't cooperate and it's all their fault. 

The only upside is that it's so obviously unacceptable it makes the authors look... say, irrational, not to use the exact adjective. 

Just curious... whats your peace plan? 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

11 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It's not a peace plan, it is shifting the blame plan. Meant to be rejected by the Palestinians, just so that it's 'proven' they won't cooperate and it's all their fault. 

The only upside is that it's so obviously unacceptable it makes the authors look... say, irrational, not to use the exact adjective. 

I agree. But it's also more than that. It's, as the NY Times described it: a political document by a president in the middle of an impeachment trial working in tandem with a prime minister under criminal indictment and about to face his third election in the span of a year.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/world/middleeast/peace-plan.html

[Helen of Annoy]

11 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Just curious... whats your peace plan? 

Time travel. 

On a less sarcastic note, no peace plan will work until Israeli government is actually interested in peace instead of cleansing the territory. 

It's interesting how poor Trump thought this (embarrassingly shameless for sane people) 'plan' will work for him the way it will for Netanyahu.    .  

[Helen of Annoy]

2 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I agree. But it's also more than that. It's, as the NY Times described it: a political document by a president in the middle of an impeachment trial working in tandem with a prime minister under criminal indictment and about to face his third election in the span of a year.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/world/middleeast/peace-plan.html

Bibi wants legal fig leaf in form of 'peace plan' rejected by Palestinians, Donnie wants that nasty impeachment out of focus. Not to mention he still can't get over the fact that he wasn't given a Nobel.  

[Kittens Are Jerks]

4 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Bibi wants legal fig leaf in form of 'peace plan' rejected by Palestinians, Donnie wants that nasty impeachment out of focus. Not to mention he still can't get over the fact that he wasn't given a Nobel.  

Donnie also needs votes from conservative Jews and Evangelical Christians.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, and then said:

Wait, you think the Arab Muslims living in Palestine had their own state in the past?  That's not accurate.  They were on the land, yes, but there has never been a state for Palestine - except Israel, that is.  In fact Jews prior to WWII who lived in that area were referred to as "Palestinians". 

Here's the tentative map of the new state of Palestine:

So demilitarised, defenceless and almost indefensible in the event of further Israeli aggression. 

 

Yeah, nothing suspicious about this plan... Just get the Palestinians to dispose of the fighters amongst them then get back to oppressing them once they're defenseless. 

[acidhead]

6 minutes ago, Setton said:

So demilitarised, defenceless and almost indefensible in the event of further Israeli aggression. 

 

Yeah, nothing suspicious about this plan... Just get the Palestinians to dispose of the fighters amongst them then get back to oppressing them once they're defenseless. 

Just curious... whats your peace plan? 

[acidhead]

1 hour ago, odas said:

One sided plan. Israel gets all, Palestinians nothing or at the very best a chance to be slaves to Israel.

Donny, you solved the problem!

Curious... what's your peace plan?

[acidhead]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

There are some bugs with some of the options in the text options.  As for the Israeli's and Palestinians, I actually understand the Palestinians view more easily than the Israeli's.  The Palestinians had that territory and were a sovereign state until after WW2.   My opinion is that the Europeans and UK children need to get out of the middle east and leave them alone to figure things out.  Once all of the countries are ready to join the rest of the world then we can see how it plays out.  I know there is too much entrenchment for the not middle easterners to just pack up and leave now. but I do not support increasing any activity by us in that area.  Oil is the big lie about why outsiders are interfering there, just like rubber was the big lie about why we were in viet nam. 

Curious... what's your peace plan?