bee Posted April 13, 2020 #651 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, stevewinn said: Somehow patient zero, in York then infected thousands around the country in a matter of 30 days. no chance. exactly and @Ozymandias you ask... why wasn't the NHS inundated and put into crisis at the end of last year if people were getting it then - (paraphrasing what you have said in other posts..) well obviously it's going to take a few weeks for the numbers to build up as the virus spread - Edited April 13, 2020 by bee 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted April 13, 2020 #652 Share Posted April 13, 2020 17 hours ago, WanderingFool0 said: Well, just speculating, but I think there are some good reasons why china might kept it secret and still are as far as the number of deaths. I think in the beginning, when the doctor first warned about this illness and was censored by the Chinese government, that they thought they had it under control. By the time it flared up and the severely ill and dying started flooding and overwhelming the system, it was too late. At that point, still needing to maintain the illusion of control and strength, they suppressed the information going out. Also, at that point since they were already infected and their whole economy was going to tank they didn't want to be the only ones, so they let it spread. Also, behind that curtain of censorship, I do think they may have actually used some zombie apocalypse tactics on some of the infected; ie executing and incinerating them in an attempt to quell the spread and burn out the infection quickly. And because of that, they may never reveal the real numbers and even if they did they may not reflect the true mortality rate of the disease either way. I only saw it once and can't remember where - but I saw a clip of China in the affected areas when they were enforcing the strict Lockdown and there was an official with a big net on the end of a stick - like a giant version of a kid's fishing net - and they were actually catching people by putting it over their heads / top of body... and then bundling them into a van.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted April 13, 2020 #653 Share Posted April 13, 2020 9 hours ago, Kismit said: What were finding out is that lockdown is making it much easier for the Police to catch the criminals. Facebook is awash with the local drug houses being raided and cctv footage of burglaries are being reported as solved the next day. I don’t think crime is up I think it’s just easier to see and let's spare a thought for all the people having affairs - they must be pining for their secret lovers... (I jest... but it's probably true) 9 hours ago, Kismit said: edit: side note, I have recently been trying to find The Goodies online to keep me entertained during lock down. Not gonna lie the loss of Tim Brooke Taylor has broken me a little inside. I just watched this interview with The Goodies stars, Tim, Graeme and Bill... from 2018 and there's a Box Set out that you might be able to get - of all the shows... there's an outpouring of affection for Tim Brooke-Taylor and all of them in the comments on YouTube of any clip of The Goodies... At some point Tim says how letters addressed to 'No Fixed Abode, Cricklewood' would get to him... And in another bit how they were a bit miffed that Mary Whitehouse wrote to them saying how much she liked the show... they wanted to be more edgy than that and relate how it was finally a carrot that put that right and evoked her disapproval.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter B Posted April 13, 2020 #654 Share Posted April 13, 2020 43 minutes ago, stevewinn said: I'll repeat hopefully for the final time. to help you i'll underline the key words as for some reason its not sinking in - The number of deaths so far due to cv19 (to-date) remains under 13,000. 13,000 is 0.02% of the 65million population. (though that figure will increase) hence why i said we'll have to wait till years end to see the excess deaths caused by cv19. No, haven't claimed 50,000 excess deaths due to cv19. those figures where for 2017/18 due to flu. pointing out that in that year with beast from the east excess deaths due to flu where 50,000. Deaths in late 2019 due to Cv19 would be a number of cases at which time wouldn't raise suspicion and so go undetected. coupled with no routine testing, numbers of cases would stay within the expected seasonal norm. as i said your patient zero tested positive on 31st Jan, was here in the UK on the 6th January (who was here before him) you think it outlandish that in my opinion the virus was here before the 31st Jan. late Nov/Dec. i think it outlandish that you think case 1 of 1 was caught, and diagnosed. what's the odds on that, hundreds, thousands of Chinese nationals had visited the UK in December. all coming from infected China. Somehow patient zero, in York then infected thousands around the country in a matter of 30 days. no chance. Sorry, could you please show where Ozymandias said that? Given the large number of cases in the UK, doesn't it make sense that many people brought the virus into the UK from a variety of locations - not just China but Italy and Spain as well - in the weeks after 6 January and before strict border controls were implemented? Also, it doesn't make sense to me that the virus was in the UK in large numbers in November last year. If it had been, with no controls in place, why did the number of cases and deaths initially trail so far behind Italy and Spain in February and March? As this article points out, people were aware that the UK was a few weeks behind Italy and Spain: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/the-uks-coronavirus-problem-is-getting-worse/12143908 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter B Posted April 13, 2020 #655 Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, bee said: and let's spare a thought for all the people having affairs - they must be pining for their secret lovers... (I jest... but it's probably true) I just watched this interview with The Goodies stars, Tim, Graeme and Bill... from 2018 and there's a Box Set out that you might be able to get - of all the shows... there's an outpouring of affection for Tim Brooke-Taylor and all of them in the comments on YouTube of any clip of The Goodies... At some point Tim says how letters addressed to 'No Fixed Abode, Cricklewood' would get to him... And in another bit how they were a bit miffed that Mary Whitehouse wrote to them saying how much she liked the show... they wanted to be more edgy than that and relate how it was finally a carrot that put that right and evoked her disapproval.. Sadly, I understand that not all of their shows have been preserved. But I have a couple of DVDs of their shows, which I've shown my kids...my boys were in tears of laughter. The Goodies were almost compulsory viewing at 6pm on weeknights in the late 1970s and early 1980s in Australia. Many happy memories of the Pirate Post Office, Eckythump, The Giant Cod, Music Master and many other episodes. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted April 13, 2020 #656 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said: "Troops to drive Ambulances!" is the latest announcement from the Ministry of Drama, then. Obviously still part of the campaign to persuade us all that the NHS is so overwhelmed with rushing about thousands of Coronavictims every single day. This despite an interesting story that was reported in no less reputable a source than the Financial Times [they demand a subscription to read it, so sorry I can't supply a link] that emergency admissions to hospitals has actually seen a dramatic decline during the Coronacrisis, with some emergency wards no more than 50% full when ordinarily they expect to be operating at 90% capacity. The reasons for this are, (a), that possibility the Coronadrama has been incredibly overhyped; and, more regrettably, that people who may well have quite legitimate call for emergency admission to hospital are not doing so due to the propaganda that "you must not bother the NHS"; they feel that if they did call an ambulance, they'd say "Is it Corona? No? It's just a suspected heart attack? Sorry then, not interested. Try taking an aspirin. It's Corona only around here" , which, obviously, would not be the case, but that is no doubt what people have been led to think. So the number of deaths continues as usual, and the Government, with its policy of "if anyone dies of everything label it as Corona", can add one more to the statistics that they gleefully regale us with every day. One day perhaps people will see through this scam. A lot of the empty bed space is down to operations being cancelled, to increase capacity / resources for the expected cv19 cases. to date capacity in the NHS hasn't been exceeded and as yet the extra capacity in nightingale hospitals is not needed. but these could come into play when restrictions are lifted and the second more deadly wave of the virus strikes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 13, 2020 #657 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) "There are currently 450 military personnel helping to distribute PPE for NHS England. They are based at distribution centres across the country. UK-wide, the military has helped to deliver over 600 million PPE products, including masks, aprons, alcohol hand rub, and gloves. Ambulance Support "In Southern England, 80 personnel drawn from each of the Armed Services have been mobilised to support the South Central Ambulance Service’s frontline response to COVID-19. Their roles will include the manning of emergency response cars, driving larger ambulances and providing support at emergency response centres to take calls from those in need. "Alongside this, in Wales, 60 British Army personnel have been mobilised to support the Welsh Ambulance Service NHS Trust’s frontline response to COVID-19. Their roles will include assisting paramedics with non-clinical tasks." HM Gov UK COVID Support Force: Link "Armed forces to support ambulance staff": BBC Edited April 13, 2020 by Eldorado 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 13, 2020 #658 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Ambulances create traffic jams outside Moscow hospitals as Covid-19 patients keep coming (VIDEO) RT News: Link 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandias Posted April 13, 2020 #659 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, stevewinn said: I'll repeat hopefully for the final time. to help you i'll underline the key words as for some reason its not sinking in - The number of deaths so far due to cv19 (to-date) remains under 13,000. 13,000 is 0.02% of the 65million population. (though that figure will increase) hence why i said we'll have to wait till years end to see the excess deaths caused by cv19. The reason I harp on this is that elsewhere you claimed two weeks ago that the annual death rate has not increased despite lacking the data to back it up. We don't know the total number of deaths for the last two critical weeks - the data has not been officially released yet. Way more than 13,000 people have died in total than the 13,000 you quote for deaths due to Covid-19. Quote No, haven't claimed 50,000 excess deaths due to cv19. those figures where for 2017/18 due to flu. pointing out that in that year with beast from the east excess deaths due to flu where 50,000. Deaths in late 2019 due to Cv19 would be a number of cases at which time wouldn't raise suspicion and so go undetected. coupled with no routine testing, numbers of cases would stay within the expected seasonal norm. Sorry about that! You are right. However, there is absolutely no evidence that the excess deaths from last winter had anything to do with coronavirus. Quote as i said your patient zero tested positive on 31st Jan, was here in the UK on the 6th January (who was here before him) you think it outlandish that in my opinion the virus was here before the 31st Jan. late Nov/Dec. i think it outlandish that you think case 1 of 1 was caught, and diagnosed. what's the odds on that, hundreds, thousands of Chinese nationals had visited the UK in December. all coming from infected China. At the end of January your government had identified 2000 people who had entered the UK from Wuhan in the previous weeks and had begun tracking them down and testing those who exhibited symptoms. By 27 January they had tested 73 people in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They found the so-called 'patient zero' in York on 31 January and had tested 326 more by 3 February. Despite their concentrated efforts to target this high risk group of people they had only found 7 more positive cases in the next two weeks!! And that despite looking very hard in the right places!! By mid-February only 9 cases had been identified. The problem about the speed of the spread seems to lie in those early asymptotic cases that were not tested because it was thought then that they were not shedding the virus when in fact they could have been, and most likely were. Quote Somehow patient zero, in York then infected thousands around the country in a matter of 30 days. no chance. Completely incorrect. The first confirmed case of Covid-19 in York occurred on 31 January. A month later, by the end of February, there were only 36 cases identified in the UK, not thousands. You are grossly exaggerating. Edited April 13, 2020 by Ozymandias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 13, 2020 #660 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Spain eases restrictions BBC: Link Italy death rate declines At the Irish Times: Link 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted April 13, 2020 #661 Share Posted April 13, 2020 4 hours ago, bee said: I only saw it once and can't remember where - but I saw a clip of China in the affected areas when they were enforcing the strict Lockdown and there was an official with a big net on the end of a stick - like a giant version of a kid's fishing net - and they were actually catching people by putting it over their heads / top of body... and then bundling them into a van.... I don't think that was the news you were watching.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted April 13, 2020 #662 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Ozymandias said: The reason I harp on this is that elsewhere you claimed two weeks ago that the annual death rate has not increased despite lacking the data to back it up. We don't know the total number of deaths for the last two critical weeks - the data has not been officially released yet. Way more than 13,000 people have died in total than the 13,000 you quote for deaths due to Covid-19. Sorry about that! You are right. However, there is absolutely no evidence that the excess deaths from last winter had anything to do with coronavirus. At the end of January your government had identified 2000 people who had entered the UK from Wuhan in the previous weeks and had begun tracking them down and testing those of them who exhibited symptoms. By 27 January they had tested 73 people in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They found the so-called 'patient zero' in York on 31 January and had tested 326 more by 3 February. Despite their concentrated efforts to target this high risk group of people they had only found 7 more positive cases in the next two weeks. By mid-February only 9 cases had been identified. The problem about the speed of the spread seems to lie in those early asymptotic cases that were not tested because it was thought then that they were not shedding the virus when in fact they could have been, and most likely were. Completely incorrect. The first confirmed case of Covid-19 in York occurred on 31 January. A month later, by the end of February, there were only 36 cases identified in the UK, not thousands. You are grossly exaggerating. Previously a few pages back we were talking about the weekly death rates. That's why we where quoting weekly figures from present and previous years. Annual death rate for this year will tell its own story. (Keep us posted throughout the year on the weekly figures) I haven't tried to link excess deaths in Nov/Dec to cv19. My point is deaths due to cv19 wouldve been missed. As they'd fall under normal expected deaths and nothing outside the seasonal norm. And nothing in the figures show anything untoward. If it wasn't for the Chinese nationals in York and if we where to go by the weekly or monthly figures nothing would've been untoward until late Feb early March. No run on ICUs, demographic of deaths all within the expected range. You seriously think the Govt tracked down patient zero. They identified and looked for and found all 2,000. And tested them. And happen to fall upon patient zero. And then the virus spread. Not a fecking chance. Are we also to believe that within 21 days the virus had spread to 21countries and 10,000 cases. To accept all this first you have to accept the Chinese version of events (dates) and I personally don't. If you believe it took 21days to spread to 21 countries. Then I believe this event was happening in China in late November. And infected people where arriving in the UK as early as the end of Nov into Dec. You only have to look at how the virus spread in the UK. Even the Italians are looking into the virus arriving there in Nov/Dec 2019. Edited April 13, 2020 by stevewinn 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 13, 2020 #663 Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 14, 2020 #664 Share Posted April 14, 2020 92 care homes suffer coronavirus outbreaks in just 24 hours At the Liverpool Echo: Link Sky News: Link 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted April 14, 2020 #665 Share Posted April 14, 2020 20 hours ago, Eldorado said: Spain eases restrictions BBC: Link Italy death rate declines At the Irish Times: Link Russia's cases are going up fast. https://abc7ny.com/russias-coronavirus-cases-expected-to-soar-/6099994/?fbclid=IwAR36VVArjB0zYk6jTXYuIpLLeX51Dm1vRb4PQzl6Klj9-_GirLzvMZPQE-c 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandias Posted April 14, 2020 #666 Share Posted April 14, 2020 FYI, the latest Office of National Statistics figures re weekly total deaths in England & Wales. I have inserted this mornings figure for Week 14 (in bold): 2020 (2019) 5yr Average Week 1 (ending Friday, 3 Jan) - 12,254 (10,955) [12,175] Week 2 (ending Friday, 10 Jan) - 14,058 (12,609) [13,822] Week 3 (ending Friday, 17 Jan) - 12,990 (11,860) [13,216] Week 5 (ending Friday, 32 Jan) - 11,612 (11,297) [12,760] Week 6 (ending Friday, 7 Feb) - 10,986 (11,660) [11,925] Week 7 (ending Friday, 14 Feb) - 10,944 (11,824) [11,627] Week 8 (ending Friday, 21 Feb) - 10,841 (11,295) [11,548] Week 9 (ending Friday, 28 Feb) - 10,816 (11,044) [11,183] Week 10 (ending Friday, 6 Mar) - 10,895 (10,898) [11,498] Week 11 (ending Friday, 13 Mar) - 11,019 (10,567) [11,205] 9 Covid deaths (NHS) Week 12 (ending Friday, 20 Mar) - 10,645 (10,402) [10,573] 166 Covid deaths (NHS) Week 13 (ending Friday, 27 Mar) - 11,141 ( 9,867) [10,130] 582 Covid deaths (NHS) Week 14 (ending Friday, 3 Apr) - 16,387 (10,126) [10,305] 2846 Covid deaths (NHS) Week 15 (ending Friday, 10 Apr) - ? (10,291) [ ? ] 5353 Covid deaths (NHS) Week 16 (ending Friday, 17 Apr) - ? ( 9,025) [ ? ] The bolded figure of 16,387 deaths is the latest measure of total deaths in Week 14 and is 59% higher than the 5Year Average for Week 14. The corresponding NHS number of reported Covid-19 related deaths, 2846, is now shown to be quite an underestimate. It also represents a 62% increase on the same week last year (2019). And it clearly indicates that 62% of those who died of respiratory disease were victims of Covid-19. Furthermore, the total number who died from respiratory disease in Week 14 this year was 5581 compared to only 1412 last year, an increase of 295%!! In Week 14 last year all respiratory disease related deaths totalled 1412. This year it is 5581 for the same week. 4 times greater. Looking at the breakdown of deaths for Week 14 in age groups it clearly shows the following: Age Group 2019 Deaths 2020 Deaths % Increase 45 - 64 1232 1860 51% 65 - 74 1614 2734 69% 75 - 84 2937 5005 70% 85 + 3993 6428 61% So this is not comparable to a flu epidemic and nothing like this swept through the UK population late last year or earlier this year. These figures entirely agree with the perceived spread of a worldwide pandemic as it moved out from its original epicentre in Wuhan, Hubei, China. It has not been in the UK since last November and the normal excess deaths that occurred last winter in the UK were entirely due to the usual seasonal flu that takes its toll on the elderly every winter. The difference in the effects of the usual flu on the elderly population and the effects of Covid-19 are obvious and account for the current unprecedented onslaught on our health services and hospitals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 14, 2020 #667 Share Posted April 14, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted April 14, 2020 #668 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Is the curve beginning to flatten yet? Some say it has started in the last four days, for 11 weeks nothing was wrong with how the figures where counted. until now. Now we start to see hope, a flattening and all of a sudden the media want 15% more deaths added to the total. Surely for us to know if we've turned a corner we have to stick to the the same methodology. We have 12,000 deaths the media want 20,000. ****s rhymes with bat's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandias Posted April 14, 2020 #669 Share Posted April 14, 2020 1 hour ago, stevewinn said: Is the curve beginning to flatten yet? Some say it has started in the last four days, for 11 weeks nothing was wrong with how the figures where counted. until now. Now we start to see hope, a flattening and all of a sudden the media want 15% more deaths added to the total. Surely for us to know if we've turned a corner we have to stick to the the same methodology. We have 12,000 deaths the media want 20,000. ****s rhymes with bat's. Your comment above (bolded) is not only untrue but downright ludicrous. The Office of National Statistics (ONS) figure issued this morning show that the number of deaths attributed to coronavirus is actually 15% higher than that reported by the NHS. Why you think the media would want there to be 15% more deaths than there already are in these terrible weeks? That is what you imply. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 15, 2020 #670 Share Posted April 15, 2020 "Eleven residents at a Renfrewshire care home have died from suspected coronavirus in the past two weeks. "A further 13 residents at Elderslie Residential and Nursing Care Home in Paisley are also displaying symptoms consistent with Covid-19." STV: Link 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldorado Posted April 15, 2020 #671 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Another 761... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted April 15, 2020 #672 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) On 4/14/2020 at 2:47 AM, Eldorado said: 92 care homes suffer coronavirus outbreaks in just 24 hours At the Liverpool Echo: Link Sky News: Link My uncle is one. Dead. Had breathing problems. Phoned 999 the paramedics turned up and wouldn't take him the hospital. died a day later. Death certificate includes coronavirus. Thats two now in our extended family. First my Auntie. Funeral on monday. No funeral cars. Only 10 people allowed. You cant touch the chairs/seats in the crem. Service is 10 minutes max. My uncles funeral 1st may. Same dance wont be going because of the ten person limit. My Uncles family, my Aunt, and cousins are fuming, as only one person was allowed in the care home at a time. so when it didn't look good his wife, daughter and son took it in turns to be at his bedside. no mention of it being coronavirus, so they've been in direct contact - and then returned home to their own families. and the first mention of him having coronavirus is on the death certificate. Edited April 15, 2020 by stevewinn to add some more information 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.A.T.1961 Posted April 15, 2020 #673 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Labour calls for lockdown exit strategy this week. The government is expected to announce on Thursday that social distancing measures will continue. Sir Keir said Labour would back such a move but to maintain public trust "there needs to be transparency". In an interview with BBC Breakfast, however, Sir Keir said it would be "wrong" to put a time on when schools should reopen. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52287920 It looks like Labour wants the government to commit early to an exit strategy but will not come off the fence themselves ? Do we need an exit strategy published in the next few days or is it better to wait for the last possible moment and use the latest data to formulate the exit plan? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted April 15, 2020 #674 Share Posted April 15, 2020 48 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said: Labour calls for lockdown exit strategy this week. The government is expected to announce on Thursday that social distancing measures will continue. Sir Keir said Labour would back such a move but to maintain public trust "there needs to be transparency". In an interview with BBC Breakfast, however, Sir Keir said it would be "wrong" to put a time on when schools should reopen. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52287920 It looks like Labour wants the government to commit early to an exit strategy but will not come off the fence themselves ? Do we need an exit strategy published in the next few days or is it better to wait for the last possible moment and use the latest data to formulate the exit plan? Labour just needs to shut up for a moment. don't you agree? The Tory Govt is taking advice off the health experts, If Labour was the govt they'd be receiving the same advice off the same health experts. - and we all know the last people we'd want in charge in any crisis is the Labour Party. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.A.T.1961 Posted April 15, 2020 #675 Share Posted April 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, stevewinn said: Labour just needs to shut up for a moment. don't you agree? The Tory Govt is taking advice off the health experts, If Labour was the govt they'd be receiving the same advice off the same health experts. - and we all know the last people we'd want in charge in any crisis is the Labour Party. I think if Keir wants to be taken seriously then its not enough to demand action without saying what he would do. The Labour party had a manifesto for the last election, i don't think its unreasonable for them to have there own exit plan today if they expect one from government. Last I saw Keir refused to attend briefings with government on CV19. He wants the country to be fully informed but not himself. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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