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Festina

The Negative Confessions of Maat

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Festina
13 hours ago, Jujo-jo said:

I've looked into this, very interesting! Does anyone have a link to the full 147?

Never heard of more that forty two but I could add quite a few more....”Oh, Hail, Whomever,  I have not spun the truth to deceive” would be a biggie.  It’s probably implied in “I have not told lies” but as the times change so do men...and women and their perceptions.  

 

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Kenemet
14 hours ago, Jujo-jo said:

I've looked into this, very interesting! Does anyone have a link to the full 147?

There's only 42 negative confessions.  The Jews have 613 commandments and you can read about them at this link (also includes links for the full list): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

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jaylemurph
19 hours ago, Festina Lente said:

Not really a fan of the Hammurabi  laws but they certainly are interesting. But....

Who exactly was is Jesus? 

And why oh why is this world in the mess that it is in?

Are we any better for it all?

The answer must be NO.

So then...what now? 

Is there a point buried in that blather?

—Jaylemurph 

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Festina
Just now, jaylemurph said:

Is there a point buried in that blather?

—Jaylemurph 

Yes, religion has not made humanity better.  But it has made some people very rich and powerful and is responsible for much bloodshed. 

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kmt_sesh
18 hours ago, Kenemet said:

The most recent translation of it (1998) is by Faulkner.  The Ancient History Encyclopedia has Faulkner's list: https://www.ancient.eu/The_Negative_Confession/

I have Faulkner's excellent translation. I certainly wouldn't mind if James Allen would publish his own translation. The one and only thing that sends me to Budge is how he has the spells' hieroglyphs. I would not ever turn to him for his very old and outdated translations.

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Kenemet
4 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I have Faulkner's excellent translation. I certainly wouldn't mind if James Allen would publish his own translation. The one and only thing that sends me to Budge is how he has the spells' hieroglyphs. I would not ever turn to him for his very old and outdated translations.

I like the way that Budge translates the names... it adds a flavor to the text that you don't get with the names just spelled out.  I admit to swiping a few (and filing off the serial numbers) for an alien dragon culture.

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Piney
4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

  The Jews have 613 commandments

And how did Moses drag all those tablets down the hill? 

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Kenemet
50 minutes ago, Piney said:

And how did Moses drag all those tablets down the hill? 

Very carefully.

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BorizBadinov
6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Very carefully.

Not really, after all that he broke them...

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Alchopwn
13 hours ago, Festina Lente said:

Never heard of more that forty two but I could add quite a few more....”Oh, Hail, Whomever,  I have not spun the truth to deceive” would be a biggie.  It’s probably implied in “I have not told lies” but as the times change so do men...and women and their perceptions.  

I was just looking at the list of the sins of Maat and thinking "you know I think I broke about six of these just by playing Texas Hold 'em" for money.

Edited by Alchopwn
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RoofGardener
On 2/1/2020 at 10:45 PM, Festina Lente said:

6. “Hail, god in the form of two lions (Ruruti), who comest forth from heaven, I have not minished oblations.”

I've always worried that I may have - inadvertently -  minished some of my oblations :unsure2:

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Alchopwn
4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I've always worried that I may have - inadvertently -  minished some of my oblations :unsure2:

I know I have, unintentionally, which is why I no longer donate to the Red Cross.  If I am going to oblate, I don't want it minished!

Edited by Alchopwn
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Wepwawet

If anybody reads what the German Egyptologists say about the 42 "Negative confessions", then they will see why some people say there are more. Jan Assmann says that there are 82, with the extra 40 being for priests, though with duplication between both. These original 40 confessions are contained in "The Book of the Temple", reconstructed by German Egyptologist Joachim Friedrich Quack more than ten years ago. Quack took over the position of Jan Assmann at Heidelberg so we can be sure he knows what he is talking about. I don't have a link to a translation, or even original, only this link to a page about this book on the Heidelberg site. It's in German, but google will translate. It's not long, and unfortunately does not provide a list of these extra 40 confessions, but does at least briefly give an explanation as to why they exist, and why they predate chapter 125 of the "Book of the Dead" and the Papyri of Ani

https://www.uni-heidelberg.de/presse/ruca/ruca07-2/tempel.html

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Thanos5150
On 2/1/2020 at 8:59 PM, Kenemet said:

The most recent translation of it (1998) is by Faulkner.  The Ancient History Encyclopedia has Faulkner's list: https://www.ancient.eu/The_Negative_Confession/

That's weird. Faulkner died in 1982. 

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Hanslune
On 2/2/2020 at 3:44 PM, Kenemet said:

I like the way that Budge translates the names... it adds a flavor to the text that you don't get with the names just spelled out.  I admit to swiping a few (and filing off the serial numbers) for an alien dragon culture.

One must ask what are you doing with an alien dragon culture - forming a cult or writing something spicy or mundane?

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The Wistman
On 2/3/2020 at 9:12 AM, Wepwawet said:

If anybody reads what the German Egyptologists say about the 42 "Negative confessions", then they will see why some people say there are more. Jan Assmann says that there are 82, with the extra 40 being for priests, though with duplication between both. These original 40 confessions are contained in "The Book of the Temple", reconstructed by German Egyptologist Joachim Friedrich Quack more than ten years ago. Quack took over the position of Jan Assmann at Heidelberg so we can be sure he knows what he is talking about. I don't have a link to a translation, or even original, only this link to a page about this book on the Heidelberg site. It's in German, but google will translate. It's not long, and unfortunately does not provide a list of these extra 40 confessions, but does at least briefly give an explanation as to why they exist, and why they predate chapter 125 of the "Book of the Dead" and the Papyri of Ani

https://www.uni-heidelberg.de/presse/ruca/ruca07-2/tempel.html

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/35125141.pdf

Jan Assman's 1982 paper (tr. into English):  DEATH AND INITIATION IN THE FUNERARY RELIGION OF ANCIENT EGYPT

PDF.    From page 151:

Quote

The actual trial, figuratively formulated by the weighing of the heart against a symbol of truth, and the "negative confession" of the candidate, who must enumerate 42 sins in the presence of 42 funerary judges while swearing not to have committed them, truly belong to the fundamentals of Egyptian religion.

 

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Wepwawet
1 hour ago, The Wistman said:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/35125141.pdf

Jan Assman's 1982 paper (tr. into English):  DEATH AND INITIATION IN THE FUNERARY RELIGION OF ANCIENT EGYPT

PDF.    From page 151:

 

That's right, in normal use we only refer to the 42 negative confessions, partly, as I mentioned, because there is duplication between the priestly confessions and those that came later for all others, everybody except the king.

I said 82, and I'm not sure why I had 82 on my mind because Assmann in fact refers to a total of 80 in "The Mind of Egypt", English edition of 2002 page 161. I'm certain now it was Hornung who gave the number of 40 priestly negative confessions in addition to the usual 42, but I'll have to do some digging to find the reference.

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Kenemet
3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

That's weird. Faulkner died in 1982. 

Publishers will reissue editions with new copyright dates even after the death of the author.  It depends on what they can negotiate with whoever owns the current copyright (which is a whole nother twisty topic in itself.)

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Kenemet
2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

One must ask what are you doing with an alien dragon culture - forming a cult or writing something spicy or mundane?

Writing humor.  With a planetologist.  Our arguments over Feynman and spaghetti and whether Saturn makes a boring planetary setting are epic, but I get to boss him around when it comes to plotting and structure.

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Kenemet
27 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

That's right, in normal use we only refer to the 42 negative confessions, partly, as I mentioned, because there is duplication between the priestly confessions and those that came later for all others, everybody except the king.

I said 82, and I'm not sure why I had 82 on my mind because Assmann in fact refers to a total of 80 in "The Mind of Egypt", English edition of 2002 page 161. I'm certain now it was Hornung who gave the number of 40 priestly negative confessions in addition to the usual 42, but I'll have to do some digging to find the reference.

Please do.  I'm intrigued.

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The Wistman

So, for everybody to know, we're talking about Spell 125 from the Book of the Dead (BD), specifically, from the Papyrus of Ani.

Poking around, I've found this from the UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, JUDGMENT AFTER DEATH (NEGATIVE CONFESSION), M. Stadler, 2008, pp 2,3

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4cf7/4fa5c7361ffd7b8b31d75d91600e5cd0e14c.pdf

Quote

Some scholars have suggested that BD spell 125 is an adaptation of the oaths of purity sworn by priests during their initiations. This suggestion is prompted by the texts of two priestly oaths whose structure and content are reminiscent of the negative confession of BD 125. The oaths, however, are written in Greek on papyri of Roman date. It has been argued that the recent discovery that the oaths are in fact translations from Egyptian constitutes further support for the suggestion. The oaths’ Egyptian version is contained in the so-called Book of the Temple, a manual on the ideal Egyptian temple. However, there are no known manuscripts of The Book of the Temple that predate the Roman Period. Therefore, the text might be much younger than the first witnesses of BD spell 125, although a Middle Kingdom date for the Egyptian priestly oaths has been advocated on the basis of TheBook of the Temple’s Middle Egyptian grammar. This dating method has not been unanimously accepted by Egyptologists; thus it cannot be definitely excluded that there is a reverse dependence, i.e., that the priestly oaths are, in fact, adaptations of BD spell 125. The known and available Egyptian sources do not presently allow a decisive conclusion, but it can be stated that there is a relationship between ritual texts pertaining to the temple context and texts that were used for funerary rituals, or as mortuary compositions.

From the bibliographical notes there is this:

Quote

[...]  additionally, the discussion of whether BD spell 125 may derive from priestly oaths is summarized on pages 23 and 24 [*]. For this possible derivation also see Gee (1998), who could not have known that the Greek priestly oaths from Egypt were, in fact, translations from Egyptian, as shown by Quack (1997). The Book of the Temple is still more or less unpublished; for one of the most recent preliminary reports see Quack (2005: 105, n. 1), with references to the earlier preliminary reports.

* Stadler, 2003a, Der Totenpapyrus des Pa-Month (P. Bibl. nat. 149). Studien zum Altägyptischen Totenbuch 6. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz.

@Wepwawet  This is interesting.  Looking forward to your next.

 

Edited by The Wistman
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Wepwawet
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Please do.  I'm intrigued.

Meanwhile, I need to rectify an omission in not explaining clearly that the priestly negative confessions are not used by them at their judgement, not least because they predate needing to recite the 42 confessions, but are used by them on admission to the priesthood. Some of the priests confessions are obviously specific to them, such as.  I shall eat nothing that is forbidden to priests, and, I shall visit no unclean place, while others have been taken directly into the later 42 confessions, such as, I have killed no man, and, I have not slept with the wife of another. That there are not 42 priestly negative confessions is another indicator that they are specific for one group in society and so there was no need to "pad out" what we get in chapter 125 of the "Book of the Dead" in order to have one confession for each nome.

 

I have reference to fiteen of these priestly confessions, and still search for the rest.

 

Edit:

Before I'm asked, here are the fifteen that I have.

I shall eat nothing that is forbidden to priests.

I shall cut nothing with a knife, nor ask anyone else to do what is forbidden.

I have cut off the head of no living being.

I have killed no man.

I have nothing to do with unclean men.

I have slept with no youth.

I have not slept with the wife of another.

I shall not eat or drink what is forbidden or is listed as forbidden in the books.

Nothing will stick to my fingers

I shall weigh out no grain on the threshing floor.

I shall take no scale in my hand.

I shall measure no land.

I shall visit no unclean place.

I shall touch no sheep's wool.

I shall seize no knife, to the day I die.

 

These are all referenced from Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt, 2001 and 2014, by Jan Assmann.

While some are "negative confessions" others are the prospective priest swearing what he will not do when a priest.

Edited by Wepwawet
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Kenemet
1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

Meanwhile, I need to rectify an omission in not explaining clearly that the priestly negative confessions are not used by them at their judgement, not least because they predate needing to recite the 42 confessions, but are used by them on admission to the priesthood.

 

These are all referenced from Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt, 2001 and 2014, by Jan Assmann.

While some are "negative confessions" others are the prospective priest swearing what he will not do when a priest.

Please continue.  This is fascinating.

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Wepwawet
16 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Please continue.  This is fascinating.

I'm not even sure where to begin as the subject is so esoteric. It doesn't help that while the criticism of Assmann, Quack and a few others about the veracity of the "Book of the Temple" has gone, Quack, as far as I can see, has yet to publish, so everything has to be gleaned from what are essentially scraps thrown out. The criticism was that the first reference to a "Book of the Temple" was discovered by Reinhold Merkelbach on a Ptolemaic period papyrus written in Greek. The critics rightly observed that it is unsound to backwards project from the Ptolemaic period to the Middle Kingdom. It is now recognized that the "Book of the Temple", if not from the Middle Kingdom, and there is still some debate on that, then it is certainly from no later than the 18th Dynasty, and therefore predates the Papyrus of Ani. I personally would not be surprised if it originates in the Amarna upheavel, which, counter what might be expected, produced new orthodox thinking, for instance the "Enigmatic books of the netherworld" and the "Book of the Heavenly Cow", though perhaps temple rules are not so "deep thought", though ending up with the "negative confessions" is, in my opinion, as it presages later Hebrew and then Christian thought about morality and the judgement of the dead.

The number of things that priests should not have done, or swear they will not do in the future, seems to be either 38 or 40, hence the total of "negative confessions" being said to be 80 or 82, and Assmann does in fact use both figures depending on what you read and when he published.

Edited by Wepwawet
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Thanos5150
20 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Publishers will reissue editions with new copyright dates even after the death of the author.  It depends on what they can negotiate with whoever owns the current copyright (which is a whole nother twisty topic in itself.)

You mean even after an author dies a publisher may keep releasing new printings of their work? Why, I've never heard of such madness-please, go on.... 

You said: "The most recent translation of it (1998) is by Faulkner.", not the most recent printing

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