Single-payer healthcare opinion

[+OverSword]

6 minutes ago, Robotic Jew said:

Our current system works that way as well. 

No.  It does not. In our system the doctor will give you the option to have costly surgery or lose the arm.  It's your choice.  There it's the systems choice, if it seems more cost effective to amputate unless you can fly to America and pay for it yourself you won't have a choice.

[Robotic Jew]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

No.  It does not. In our system the doctor will give you the option to have costly surgery or lose the arm.  It's your choice.  There it's the systems choice, if it seems more cost effective to amputate unless you can fly to America and pay for it yourself you won't have a choice.

So...you think with single payer that you will no longer be allowed to have costly surgery to save an appendage...even if you pay out of pocket? 

My insurance(employer "provided" as most Americans have) engages in battles with me over the cost of procedures and medications several times a year. Sometimes I win. Sometimes I don't. I really don't see how the government getting involved is going to make them just start tossing arms in the trash. 

[quiXilver]

Until skyrocketing over charging is reigned in, it won't matter who is footing the bill... it will functionally be unsustainable.

 

The current health care system in America, is financially predatory.

They will treat you, but in doing so, they will extract, rather mercilessly (for healer minded folks) every possible penny from you.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, joc said:

Let's don't backtrack...let's stick with the Russians for a moment shall we?  We grew up in different countries and therefore have differing experiences in education.  As a kid, we (Americans) were taught that Communism and Socialism were 'bad'.  Capitalism was 'good'.  We were taught that the Press in Russia was not free to speak it's own mind...it was controlled by the Government.  When I was in High School...things changed.  I remember my English Teacher in High School telling us that she'd been to Russia and that they were pretty much just like we were.  Everybody had TVs and Boomboxes...everybody got up and went to work and then had pretty much normal lives just like we do.  

What I witnessed as an adult is that The Democrats in Washington were all of the same mind as my English Teacher.  They are no threat...no problem...Communism isn't that bad...Socialism is actually working there pretty well...and on and on.   The Democrats and the Press were very pro Russia...and when Reagan came into office...they hated him with a passion just like they do Trump.  He called The Soviet Union an Evil Empire.  Told them to tear down the wall between East and West Berlin and the Press hated him for it.

What I realized later in life is that the Press in Russia ...was the government.  And the Press in the US was the government too.  They represented the Left view of politics and hated the Right.  The Press and the Left side of the aisle in congress were both very Pro Russia.

So...all that to say that America has a long history of the Left being Pro Russia...suddenly...enter Trump...EVERYTHING is about Russia Bad...Russia supports Trump...Trump Bad...Collusion and on and on.

So now you say...Hmm. Not sure how we got on to Russians.   How convenient to now take the platitude of 'what do the Russians have to do with anything?'.

How very convenient of you.   It has always been about the Russians Setton.  You just wait and see my friend.  You may not be a fan of Brexit now.  But wait until Russia takes THAT union as it's own.  And if you don't think they have eyes on that...if you don't think they created that union for themselves...you don't even know what kind of a chess game this really is.

Yes, yes you're indoctrinated. We all know that. 

What I would like to understand is the below. You seem to have missed it in your Russia/socialism/Communism/the colour blue tirade. 

Quote

 

Your solution to the endemic corruption in your country is to elect a president who actively prevents his staff from providing statements in an entirely legal congressional procedure, openly admits to exceeding his remit for electoral gain and is proud to have avoided paying his dues to your country.

Seems like you almost want to be at the end state you set out before... 

 

 

[+OverSword]

18 minutes ago, Robotic Jew said:

So...you think with single payer that you will no longer be allowed to have costly surgery to save an appendage...even if you pay out of pocket? 

My insurance(employer "provided" as most Americans have) engages in battles with me over the cost of procedures and medications several times a year. Sometimes I win. Sometimes I don't. I really don't see how the government getting involved is going to make them just start tossing arms in the trash. 

Good question.  Here is my example.  A friend was in London as a tourist and came down with the flu.  She went to the hospital who gave her a prescription which she took to a chemist to have filled.  She asked how much do I owe and was told it's free.  She told them she's an American and so not part of the system and they said there is no mechanism to charge her.  That being the case I doubt you can purchase special surgery within the system.  In Canada you would have that option though I think.

[aztek]

we already have bureaucrats decide what we need.  try to get your ins to pay for a colonoscopy if you are under 30, good luck, numerous people died due to colon cancer that was discovered at stage 4. who could not get the test paid by insurance,  average cost of such test is 2k.  

your dental plan can either approve a root canal\crown, as opposed to extraction. or not,  it is up to them, not your doctor.  in usa you can tell a doc, i'll pay, and they will do anything you want,  seems like it is not an option with socialized medicine. 

 

[Setton]

8 minutes ago, aztek said:

we already have bureaucrats decide what we need.  try to get your ins to pay for a colonoscopy if you are under 30, good luck, numerous people died due to colon cancer that was discovered at stage 4. who could not get the test paid by insurance,  average cost of such test is 2k.  

your dental plan can either approve a root canal\crown, as opposed to extraction. or not,  it is up to them, not your doctor.  in usa you can tell a doc, i'll pay, and they will do anything you want,  seems like it is not an option with socialized medicine. 

 

Actually the opposite is true. In the UK, no one except you can overrule your doctor. And, while you may have to be persistent, they will keep testing you until they get to the bottom of it. 

Under the NHS, you would never be refused a colonoscopy based on your age or the cost of the procedure. 

And yes, you do still have the option of going private if you think it's not fast enough. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Setton

[+joc]

17 minutes ago, Setton said:

Your solution to the endemic corruption in your country is to elect a president who actively prevents his staff from providing statements in an entirely legal congressional procedure, openly admits to exceeding his remit for electoral gain and is proud to have avoided paying his dues to your country.

Seems like you almost want to be at the end state you set out before... 

Oh you didn't like my segue into Quid Pro Joe?  

Okay.  Trump is the ANSWER to the endemic corruption in our country.  Also know as The Swamp.  Also known as The Establishment.  Also known as The Never Trumpersl

It's corruption at the highest levels, the CIA, the FBI, the Justice Department, and the Presidency itself.  All of this Russian business was predicated on a bogus dossier researched and paid for by the Hillary Campaign and the DNC, propagated by the Trapper, McCain, Comey and others.  Do you not know the story of that corruption scandal?  When...after two year of investigations by Robert Mueller et al...no collusion with Russia was found....The House was till determined to impeach Trump...so they created another Bogus crime...collusion with Ukraine.   The whole thing has been a Witch Hunt Setton.  Is it that you don't really know how corrupt Washington is...how they hate outsiders like Trump...how they hate insiders who won't play their game?  Or is it that you don't care or what?

[Tatetopa]

42 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Good question.  Here is my example.  A friend was in London as a tourist and came down with the flu.  She went to the hospital who gave her a prescription which she took to a chemist to have filled.  She asked how much do I owe and was told it's free.  She told them she's an American and so not part of the system and they said there is no mechanism to charge her.  That being the case I doubt you can purchase special surgery within the system.  In Canada you would have that option though I think.

A smart man learns from his mistakes.  A wise man learns from other's mistakes.

We don't have to cpoy anybody else when we see the negative consequences of their system.  We could design a better one.

When it is somebody else who is paying the bill, they have a voice in how the money is spent.  That is true for the government or a private insurance company.

When it is you who foots the bill, it should be your choice.

As @quiXilver said above,  public or private systems still have to deal with the cost of health care.

When the price of a colonoscopy is $2k, that limits the number of people who can afford it.  If prices continue to rise at their current rate, it may cost $6k in another 5 years. If you have insurance, the price of insurance goes up to cover it.  If you don't have insurance, you have to come up with the $6k yourself.  Either way, it will further limit access to treatment; not by bureaucrats or rules, just by cost.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, joc said:

Oh you didn't like my segue into Quid Pro Joe?  

Okay.  Trump is the ANSWER to the endemic corruption in our country.  Also know as The Swamp.  Also known as The Establishment.  Also known as The Never Trumpersl

It's corruption at the highest levels, the CIA, the FBI, the Justice Department, and the Presidency itself.  All of this Russian business was predicated on a bogus dossier researched and paid for by the Hillary Campaign and the DNC, propagated by the Trapper, McCain, Comey and others.  Do you not know the story of that corruption scandal?  When...after two year of investigations by Robert Mueller et al...no collusion with Russia was found....The House was till determined to impeach Trump...so they created another Bogus crime...collusion with Ukraine.   The whole thing has been a Witch Hunt Setton.  Is it that you don't really know how corrupt Washington is...how they hate outsiders like Trump...how they hate insiders who won't play their game?  Or is it that you don't care or what?

Uhuh. 

Again, going to have to go with:

Your solution to the endemic corruption in your country is to elect a president who actively prevents his staff from providing statements in an entirely legal congressional procedure, openly admits to exceeding his remit for electoral gain and is proud to have avoided paying his dues to your country.

[+joc]

7 minutes ago, Setton said:

Uhuh. 

Again, going to have to go with:

Your solution to the endemic corruption in your country is to elect a president who actively prevents his staff from providing statements in an entirely legal congressional procedure, openly admits to exceeding his remit for electoral gain and is proud to have avoided paying his dues to your country.

If you are going to go with that...than don't just say it.  show it. prove it.

[Setton]

8 minutes ago, joc said:

If you are going to go with that...than don't just say it.  show it. prove it.

Show what? That you support Trump? I think that's pretty well established. 

[+joc]

9 minutes ago, joc said:

Setton said: a president who actively prevents his staff from providing statements in an entirely legal congressional procedure, openly admits to exceeding his remit for electoral gain and is proud to have avoided paying his dues to your country.

Show me where in the above The President has actually done those things you accuse him of.

[+Desertrat56]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:24 AM, Uncle Sam said:

Single Payer Healthcare is basically putting your life in the hands of bureaucrats who think they know what is best for you. Like my argument in the other thread, it will basically give you the poorest quality of healthcare and heavily burden the taxpayers for it.

Instead we have insurance companies deciding, which is just as bad.  The rule that everyone has to have health insurance and the fact that since that became law enforced by the IRS, no one can afford health insurance.  Everyone is now on high deductible insurance because the companies they work for that provided the insurance can't afford low deductible or even medium deductibe, the people who are self insured are screwed because there is no viable plan that costs less than 1800.00 a month per person.  Thank congress for that one, they could have insisted the insurance companies are not allowed to increase the premiums on their current customers, but they get more out of it bowing to the insurance companies than taking care of their constituents, which means they are not representing anyone but themselves and big business. 

Single payer would require removing the insurance companies completely from the picture, and that won't happen. In effect anyone in the U.S. that needs medical help already has their life in the hands of the bureaucrats and has had for a decade or more.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Desertrat56

[+joc]

12 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Instead we have insurance companies deciding, which is just as bad.  The rule that everyone has to have health insurance and the fact that since that became law enforced by the IRS, no one can afford health insurance.

Not so much!  Trump redacted that 'law'.  No one is forced by the federal government to purchase anything...including health insurance. 

The ACA's  individual mandate penalty was reduced to $0 after the end of 2018. 

You're welcome ~ 

Edited February 6, 2020 by joc

[+Desertrat56]

16 minutes ago, joc said:

Not so much!  Trump redacted that 'law'.  No one is forced by the federal government to purchase anything...including health insurance. 

The ACA's  individual mandate penalty was reduced to $0 after the end of 2018. 

You're welcome ~ 

It still doesn't change the way healthcare works.  If you choose not to or can't afford health insurance then you are really screwed and the insurance companies have not only NOT reduced their rates they have risen them again as of 1-1-2020.  So how does what Trump done help anyone?  It only helps the rich people who can afford to not pay for insurance, maybe keep a special savings account for medical costs like people did in the olden days who had enough money to do that.  The only thing that changed is that now the states can change their rules about how to determine if someone qualifies for Medicaid back to how it was before.  At least there is one thing ( only one that I know of) that the state of New Mexico does better than other states and that is managing medicaid and providing a lower costing health plan for self insured.

Just ask someone in the mid west who can't afford health insurance how they manage their health care.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Desertrat56

[+joc]

9 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

It still doesn't change the way healthcare works.  If you choose not to or can't afford health insurance then you are really screwed and the insurance companies have not only NOT reduced their rates they have risen them again as of 1-1-2020.  So how does what Trump done help anyone?  It only helps the rich people who can afford to not pay for insurance, maybe keep a special savings account for medical costs like people did in the olden days who had enough money to do that.  The only thing that changed is that now the states can change their rules about how to determine if someone qualifies for Medicaid back to how it was before.  At least there is one thing ( only one that I know of) that the state of New Mexico does better than other states and that is managing medicaid and providing a lower costing health plan for self insured.

Just ask someone in the mid west who can't afford health insurance how they manage their health care.

McCain the Traitor screwed the American People by not voting to end Obamacare once and for all like he promised his constituents who elected him that he would.  

Trump has said from the beginning that he intends to fix what Obama and the Democrats enacted as law.  Next January he can start...it will be easy with the help of the newly elected Republican House and even more Republican Senate seats.  One thing he wants to do is get rid of the insane laws that limit buying health insurance.  The way it is now.  If some Insurance company in New Mexico has a great policy...you have to live in New Mexico to buy it.  Trump is going to allow Health Insurance Companies to sell their policies across state lines which will open up the market to competition which will drive down the price of health insurance.

Even though they will have to insure you for existing conditions...that too will be subject to competitive pricing..  

Edited February 6, 2020 by joc

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, joc said:

McCain the Traitor screwed the American People by not voting to end Obamacare once and for all like he promised his constituents who elected him that he would.  

Trump has said from the beginning that he intends to fix what Obama and the Democrats enacted as law.  Next January he can start...it will be easy with the help of the newly elected Republican House and even more Republican Senate seats.  One thing he wants to do is get rid of the insane laws that limit buying health insurance.  The way it is now.  If some Insurance company in New Mexico has a great policy...you have to live in New Mexico to buy it.  Trump is going to allow Health Insurance Companies to sell their policies across state lines which will open up the market to competition which will drive down the price of health insurance.

That would be fine if there were insurance companies with great rates but they don't exist any more because congress opened that door and now that it's been opened you can't close it without major legislation to control the insurance pricing, which won't happen because it would "destroy a whole industry" that has been allowed to run amok.  It isn't going to be easy, it will be a new nightmare.  Trump can make any promises he wants just like all politicians do but he has no clue either.

[aztek]

i don't think anything today can lower the price of health insurance, not a damn thing, not with prices doctors charge, not with  prices big pharma puts on their meds, and laws protecting them from any consequences,  it just won't happen, regardless of who is in the white house,  and to have a free for all at those prices, our tax withholding will be much higher than most expensive policy, not even touching quality of service. 

[+joc]

4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

rump can make any promises he wants just like all politicians do but he has no clue either.

He has kept virtually every promise he made in the last election.  Who does that?  No one.  Trump can do it.

[+Desertrat56]

4 minutes ago, joc said:

He has kept virtually every promise he made in the last election.  Who does that?  No one.  Trump can do it.

Virtually - like but not in fact. 

[+joc]

3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Virtually - like but not in fact. 

Okay Ms. Smarty Pants...what has he NOT done? 

[+joc]

Trump said he' build a wall...it's being built at a very fast pace.

Trump said he'd fix the economy.  Record lowest unemployment in every sector.

Trump said he'd fix trade imbalances...he has.

Trump said he'd bring back jobs...he has.

Trump said he would reform the criminal system...he has.

Trump said he would reform the Veterans health care...he has.

 

 

[+Desertrat56]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

Okay Ms. Smarty Pants...what has he NOT done? 

He didn't get Mexico to pay for his wall for starters.  He promised to pull our troops out of the middle east and that hasn't happened and he isn't the first to make that false promise.  And I have no clue what else he promised because I don't keep track of politicians promises.  I have been paying attention since before Tricky Dick resigned and I know that what a politician says during a campaign is forgotten as soon as the election is over.  Trump is no different, except possibly more like Reagan, reading a script or attempting to.  Reagan was better at that than Trump but still, he repeats what is told and if he goes off script it caused the exact kind of havoc his handlers want. 

[+joc]

1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

He didn't get Mexico to pay for his wall for starters.  He promised to pull our troops out of the middle east and that hasn't happened and he isn't the first to make that false promise.  And I have no clue what else he promised because I don't keep track of politicians promises.  I have been paying attention since before Tricky Dick resigned and I know that what a politician says during a campaign is forgotten as soon as the election is over.  Trump is no different, except possibly more like Reagan, reading a script or attempting to.  Reagan was better at that than Trump but still, he repeats what is told and if he goes off script it caused the exact kind of havoc his handlers want. 

Paranoic Handler crap!

Who 'handled' him while he built his empire darling?