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K9Buck

Single-payer healthcare opinion

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Desertrat56
1 minute ago, joc said:

Trump said he' build a wall...it's being built at a very fast pace.

Trump said he'd fix the economy.  Record lowest unemployment in every sector.

Trump said he'd fix trade imbalances...he has.

Trump said he'd bring back jobs...he has.

Trump said he would reform the criminal system...he has.

Trump said he would reform the Veterans health care...he has.

 

 

There are a lot more factors to fixing the ecconomy than the unemployment numbers and every president since Clinton has been given credit for lowering the uneployment numbers.  And giving money to wall street is not a factor.

Trump has caused a lot of fiscal pain for consumers and some U.S. companies with his "trade fixes".  No, that is not a fix.

What jobs has Trump brought back.  I want a list from a credible source.

What reform has happened?  The only thing I know about and I don't give Trump credit for it, is the taking the juveniles off death row.  That was legislation, not a decree by the great Trump.

Ask the veterans if they have better health care?  I have and the answer is no.  Some things have changed but the VA hospitals are still over full and under staffed.

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joc
4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

He didn't get Mexico to pay for his wall for starters

Actually he did.  Better trade agreements and them policing our border....yeah that cover's it.

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joc
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

There are a lot more factors to fixing the ecconomy than the unemployment numbers and every president since Clinton has been given credit for lowering the uneployment numbers.  And giving money to wall street is not a factor.

Trump has caused a lot of fiscal pain for consumers and some U.S. companies with his "trade fixes".  No, that is not a fix.

What jobs has Trump brought back.  I want a list from a credible source.

What reform has happened?  The only thing I know about and I don't give Trump credit for it, is the taking the juveniles off death row.  That was legislation, not a decree by the great Trump.

Ask the veterans if they have better health care?  I have and the answer is no.  Some things have changed but the VA hospitals are still over full and under staffed.

Well, like you said, you haven't been paying any attention since Nixon...so...your ignorance in politics and your trust of the media is not my concern.

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joc
5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

What jobs has Trump brought back.

Manufacturers under Trump had best year for jobs since '97

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Desertrat56
28 minutes ago, joc said:

Paranoic Handler crap!

Who 'handled' him while he built his empire darling?

Yeah, he built it himself.  No, he conned people into investing and they built his empire, the part that he didn't inherit.

Edited by Desertrat56
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Desertrat56
22 minutes ago, joc said:

Well, like you said, you haven't been paying any attention since Nixon...so...your ignorance in politics and your trust of the media is not my concern.

No, I said I HAVE been paying attention since Nixon, I said I don't pay attention to campaign promises because those are like the wind, gone and forgotten after the election.  If you really paid attention you would know that.

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joc
3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yeah, he built it himself.  No, he conned people into investing and they built his empire.

I really like you Desertrat!  I really do.  And I know I won't change your mind...so I'm just happy for you to be how you are.  It seems to me though...that for someone who hasn't been paying attention...you know a lot about Trump...so I'm guessing its all coming from the Media.  You haven't figured the Media out yet so maybe I'll just let you work on that in your own time! :wub:

Edit: written prior to you posting that you HAVE been paying attention...

Edited by joc
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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, joc said:

I really like you Desertrat!  I really do.  And I know I won't change your mind...so I'm just happy for you to be how you are.  It seems to me though...that for someone who hasn't been paying attention...you know a lot about Trump...so I'm guessing its all coming from the Media.  You haven't figured the Media out yet so maybe I'll just let you work on that in your own time! :wub:

I like you too and this argument doesn't change that.  I don't pay attention to the media.  I don't read newspapers watch the news on television or read on line except here.  I research if something catches my attention.  I have looked in to Trumps great business practices and they do not show him to be a very good business person.  And he is a media personality first, his whole purpose is to get attention and I have no idea why any one ever watches un "reality" television especially if he is in it.  He is a face and a mouth that the people behind the scenes find useful.  As soon as his usefulness starts costing them like it did with Nixon and old Bush he will be gone.

P.S.  I think you would understand the controversy over the wall if you actually went down to the border to check it out for yourself.

Edited by Desertrat56
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Agent0range

The goverment really isn't as bad at insurance as people who don't know what they are talking about make it out to be.  I recently got my VA rating increased to 100%, and a benefit of that is free government insurance for my family.  It was absolutely good enough for me to cancel my private insurance through my employer.  No complaints.  I pay 20% of the doctor bill up to $3000 per year for my entire family then everything is free.  We go for what we want, when we want, where we want.  

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

The goverment really isn't as bad at insurance as people who don't know what they are talking about make it out to be.  I recently got my VA rating increased to 100%, and a benefit of that is free government insurance for my family.  It was absolutely good enough for me to cancel my private insurance through my employer.  No complaints.  I pay 20% of the doctor bill up to $3000 per year for my entire family then everything is free.  We go for what we want, when we want, where we want.  

That is good to know.  I have a friend who has been using the VA for medical but his wife had to have her own insurance.  It sounds like your plan is similar to medicare 80/20 and a fairly low deductible (low now days as mine is 8000 with the company paying the first 5000 only because that costs them less than getting us a lower deductible).  I think insurance companies are thieves nowadays. 

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Agent0range
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

That is good to know.  I have a friend who has been using the VA for medical but his wife had to have her own insurance.  It sounds like your plan is similar to medicare 80/20 and a fairly low deductible (low now days as mine is 8000 with the company paying the first 5000 only because that costs them less than getting us a lower deductible).  I think insurance companies are thieves nowadays. 

That's almost exactly what it's like.  But the deductible is per family, not per person.  If I hit that $3,000 every year, I'm still saving $2,000 by dropping my private insurance.  Now, sure it doesn't cover things like dental, vision, and cosmetic procedures...but neither did my private insurance.

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

That's almost exactly what it's like.  But the deductible is per family, not per person.  If I hit that $3,000 every year, I'm still saving $2,000 by dropping my private insurance.  Now, sure it doesn't cover things like dental, vision, and cosmetic procedures...but neither did my private insurance.

I work for a software company and the client I provide software support for is a government contract for the Miners and it is better insurance than normal too.  The bad thing is the rules change every 6 months so we are always madly trying to get changes in the software for deadlines.  Lately they have been adding benefits which I think is good.

On the other hand, though, I believe we have gone too far with the allowances the insurance companies have to just cut them off and put everything into a single payer system.  If it could be worked out and the funding set up properly I think it would be a good thing, but then I hate insurance companies almost across the board.  They have us tied up in many areas of our lives and it is more for their benefit than ours.

Another benefit of a single payer, government supervised system would get the pharmaceutical companies in line and get the costs of medicinces back where the rest of the world has them.

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joc
3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I like you too and this argument doesn't change that.  I don't pay attention to the media.  I don't read newspapers watch the news on television or read on line except here.  I research if something catches my attention.  I have looked in to Trumps great business practices and they do not show him to be a very good business person.  And he is a media personality first, his whole purpose is to get attention and I have no idea why any one ever watches un "reality" television especially if he is in it.  He is a face and a mouth that the people behind the scenes find useful.  As soon as his usefulness starts costing them like it did with Nixon and old Bush he will be gone.

P.S.  I think you would understand the controversy over the wall if you actually went down to the border to check it out for yourself.

I live in Dallas...lived in Texas most of my life.  The problem with the border is that once they come they don't go back. Most of them get paid in cash and they don't pay any taxes and they send a large portion back to where they came from to payback those who financed their trip. I've been watching it happen since high school.

I was saying years before Trump that we need a wall from Brownsville to Tiajuana.

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joc
3 hours ago, Agent0range said:

The goverment really isn't as bad at insurance as people who don't know what they are talking about make it out to be.  I recently got my VA rating increased to 100%, and a benefit of that is free government insurance for my family.  It was absolutely good enough for me to cancel my private insurance through my employer.  No complaints.  I pay 20% of the doctor bill up to $3000 per year for my entire family then everything is free.  We go for what we want, when we want, where we want.  

I hope you say thank you to President Trump by voting for him!  He is why you have that you know!

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DieChecker
9 hours ago, OverSword said:

More than likely in a single payer system he would have just lost the arm and kept his stuff so I guess the question is was it worth it?  Personally I would give all my worldly possessions to keep my arm.  I can get more stuff but can't grow a new arm.

More likely, with a 20% increase in taxes, he would have never saved up enough to get rental properties to begin with.

People keep thinking this is going to be free, but it's going to cost as much as the entire government budget is, right now. That's not free, that's going to be a doubling, or more, of the taxes we pay.

Edited by DieChecker
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DieChecker
5 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Ask the veterans if they have better health care?  I have and the answer is no.  Some things have changed but the VA hospitals are still over full and under staffed.

So knowing that... Do you support Medicare for All? Wont it likely be run by the same people in the same way?

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Gromdor
10 hours ago, OverSword said:

More than likely in a single payer system he would have just lost the arm and kept his stuff so I guess the question is was it worth it?  Personally I would give all my worldly possessions to keep my arm.  I can get more stuff but can't grow a new arm.

Well....  He does have a wife and two kids to feed.  He was a moron and cashed in his 401k to purchase his rental properties too.  I think the single payer system would have kept his arm and his stuff-  You know, more value to society in saving the limb as opposed to saving a few bucks initially and then paying food stamps and disability his whole life. 

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joc
21 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Well....  He does have a wife and two kids to feed.  He was a moron and cashed in his 401k to purchase his rental properties too.  I think the single payer system would have kept his arm and his stuff-  You know, more value to society in saving the limb as opposed to saving a few bucks initially and then paying food stamps and disability his whole life. 

That just shows you don't really understand how the game is played. They want you to be dependent on food stamps and Welfare. It's how they maintain control. Without victims they have no base. Without victims they are powerless.

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joc
6 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Ask the veterans if they have better health care?  I have and the answer is no.  Some things have changed but the VA hospitals are still over full and under staffed.

You just spoke with agent orange about his benefits. Where do you think those came from Obama? No! They came from Trump! That's what I've been trying to tell you!

If you have been paying attention then you know that the Democrats have had it in for him before he was even elected! Give the guy a another four years the hospitals won't be overcrowded anymore.

Edited by joc
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Gromdor
6 minutes ago, joc said:

That just shows you don't really understand how the game is played. They want you to be dependent on food stamps and Welfare. It's how they maintain control. Without victims they have no base. Without victims they are powerless.

Well, he is a Republican in a mostly Republican state.  At the rate he is going he will definitely be on food stamps and welfare.  So I guess everything is going according to Republican plan?  A single payer system is way too late for him now.  His window of avoiding medical bankruptcy came and went.

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joc
21 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Well, he is a Republican in a mostly Republican state.  At the rate he is going he will definitely be on food stamps and welfare.  So I guess everything is going according to Republican plan?  A single payer system is way too late for him now.  His window of avoiding medical bankruptcy came and went.

I will say it again.  In America, Single Payer means ...the end of the constitution.  That is what the Left wants.  The Left couldn't care less about health care.

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Uncle Sam

This is why it won't work. The Single Payer Healthcare or Healthcare for All or Universal Healthcare... whatever you want to call it because it all is the same thing. Take a moment to read all this, I mean all and including the links that are posted with it. You might learn something and why it will be disastrous for United States to take this healthcare plan that Democrats want. We are not even mention the hidden stuff added to the bill that they plan to introduce that have nothing to do with Healthcare and everything to do with furthering along their socialist agenda or subverting our sovereignty by aiding illegal immigration. Many of these bills introduce by Democrats don't take into consideration what would happen AFTER they introduce those bills and the negative effects it would have on the citizens. This would cause thousands to die due to long wait times, poor quality of care due to lack of medicine, increased burden due to taxes, increase in homelessness across the nation, destruction of middle class, shortage of funds for social programs, increase in national debt, increase chance of economic collapse, shortage of medical professions across the nation, and increasing chance of epidemics springing up in urban centers.
 

Quote

How Much Would Universal Healthcare Cost Per Year?
First thing first, let’s find out how much Healthcare costs for the average citizen. Taking statistics gathered from CMS website, the average cost for United States is $11,172 per citizen. Now we will multiple this costs by the total population of our nation, which are 330,221,714 people who is currently living within our borders. This will bring out the grand total of cost for Universal Healthcare to $3,689,236,988,808 which is $3.6 trillion dollars per year. Now too add how much the illegal immigrant’s costs this nation per year, this total is $18.5 billion dollars in tax funded revenue which is a massive burden on taxpayers. The cost will jump to a total of $3,707,736,988,808 aka $3.7 trillion dollars per year. The Universal Healthcare alone would almost take up all of the government’s spending which is $4.7 trillion dollars per year. To account for the Universal Healthcare across the nation, all taxes would have to be doubled which would cripple almost middle and lower income families. Let me repeat, it would cripple the lower and middle income homes, effectively making it impossible for anyone to pay their bills.

* United States Annual Government Spending: https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763
* Healthcare Cost for Citizens: https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-systems/statistics-trends-and-reports/nationalhealthexpenddata/nhe-fact-sheet
* Illegal Immigrants Costs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/#1115e40512c4

Lower Quality of Healthcare
Once universal health care is in place, there would be millions of people signing up for it which will lead to overtaxing those who have to take care of the patients. This would lead to a shortage of doctors, dentists, and other professions that make sure you are healthy. This means the wait times for getting in would dramatically increase from minutes to hours, this affect we seen when Obama care was implemented and put into action. This means those with life threatening illness or injuries are more likely never see a doctor while they die waiting. Another aspect is the drugs used by the professions and how much they got in stock. Since the number of patients will massively increase, this will lead to shortages in the drugs. Doctors will be forced to use cheaper drugs when taking care of their patients, this will more than likely increase the chances of the drugs not working because dilution or having a deadly reaction to the patient. This will lower the quality of drugs that are used during procedures; this will also include dentists and other professions that require drugs to work. Due to hospital being overcrowded, this could also lead to viral outbreaks or pandemics among the population. More human contact in a hospital increases the likely chance you will catch an illness, thus added to the troubles you face. Cases ranging from maybe 2 to 5 a year would jump dramatically depending on the population density. Rural areas would fare better in this situation because the population is on the lower end while cities will be hit the hardest.

* Doctor Shortage With Universal Healthcare: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/710200
* Quality Decreases With Universal Healthcare: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447686/

What About Raising the Minimum Wage to Pay?
People tout that increasing minimum wage as the solution to get Universal Income implemented. The idea behind this is by raising minimum wage, it will allow workers to earn more but sadly this isn’t the case when it comes to the economy. When you increase the minimum wage for workers, business will have the raise the price on their products to pay their workers and keep their businesses from ending up in the red. Green means businesses are earning a profit, black means they are breaking even, and red means they are losing profits. The first thing that will increase in price is the fuel from taxes and labor costs which will in turn increase the price of the materials and food that is being shipped across the nation. Because materials and crops now cost more, the basic products prices will be raised automatically. Now you need to add in the labor costs for the workers and the taxes from the government to the basic price of the product being sold by businesses across United States. Remember the taxes are used to fund your Universal Healthcare which doubled the taxes you the citizen will have to pay out of pocket.

Now the low and middle income families are right back where they are, barely making enough to make the ends meet by the end of the month. The bracket of people that is hurt by this the most is the disabled and elderly since they cannot work, thus have to rely solely on the social security income and food stamps to make it through the month. The only way for the government to remedy this situation would to increase the amount they get per month which in turn would increase the taxes on the citizens to make up for the difference. This in turn would increase the cost of everything that is sold within United States and make it harder for everyone to get by. I haven’t even mention the fact that many jobs across United States would be killed in the process, meaning there will be less job openings for people to work and would only exacerbate the homeless crisis some states are facing

California and New York would more than likely be overwhelmed by the homeless crisis which would lead to many citizens fleeing the state and less tax revenue for them to use. They would then be forced to rely on government funding to relieve some of the strain which is basically making other states pay for these states’ overspending and thoughtless policies they implemented. Only thing stopping those in power from taking more extreme measures is the constitution and the threat of being voted out of office or impeached by the house and senate. We already have seen the same people advocating for Universal Healthcare call for the removal of the constitution that limits the government power, removal of the electoral college that ensures rural states gets a voice, and dismantling of American institution in knee jerk reactions to Trump winning.

* Raising Minimum Wage Increases Poverty: https://mises.org/library/how-minimum-wage-laws-increase-poverty
* Raising Minimum Wage Increases Prices: https://www.heritage.org/jobs-and-labor/report/15-minimum-wages-will-substantially-raise-prices
* Raising Minimum Wage Kills Jobs: https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamdunkelberg/2012/12/31/why-raising-the-minimum-wage-kills-jobs/#564e46921b6e

Conclusion of This Argument
These are just a few of the cons of doing Universal Healthcare which is destructive to our nation and can lead to economic collapse. Making Universal Income work is impossible at worst and unlivable nightmare at best. You are forcing law abiding taxpayers across United States, regardless of their situation at home to pay for the rest of the nation who refuse to pitch in or are unable to pitch in. The only way this would work is either by gunpoint or automatically taxing citizen’s paychecks directly. Neither would make the citizens of this nation happy nor would it help those it is designed to help, only end up hurting them in the end. If you want to make a difference, I suggest tweaking the already existing program to make it more effective and affordable for the lower income families.

As for those that think I am heartless for not wanting Universal Healthcare, you are sorely mistaken by that assumption. Universal Healthcare will make matters worse for everyone across the nation and people will more than likely end up homeless cause they can't afford the taxes that comes with the Universal Healthcare. Remember people across the nation are living paycheck to paycheck, barely making by and Universal Healthcare will require the federal government to effectively double the taxes we already pay which further takes up what little money we have left for other things. People across the nation would have to make sacrifices to even be able to survive in the new environment that the Democrats has pushed onto us without any considerate what it would do to the rest of us. This would cause thousands to die due to long wait times, poor quality of care due to lack of medicine, increased burden due to taxes, increase in homelessness across the nation, destruction of middle class, shortage of funds for social programs, increase in national debt, increase chance of economic collapse, shortage of medical professions across the nation, and increasing chance of epidemics springing up in urban centers.

Is the price of Universal Healthcare even worth it?

 

Edited by Uncle Sam
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Gromdor
23 minutes ago, joc said:

I will say it again.  In America, Single Payer means ...the end of the constitution.  That is what the Left wants.  The Left couldn't care less about health care.

And that's simply untrue.  We already have single payer for our vets (the VA) and our poor and elderly (Medicare/Medicaid). 

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Gromdor
20 minutes ago, Uncle Sam said:

This is why it won't work. The Single Payer Healthcare or Healthcare for All or Universal Healthcare... whatever you want to call it because it all is the same thing. Take a moment to read all this, I mean all and including the links that are posted with it. You might learn something and why it will be disastrous for United States to take this healthcare plan that Democrats want. We are not even mention the hidden stuff added to the bill that they plan to introduce that have nothing to do with Healthcare and everything to do with furthering along their socialist agenda or subverting our sovereignty by aiding illegal immigration. Many of these bills introduce by Democrats don't take into consideration what would happen AFTER they introduce those bills and the negative effects it would have on the citizens. This would cause thousands to die due to long wait times, poor quality of care due to lack of medicine, increased burden due to taxes, increase in homelessness across the nation, destruction of middle class, shortage of funds for social programs, increase in national debt, increase chance of economic collapse, shortage of medical professions across the nation, and increasing chance of epidemics springing up in urban centers.
 

 

I'm seeing a trend.  It's fear of a nefarious hidden plot to take over the Constitution and your freedoms that seem to make you resistant to the idea of revamping our healthcare system rather than being alarmed with how broken it currently is.  We live in an age of medical bankruptcies and Gofundme when it comes to our healthcare and it is only getting worse.  Obama didn't fix it, Trump didn't fix it, and now you are worried that someone like Sanders or Warren will fix it their way.

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Uncle Sam
33 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I'm seeing a trend.  It's fear of a nefarious hidden plot to take over the Constitution and your freedoms that seem to make you resistant to the idea of revamping our healthcare system rather than being alarmed with how broken it currently is.  We live in an age of medical bankruptcies and Gofundme when it comes to our healthcare and it is only getting worse.  Obama didn't fix it, Trump didn't fix it, and now you are worried that someone like Sanders or Warren will fix it their way.

You seriously don't see the ramifications this would have on our nation as a whole? Everyone gets medicare including those who don't contribute into the system, the upper middle class, the 1% that you hate, and illegal immigrants who subvert our sovereignty to benefit on taxpayers dime? You also don't seem to see that this would double the taxes we already pay which puts a heavy burden on those who are struggling and decimate the lower middle class meaning they become non-existence, the same people that you claim to be fighting for. Not only that, hospitals will become overcrowded and become a breeding ground for new epidemics while the doctors we already have are strained to even provide the adequate care. With millions upon millions of new people now streaming to all areas that medicare covers, we will be faced with massive shortages of medicine and medical professions because there is just too many people. Since this will all be coming from the taxpayers dime, it would put a massive strain on our economy as a whole, meaning we would face instances where our government will be lacking the funds. Because the government will be lacking funds to support other social services, you will see many services being cut or diminish, some of these services are for those who can't provide for themselves. Those that can't provide for themselves will end up on the streets, homeless along with the poor who were barely making ends meet, this will lead to a increase in homelessness across the nation. This doesn't include the fact because there will be a shortage in the rarest medication that takes a lot of manpower to make, the quality of care would surely diminish till we are only receiving the cheapest and least effective medicine, this includes all medical settings even the dentist. The chain reaction to introducing this massive and burdensome bill will be a disaster on epic proportion, the largest this world has ever seen since we are dealing with the most massive and richest country in the world.

It seems you Democrats never think about the ramifications aka what happens after you introduce these bills. If you take into consideration what will happen afterwards, then you could tackle the problem of healthcare. If you want to effectively fix healthcare, I suggest you tweak the current one and figure out solutions. Don't just introduce a massive and fundamentally altering bill that will disrupt everything we have built to bring it a screeching halt. How do I know this, I can look to other nations who implemented this and see how it affected their nation.

Edited by Uncle Sam
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