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K9Buck

Biblical contradictions?

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Mr Walker
3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

:) It is what the writers believed

it  is also often what some fundamentalists believe, having closely read and studied the bible, who strangely have a much kinder view of god than catholics raised on fire brimstone sin hell and damnation 

Is also the mythology behind revelations  which is NOt a reference to the destruction of the temple or roman occupation.

It really is an allegorical or literal(by belief) end of world scenario where the unrepentant die a second death of body and soul(no hell involved ) and the saved are placed on a new earth restored to edenic conditions. It even ends with the words" I am the alpha and the omega" (the beginning and the end)   

 

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, Guyver said:

See that first part you said?  I can see why you like that.  It’s just that the same Jesus who loves everyone and wants everyone to love him is coming back to slay all the wicked people and throw them into burning fiery hell to be tormented forever.  According to the Bible

That makes me not like this Bible Jesus because I think that true love combined with the power of Almighty God would make all the wicked just instantly disappear and be non-existent instead of torturing them forever.  I mean forever is a long long time.

Thinking of the precision, dependability, beauty, sheer vastness of the universe...can you imagine?  If God could do that, then he has the power to make any or all of his enemies plus all wicked sinners just instantly dematerialize into pure vapor.

Thats the way loving God would kill you.  

IMHO.

While this is the way revelations  is often interpreted it is not accurate

Eg it says the smoke for the fires rises into the air forever But his is  reference to distance not  time  Th e words used for time dont actually mean forever although it appears that  some sinners may have a longer punishment due to their crimes   eon simply means an age or an era  and indeed refers to the time of punishment which is limited to one age or era   I dont believe that any of this is real, but i do think we need to use the meanings of the writers  if we wish to accept or reject biblical christianity  

it also says that the sinners die the second death o f body and soul, and thus cease to exist.

Finally it says that sin ceases to exist, which cannot be true if there are still sinners being punished 

The bible really never says that people will go to heaven or hell when they die.

That is  a purely catholic theological invention.

   It says the y sleep in their graves until the resurrection days, and then   are either put back to death, or given eternal life 

This is no crueller than what an athiest  would expect ;ie to eventually die and cease to exist, but it offers hope to those who believe 

What does the bible say are the wages of sin? 

Death. NOT eternal torment or suffering

What is promised to believers?

Eternal LIFE  on the new earth, not  in heaven. 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

How would you even know that?  It’s something you’re choosing to believe from the Bible while simultaneously dismissing the parts you don’t like.

No one wants to slaughter a goat for their “sins” in today’s modern world. So yeah, believing Jesus just takes all your sins away is an easy thing to embrace.  

I believe in taking responsibility for my own actions.

Nup it is one of the clear and main messages of the new testament Remember i am not talking about what i believe (i dont believe any of this) I am talking about accurately interpreting and deconstructing the bible, so a person can have an accurate understanding of a faith when the y are choosing one;  not be scared off by some theology constructed to scare people  into becoming members of a church.

My argument explains why humans are ALL guaranteed a chance to have eternal life in christian theology, and indeed YES, only by by taking responsibility for your own actions (and thoughts) can you  gain this.

And it is this reason why the writers say it is so hard to get to "heaven" 

Most humans are beguiled by materialism.

By their desires, emotions, and wants, and thus remove themselves from the qualities required to be given eternal life 

However this is ALWAYS the individual's choice, as we were forgiven (in christian theology) our original choice to disobey god, and are now ONLY held accountable for our own thoughts and actions  .

Christ does not take your own sins away. The process for them is complicated and requires taking personal responsibility and action.   You must (truly honestly and openly)  repent them,make restitution for them , make a commitment not to repeat them, and ask forgiveness for them, from god and the hurt party.  

If you  don't follow those procedures, christs sacrifice does NOT save you  from your own sins .

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

How would you even know that?  It’s something you’re choosing to believe from the Bible while simultaneously dismissing the parts you don’t like.

No one wants to slaughter a goat for their “sins” in today’s modern world. So yeah, believing Jesus just takes all your sins away is an easy thing to embrace.  

I believe in taking responsibility for my own actions.

Nup it is one of the clear and main messages of the new testament Remember i am not talking about what i believe (i dont believe any of this) I am talking about accurately interpreting and deconstructing the bible, so a person can have an accurate understanding of a faith when the y are choosing one;  not be scared off by some theology constructed to scare people  into becoming members of a church.

My argument explains why humans are ALL guaranteed a chance to have eternal life in christian theology, and indeed YES, only by by taking responsibility for your own actions (and thoughts) can you  gain this.

And it is this reason why the writers say it is so hard to get to "heaven" 

Most humans are beguiled by materialism.

By their desires, emotions, and wants, and thus remove themselves from the qualities required to be given eternal life 

However this is ALWAYS the individual's choice, as we were forgiven (in christian theology) our original choice to disobey god, and are now ONLY held accountable for our own thoughts and actions  .

Christ does not take your own sins away. The process for them is complicated and requires taking personal responsibility and action.   You must (truly honestly and openly)  cofess them and feel sorrow for them. You must  repent them, make restitution for them , make a commitment not to repeat them, and ask forgiveness for them, from god and the hurt party.  

If you  don't follow those procedures, christs sacrifice does NOT save you  from your own sins .

Plus of course the writers of the OT were experts in human nature for ther time 

The  biblical principles of seeking forgiveness are almost identical to the psychological  methods for relieving guilt and anxiety.

  The y also form the basis for the modern form of restorative justice used in schools.

confession  of guilt and saying you are  sorry

making restitution

working to improve behavior

and asking forgiveness of those you hurt.   

 

This longer version is because i was off getting my wife her tea, and when i came back it was too late to add to my post 

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Crikey
10 hours ago, Guyver said:

Would you mind showing me in the bible where children and handicapped people are all innocent and bound for heaven?

Romans 3:10 - "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;"

 

As kids get older, many begin losing their innocence at the hands of bad parenting, bad schoolteachers and the bad world in general (most of us have been through it)-

Jesus said:- " if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:6)

"Become as little children" (Matt 18:3)

rel-Jesus-baby.jpg

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Essan
1 hour ago, Crikey said:

 

As kids get older, many begin losing their innocence at the hands of bad parenting, bad schoolteachers and the bad world in general (most of us have been through it)-

Jesus said:- " if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:6)

"Become as little children" (Matt 18:3)

rel-Jesus-baby.jpg

 

:o     Drowning people just because they failed to fix a wonky paving stone, and a kid, who was too busy playing on his iPhone and not looking where he was going, almost fell over because if it?   :o  

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Rlyeh
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

A child or intellectually disabled person is not capable of sinning,(knowingly committing a wrong or harm by choice)  and thus does not require forgiveness for their individual sins in life. 

So it's only a sin if you know it's a sin?

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Crikey

I mentioned bad parenting earlier, here's an example-

As a kid I overheard my dad saying to my mam about me - "He's nutty! No don't laugh, I really do mean it, he wastes all his pocket money on silly plastic model aeroplanes then hangs 'em on string from his bedroom ceiling in full view of the street, I dread to think what the neighbours are saying about him, when's he going to start saving his money instead?"

Huh, perhaps he'd have preferred me to join the local street gang and run wild instead of sitting quietly up in my room building models?

Needless to say I took no notice, he's been dead 40 years but I wonder what he'd say if he knew I still buy kits, I've currently got my eye on this one down the model shop, I can hold it in my hand and manoeuvre it around making engine noises pretending its searching for Bigfoot in the forests..:D-

cherokee.jpg

Edited by Crikey
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SmartAZ

You are not going to get a scholarly discussion here. Quora.com is the place to go for that. But moderation there sux.

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Guyver
6 hours ago, Crikey said:

 

As kids get older, many begin losing their innocence at the hands of bad parenting, bad schoolteachers and the bad world in general (most of us have been through it)-

Jesus said:- " if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:6)

"Become as little children" (Matt 18:3)

rel-Jesus-baby.jpg

Nor bad Crikey.  I actually agree with you.  You could have added the verse that Jesus used in Matthew I believe that states children are actually children of God who have angels that exist in heaven where God resides but also observe the children.  In any event, the Bible does not clearly state that all children are innocent, but it does say the opposite in Paul’s epistles.  So, this is in itself a bit of a contradiction.

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Guyver
9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No real being can be omnipotent nor omniscient 

I dont believe a god created the universe i believe gods are evolved products of the universe.

Old wise and powerful,  guiding younger species to  wisdom and maturity but not all seeing or all knowing.

Nothing real can be that.

Gods are real so they are not omniscient nor omnipotent.

With respect, what you believe is not necessarily truth.  You could be right.....but there is also the argument of the Prime Mover, the first cause.  Something doesn’t come from nothing, something comes from something else.  A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.

Therefore, the idea that it was God who existed prior to the creation of this universe and was its cause is just as likely as anything else.  In that sense God would be omniscient and omnipotent....I don’t understand why you consider that impossible.  It is certainly what some Bible writers believe.  The Bible makes the case that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving.

Christians add that he is also just....which is why he punishes sin.  Yet, it wouldn’t make much sense to think that God had the capacity to create the universe, but not know that sin would exist in it.  In fact, who was it who put the trees in the garden?  It was God himself who created the opportunity for humans to sin.....according to the Bible.

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Guyver
5 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

So it's only a sin if you know it's a sin?

According to the Bible, yes that is true.  In Paul’s Epistles it states that where there is no law, there is no sin.

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Guyver

Mr.  Walker.....instead of responding to all of your points, many of which are valid and do represent Christian theology, I’d like to discuss the points about Revelation, the Second Death, and the wages of sin being death.

You are correct that these thoughts are found in scripture.  But so are many other points that contradict these points, like the resurrection of the dead for all people to face judgement (Great White Throne Judgement) and the eternal punishment of the wicked where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

So again.....this is yet another example of the Bible saying different things about the same thing- which is what a contradiction is, and thus the purpose of this thread.

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Crikey
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

..the Bible does not clearly state that all children are innocent, but it does say the opposite in Paul’s epistles.  So, this is in itself a bit of a contradiction.

Which Paul verses are they?

Jesus had no beef with kids, here he is in action bringing back Jairus's daughter-

 

 

 

 

Edited by Crikey

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Cookie Monster
9 hours ago, Crikey said:

 

As kids get older, many begin losing their innocence at the hands of bad parenting, bad schoolteachers and the bad world in general (most of us have been through it)-

Jesus said:- " if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:6)

"Become as little children" (Matt 18:3)

rel-Jesus-baby.jpg

Life is full of knocks and if you haven't received yours the people that have will hate you for it.

Fact of life..... but they also cause a whole range of problems for themselves so dont get sucked into it. Be professional when others arent, dont let the negative establish itself into you, keep your head up high, and have some good stress coping techniques.

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Guyver
10 minutes ago, Crikey said:

Which Paul verses are they?

Jesus had no beef with kids, here he is in action bringing back Jairus's daughter-

Romans 3:10 - "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;"

Romans 3:9 - "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin."

Galatians 3:22 - "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Romans 5 - truncated - "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

                                    -  Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

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Crikey
10 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Life is full of knocks and if you haven't received yours the people that have will hate you for it.

Fact of life..... but they also cause a whole range of problems for themselves so dont get sucked into it. Be professional when others arent, dont let the negative establish itself into you, keep your head up high, and have some good stress coping techniques.

 

Yes, a healthy sense of humour is essential, because anybody without one is like a wagon without springs, jolted by every pebble on the road..:D

I've taken life's knocks like everybody else but as a christian I know how to roll with the punch because I know that our life on this material earth is just a temporary thing and shouldn't be taken seriously-

"We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal" (2 Cor 4:18 )

"My Christian faith is my  backbone"- Bear Grylls

b-grrylls.gif

 

 

 

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Crikey
18 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Romans 3:10 - "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one" etc..

 

Yeah even Jesus said- "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19), so the rest of us poor schmucks are waaay down the "goodness" scale.

But kids brains are like clean fresh hard drives from birth and get cluttered up and polluted with junk later, hence the warning-

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this...to keep oneself from being polluted by the world" (James 1:27)

 

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Essan
Just now, Crikey said:

 

Yeah even Jesus said- "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19), so the rest of us poor schmucks are waaay down the "goodness" scale.

But kids brains are like clean fresh hard drives from birth and get cluttered up and polluted with junk later, hence the warning-

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this...to keep oneself from being polluted by the world" (James 1:27)

 

Were it not for "original sin" we would have no understanding of what good (or evil) was ....    

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Guyver
3 hours ago, Crikey said:

 

Yeah even Jesus said- "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19), so the rest of us poor schmucks are waaay down the "goodness" scale.

But kids brains are like clean fresh hard drives from birth and get cluttered up and polluted with junk later, hence the warning-

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this...to keep oneself from being polluted by the world" (James 1:27)

 

Right.....I agree with you once again and consider that particular verse from James one of the Bible’s finest.  But Martin Luther did not.  He wished to exclude the Book of James (Jesus brother) from the Bible the way that other books have been excluded from the cannon by Protestants.

That just shows me that people pick and choose whatever they wish from the Bible and believe that.

And, it probably does sound as if I’m critical of this fact, and I guess I am to a degree.  Yet, I do believe that people should do whatever they believe helps them get through this crazy world without harming themselves or someone else.

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Crikey
7 minutes ago, Guyver said:

..I do believe that people should do whatever they believe helps them get through this crazy world without harming themselves or someone else..

 

Yes, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philip 2:12 KJV)

PS- Anybody old enough to know what TV show that clip is from?

 

Edited by Crikey
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Crikey
14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The bible really never says that people will go to heaven or hell when they die..

 

You'd better argue it out with JC when you meet him mate-

Jesus said:- "All in the graves shall come out, to resurrection or damnation" (John 5:28/29)

 

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Desertrat56
40 minutes ago, Crikey said:

 

Yes, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philip 2:12 KJV)

PS- Anybody old enough to know what TV show that clip is from?

 

looks like Space 1999

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Mr Walker
49 minutes ago, Crikey said:

 

You'd better argue it out with JC when you meet him mate-

Jesus said:- "All in the graves shall come out, to resurrection or damnation" (John 5:28/29)

 

Yep.

After sleeping in their graves  til the resurrection day, the bible says the dead will be resurrected on two separate days Those not saved will die the second death of body and soul Those who are saved gain eternal life.  

So, if the y come out of the graves, the y are not in heaven or hell, and they don't go  to either place when they die  From memory  the saved are placed on the new earth which, like eden, has no death, no pain, no suffering .  

From memory some of those saved are in heaven for a period, checking the books of judgement, and verifying god's decisions on those who had died.  But none stay there permanently.

Again, none of this is my belief but it is what the bible says, and those who follow the bible should understand it.

Many simply follow a  religious creed like catholicism or anglicanism which is  often non biblical. Thats ok too, if it works for them but opens up claims of hypocrisy by those who believe the bible, not  theology, is the foundation of christianity 

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Yep.

After sleeping in their graves  til the resurrection day, the bible says the dead will be resurrected on two separate days Those not saved will die the second death of body and soul Those who are saved gain eternal life.  

So, if the y come out of the graves, the y are not in heaven or hell, and they don't go  to either place when they die  From memory  the saved are placed on the new earth which, like eden, has no death, no pain, no suffering .  

From memory some of those saved are in heaven for a period, checking the books of judgement, and verifying god's decisions on those who had died.  But none stay there permanently.

Again, none of this is my belief but it is what the bible says, and those who follow the bible should understand it.

Many simply follow a  religious creed like catholicism or anglicanism which is  often non biblical. Thats ok too, if it works for them but opens up claims of hypocrisy by those who believe the bible, not  theology, is the foundation of christianity 

:lol: The dead are risen from their graves.  Zombies anyone?  Do you think that translation is a bit iffy on the details?  Maybe someone needs to find the original and see if there is a translator that can make sense of it.

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