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K9Buck

Biblical contradictions?

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Habitat
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Many simply follow a  religious creed like catholicism or anglicanism which is  often non biblical. Thats ok too, if it works for them but opens up claims of hypocrisy by those who believe the bible, not  theology, is the foundation of christianity 

It shows the human penchant for diversification, that one text led to such disparate interpretations. That some people will adhere rigidly to one of them, unquestioningly, is the token of a simple mind.

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Guyver said:

With respect, what you believe is not necessarily truth.  You could be right.....but there is also the argument of the Prime Mover, the first cause.  Something doesn’t come from nothing, something comes from something else.  A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.

Therefore, the idea that it was God who existed prior to the creation of this universe and was its cause is just as likely as anything else.  In that sense God would be omniscient and omnipotent....I don’t understand why you consider that impossible.  It is certainly what some Bible writers believe.  The Bible makes the case that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving.

Christians add that he is also just....which is why he punishes sin.  Yet, it wouldn’t make much sense to think that God had the capacity to create the universe, but not know that sin would exist in it.  In fact, who was it who put the trees in the garden?  It was God himself who created the opportunity for humans to sin.....according to the Bible.

Such a being or entity requires faith/belief and suspension of logical thinking.

I am not capable of that. BUT I know god is real,powerful,and loving.

Thus i must conclude that, being real and physical, god must conform to the natural laws of the universe (something an imagined god does not have to do) 

ALos one is otherwise left to explain how and why god can exist without creation or cause  but the universe required god to create it 

Basically, belief in itself, is powerful and healing and i would deny no one a belief in any form of benevolent god, BUT if such a god is real physical powerful and interventionist, then it must be part of, and obey the basic laws of the real world, even if it uses technologies to perform apparent miracles 

You are right/ any idea is possible; however not all realities are possible

For me "god " is not an idea or mental construct, but a real   physical powerful living being, who takes an interest in me, teaches me, empowers  me and protects me.  

Indeed inthe story the writers realised than man has freewill They thus wrote of a god who gave them that free will.

He gave them instructions and rules but let them make choices The choice to sin/,eat the apple, was not a given(even god could not know which way humans would choose in this story) ,and indeed inthe bible it says humans were the ONLY race in heaven  to succumb to this temptation ALL others remained loyal to god. but we chose the losing side in the war of the angels  

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

It shows the human penchant for diversification, that one text led to such disparate interpretations. That some people will adhere rigidly to one of them, unquestioningly, is the token of a simple mind.

In truth, every single person holds a slightly different belief, as a part of their individual world views.

  Where there is enough similarity between views, people can belong to  one religion or one branch of it .

Where there are great  differences it causes conflict; sometimes just of opinion, but sometimes physical. 

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Habitat
Just now, Mr Walker said:

In truth, every single person holds a slightly different belief, as a part of their individual world views.

  Where there is enough similarity between views, people can belong to  one religion or one branch of it .

Where there are great  differences it causes conflict; sometimes just of opinion, but sometimes physical. 

naturally people have different interpretations of any text, but the degree of divergence between Christian sects is enormous. 

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

:lol: The dead are risen from their graves.  Zombies anyone?  Do you think that translation is a bit iffy on the details?  Maybe someone needs to find the original and see if there is a translator that can make sense of it.

Like i said it is not something I believe, but I do feel that people who follow the bible should at least understand it. 

but no, not "zombies"

 The context of the narrative indicates the writers were talking about  real physical people who had died but were now   restored to full life, in body and mind.

(Arguably a  new body, or their old one restored) 

A modern person would consider this idea impossible, and thus assume that the writers did not mean literally.

However at the time, the writers and readers believed such things were possible and literal,  given the power of god  

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Mr Walker
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

naturally people have different interpretations of any text, but the degree of divergence between Christian sects is enormous. 

Again, because of the individual differences caused by culture, personal experiences and education etc. 

Diverge too far and, like many modern people, you change your religion altogether, while retaining your core spiritual beliefs. 

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Mr Walker
8 hours ago, Guyver said:

Mr.  Walker.....instead of responding to all of your points, many of which are valid and do represent Christian theology, I’d like to discuss the points about Revelation, the Second Death, and the wages of sin being death.

You are correct that these thoughts are found in scripture.  But so are many other points that contradict these points, like the resurrection of the dead for all people to face judgement (Great White Throne Judgement) and the eternal punishment of the wicked where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

So again.....this is yet another example of the Bible saying different things about the same thing- which is what a contradiction is, and thus the purpose of this thread.

Because it is likely  that the writers did NOt contradict themselves, one must look for clues in language and context to find the consistency. That require a lot of work and study 

I included the resurrection of the dead to be judged.  I noted there is some indication of difernt  time -limited punishments for different sins.

But two things are clear This occurs AFTER judgement which occurs on a fixed day in the future.

Until then the dead sleep and know nothing. After judgement, punishment is time limited to an eon or an age, not eternity.

The two outcomes for all people, alive or dead a t judgement time, are death or eternal life   Heaven is NOT the home of the saved and hell does not exist.

it is a mistranslation of words like sheol or ghenna which represented death, burial, and burning of dead bodies

.  Either innocently or deliberately catholicism invented heaven and hell (as places for human souls after death )maybe in order to scare people into believing.  

.Some  people avoid the contradictions by dismissing parts of the bible such as Revelations. However really one must read and study  and make the best possible judgement based on overall points, context, language, and understanding of the beliefs of the original writers .

  

 

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'Walt' E. Kurtz

The whole thing is

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Guyver
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

naturally people have different interpretations of any text, but the degree of divergence between Christian sects is enormous. 

Absolutely, from snake-handling Pentecostals to Catholic Flagellants.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Guyver said:

Absolutely, from snake-handling Pentecostals to Catholic Flagellants.

It is like a food that lends itself to all sorts of different sauces or flavours.  The KISS principle needs to be applied.

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Guyver
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It is like a food that lends itself to all sorts of different sauces or flavours.  The KISS principle needs to be applied.

Yeah....I mean for me it doesn’t work anymore.  There are many reasons for this....but that’s not what this thread is about.  But I will say that Bible contradictions definitely played a big part in my decision to leave Christianity.  Now, I just walk the path God has given me....and I don’t have any need for religion.  I do believe in having faith in God, but I think that’s an individuals own personal journey and expression.

I don’t fear angry God throw me in the lake of fire, or devil gonna get me....I don’t believe those things exist.

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Crikey
14 hours ago, Essan said:

Were it not for "original sin" we would have no understanding of what good (or evil) was ....    

As a matter of interest what does "original sin" mean exactly? Is there a non-original sin?

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Crikey
11 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

looks like Space 1999

Nice try but no, it's Blakes Seven..:P

 

Edited by Crikey

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Crikey
10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Yep.

After sleeping in their graves  til the resurrection day, the bible says the dead will be resurrected on two separate days Those not saved will die the second death of body and soul Those who are saved gain eternal life.  

So, if the y come out of the graves, the y are not in heaven or hell, and they don't go  to either place when they die  From memory  the saved are placed on the new earth which, like eden, has no death, no pain, no suffering .  

From memory some of those saved are in heaven for a period, checking the books of judgement, and verifying god's decisions on those who had died.  But none stay there permanently.

Again, none of this is my belief but it is what the bible says, and those who follow the bible should understand it.

You say "from memory" twice there mate, so I think you'd better post the actual bible quotes (if there are any) instead of relying on your memory which looks to me as if it might be playing tricks on you..;)

 

Edited by Crikey

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Desertrat56
14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Like i said it is not something I believe, but I do feel that people who follow the bible should at least understand it. 

but no, not "zombies"

 The context of the narrative indicates the writers were talking about  real physical people who had died but were now   restored to full life, in body and mind.

(Arguably a  new body, or their old one restored) 

A modern person would consider this idea impossible, and thus assume that the writers did not mean literally.

However at the time, the writers and readers believed such things were possible and literal,  given the power of god  

I'm not saying it would be impossible, nothing is impossible, just impractical.   And it is one of the big contradictions as those who believe that are also insistent that the body is temporary and unnecessary when we get to "heaven".  Getting the same body back, restored or not, is ridiculouos.  Those who have been dead for thousands of years have probably moved on and couldn't care less about that body if the scenario plays out it will be quite a shock and maybe even an insult to be put back in that body.  The whole thing wreaks of someone making something up to keep people happy.  Oh, you will die a horrible death because that is "god's plan" but later he will bring you back just as you are now so he can judge you.  Not even reasonable or rational, proof to me that even though the original writings of the bible were real historical accounts, they have been changed and manipulated to enslave as many as are willing to a complete nonsense.  And what is the richest entity on the planet?  The church that put that book together.  And the 7th richest is the Mormon church.  Think about that, selling god is what they are doing.

Edited by Desertrat56

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Desertrat56
6 hours ago, Crikey said:

Nice try but no, it's Blakes Seven..:P

 

Oh, I never heard of that one. 

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Crikey said:

You say "from memory" twice there mate, so I think you'd better post the actual bible quotes (if there are any) instead of relying on your memory which looks to me as if it might be playing tricks on you..;)

 

Nup I say from memory precisely do i do not have to go look it up, and to explain that i t is not researched; but the pov is valid and biblically based I spent a decade studying the bible every week from abput 1972 to 1982  with difernt groups  and its pretty well part of my general knowledge  

Oh damn i am just too nice a guy.

A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

 

Revelation 20:11-15 ESV

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 However, as with all things biblical it is a matter of both reading and comparing many quotes on such a point and also understanding context and chronological order There are many opinions about the last days/ judgments etc ALL one can do is read and study the bible carefully and come to an understanding based on what is in the bible not on the theology of any church. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Crikey said:

Nice try but no, it's Blakes Seven..:P

 

Brilliant series. Worst ending ever. 

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Mr Walker
9 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I'm not saying it would be impossible, nothing is impossible, just impractical.   And it is one of the big contradictions as those who believe that are also insistent that the body is temporary and unnecessary when we get to "heaven".  Getting the same body back, restored or not, is ridiculouos.  Those who have been dead for thousands of years have probably moved on and couldn't care less about that body if the scenario plays out it will be quite a shock and maybe even an insult to be put back in that body.  The whole thing wreaks of someone making something up to keep people happy.  Oh, you will die a horrible death because that is "god's plan" but later he will bring you back just as you are now so he can judge you.  Not even reasonable or rational, proof to me that even though the original writings of the bible were real historical accounts, they have been changed and manipulated to enslave as many as are willing to a complete nonsense.  And what is the richest entity on the planet?  The church that put that book together.  And the 7th richest is the Mormon church.  Think about that, selling god is what they are doing.

Actually No most serious biblical scholars and theologians do believe we will get the same body back but with several differences  (based on biblical texts) 

Eg it will be immortal incorruptible etc It will have abilities like being able to pass through solid matter  BUT you will recognise yourself in a mirror and others will recognise you. You will have a more equal balance of material and spiritual beiing  

https://www.faithgateway.com/after-we-die-resurrected-bodies/#.Xj4GUjIzaUk

http://blog.adw.org/2016/04/our-resurrected-bodies/

AgaiN none of this is my belief. It is just deconstructing the bible accurately 

Ps  In biblical terms, when you awaken it will be as if only an instant has passed since you died

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” (1 Cor 15:35-55 selectae)

Faith and belief are nothing to do with religion. However some people find comfort in religions Others need only an inner faith and a personal relationship with"god"

I do agree that your faith should empower and liberate you from  all things, and never enslave you, and that some churches have corrupted the messages of "god" .  

 

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Crikey
10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Blakes Seven...Brilliant series. Worst ending ever. 

SPOILER ALERT- Athough they were all apparently killed in a Federation shootout in the final scene, the Feds might have only been using non-lethal "stun setting" fire.That would have allowed another series to be made beginning with them waking up in jail and then busting out..There was a campaign by fans asking for another series but it never happened.

PS- I've got the boxed set of Blakes Seven for posterity..:D 

Edited by Crikey
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Crikey
10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.  I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.  ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

That verse is heaviliy laced with metaphor and symbology and therefore open to various interpretations. For example the Jehovah's Witnesses think it means they'll be ruling over the rest of us poor schmucks on a new atoms-and-molecules material Earth where we all keep our squishy fleshy bodies.

Other verses however, indicate that the "new earth" will be a purely spiritual one where we become spiritual life-forms, and they're the verses I run with, e.g.-

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:42-50)

We could speculate that death is the final step in human evolution where we transcend from flesh into spirit, it's a theme taken up by sci-fi writers as in this ST "Transfigurations" episode-

ST-transfigurations.jpg

Edited by Crikey

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Piney
13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Actually No most serious biblical scholars and theologians do believe we will get the same body back but with several differences  (based on biblical texts) 

Could you list these scholars?

Because all the ones that I know, don't. 

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lightly
On February 7, 2020 at 1:46 AM, Crikey said:

As a matter of interest what does "original sin" mean exactly? Is there a non-original sin?

Wasn't the original sin  disobedience?    They ate from the one tree they were told Not to eat from?   'and on that day, thou shalt surely die'.  (or words to that effect?) .   .not that they dropped dead right then...they became flesh.  ??

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Mr Walker
11 hours ago, Piney said:

Could you list these scholars?

Because all the ones that I know, don't. 

I gave a couple of them in the sources provided

Often biblical interpretation  is theologically based  You will see some minor differences in opinion  between catholics and born again christians because of this 

The most objective interpretation  comes from  the deconstruction of the bible itself not other people's beliefs about what the bible says

There are many biblical quotes which describe the body after resurrection and it is on these which most writers base their beliefs 

(remember i have no belief in this I just enjoy deconstructing the bible and learning what  others think about it 

Basically the consensus seems to be that our resurrected body will be like christ's  ie material, but more than just material.

it will reflect our new spiritual nature and be less tied to the  physica.

Some people seem to interpret that sex will not be part of eternal life, but here are plenty of other bits in the bible which suggest we will be fully functioning humans  eg it says we will live on the new earth without pain or death (as in eden ) but in eden man and woman were meant to have sex and to breed 

Here is one catholic interpretation 

quote

 What we know of the characteristics of the resurrected human body, we know from the revelation of the acts of Jesus after his resurrection.

When His resurrected figure was observed by others in a temporal setting, it expressed the properties of an ordinary human body. These included (1) walking and conversing with others as on the road to Emmaus and at dinner with them in the inn (Luke 24:13-31), (2) eating with his disciples in their living quarters (Luke 24:41-43) and at a lakeside cookout (John 21:12-15), and (3) having flesh, not different from normal to the touch of another (Luke 24:39).

His body, as different from normal, was evident in one way. Although capable of a relationship of place to material, temporal entities, it was not a relationship of necessity. The relationship could occur (John 20:26) or cease (Luke 24:31) without transitioning respectively from or to another relationship of place. In contrast, the relationship of place of an ordinary human body with respect to other material entities is singular and necessary in the moment, and subject to continuous transition.

The resurrected body is immutable though capable of a relationship of place with mutable material things. The non-resurrected human body is mutable and has a unique and necessary, but continually transitioning relationship of place with other mutable material things.

https://www.catholicstand.com/resurrected-human-body-made/

.................................................

It is interesting that they introduce the piece with this comment 

.......................................

Currently, there are only two resurrected human bodies, those of Jesus and Mary. However, at the end of time, the bodies of all humans, who have died will be resurrected. 

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I assume this means that catholics believe tha t while we are in heaven or hell we do not have human bodies or perhaps this writer is actually following biblical writing that we sleep until resurrection 

quote

Often when referring to the resurrection, Christians will speak of receiving their "new" body. That way of speaking is not necessarily wrong if the meaning is that our current bodies will be renewed so that they are "as good as (or, better than) new." But we should not think of the resurrection as the reception of a new body in the sense that we are given a different body disconnected from the body we had on earth.

Instead, the Bible teaches that the resurrection is a transformation of the same bodies we had on earth. As humans, we are not just spiritual, but physical. Our bodies are a very important part of our identity--they are part of who we are. Therefore, if we deny that we are raised with the same bodies we had on earth, we are denying a significant part of our identity. At the same time, if we deny that our resurrected bodies are transformed, we are left with the depressing idea that we will forever be subject to the weaknesses we now have, such as sickness, fatigue, etc. As Piper has said: "The old body will become a new body. But it will still be your body. There will be continuity. God is able to do what we cannot imagine. The resurrection is not described in terms of a totally new creation but in terms of a change of the old creation" (Future Grace, 372).

We will have the same bodies
There are many Scriptural reasons for believing that we will be raised with the same body that died. First, Christ was raised in the same body He had before He died. We know this because the tomb was empty (Luke 24:1-6) and because His resurrected body retained scars from the crucifixion (John 20:25, 27). Since Christ's resurrection is the pattern that our resurrection will follow (Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Cor. 15:49), then we will also be raised with the same body.

Second, this is also evident from the very meaning of the term "resurrection of the dead" (1 Corinthians 15:13, etc.). The phrase means: that which is dead (namely, our body) is made alive. If the same body that died is not the body that was raised, Paul could not call it the "resurrection of the dead." It would not be a resurrection at all.

 

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/do-we-receive-the-same-body-we-had-on-earth-at-the-resurrection

 

 

2. Literal Bodies

The resurrection of believers will be just like that of Christ - both bodily and literal.
 

Then He [Jesus] said to Thomas, 'Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving but believing' (John 20:27).
 

On another occasion He said to His disciples.

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have (Luke 24:39).
 

Our Bodies Raised

As Christ's resurrection was literal and physical, so will be the resurrected bodies of believers.

 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_133.cfm

https://bible.org/seriespage/5-resurrection-body

 

First Corinthians 15:42 notes, "what is raised is imperishable." In other words, the glorified body of believers will be eternal and never decay. Verse 43 states the new body will be glorious: "It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory." Verse 43b adds, "It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power." The glorified body will be far more powerful than our comparably "weak" earthly body. Verse 44 includes that our new body will be spiritual: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." We will not merely be skin and bones and blood and cells. The new body will have new abilities. Perhaps this will include some of the powers Jesus exhibited in His resurrected body, such as the ability to appear through a locked door (John 20:19) or the ability to rapidly appear in one location and then in another (as Jesus did in appearing on the road to Emmaus and then quickly being among the apostles that evening). Verse 49 includes that we will bear the image of the man of heaven (Jesus): "Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." Our new body will reflect His image.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/glorified-bodies.html

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Piney
29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I gave a couple of them in the sources provided

I don't see any scholars. Just apologists. 

 

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