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K9Buck

Biblical contradictions?

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Mr Walker
8 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

so why is it you still talk crap? maybe you should stop reading what others say.. like i do

lol My crap is entirely my own.

It is based first on knowldge gained by personal physical experiences, and second on justifiable beliefs based on the writings of others in science history etc.  Sometimes it is my own experiences which allow me to act the writings of others eg If i read the description of surfing on a long board or water skiing barefoot  and it matches my own I accept that  the writer knows what he/she is talking about

Sometimes the writings of others help me learn, and do, new things  

I learned how to make explosive devices, pyrotechnics and chemical/physical fuses etc entirely from  reading books  back in the sixties 

 

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Mr Walker
8 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I "quake" at the thought of it !

lol Literary deconstruction is a specific and quite involved skill. I began it a t high school and continued it in the study of literature a t university  I taught it a t preuniversity entrance standards for 40 years with good success. 

One university entrance task i most enjoyed was the deconstruction of "The Princess Bride "as an  example of a cult  piece of literature and film  It was my choice and it worked very well  with all my students getting good grades for their deconstruction of; characters, setting, dialogue, costumes, use of humour and stereotyping, linguistic conventions  etc 
Given that i had watched it over 20 times with classes, and that there was a lot online about it, it turned out to be an excellent choice 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Dejarma
9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I learned how to make explosive devices, pyrotechnics and chemical/physical fuses etc entirely from  reading books  back in the sixties 

yeah, that's called a tutorial (why you'd want to learn how to make explosive devices is another question)!? I read & take in tutorials all the time.. But I DO NOT need a tutorial on life & how to FEEL! Do you need others to tell you how to feel?
Or are your millions of words a week on bomb-making tutorials etc???

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

One university entrance task i most enjoyed was the deconstruction of "The Princess Bride "as an  example of a cult  piece of literature and film  It was my choice and it worked very well  with all my students getting good grades for their deconstruction of; characters, setting, dialogue, costumes, use of humour and stereotyping, linguistic conventions  etc 

Interesting ! Just last night I heard Indira Naidoo, who you are probably aware of, a TV newsreader and what-not, admit that she had watched the movie, wait for it, over 100 times ! I must find out more about it.

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Mr Walker
11 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

yeah, that's called a tutorial (why you'd want to learn how to make explosive devices is another question)!? I read & take in tutorials all the time.. But I DO NOT need a tutorial on life & how to FEEL! Do you need others to tell you how to feel?
Or are your millions of words a week on bomb-making tutorials etc???

To me a tutorial was actually a small group  discussion  meeting with a tutor But i will accept your point 

So indeed you DO read but restrict your reading to bits and pieces you feel will contribute to your practical knowldge Fair enough but incredibly boring :) IMHO 

I was about 14 and an avid reader  I didn't need any other excuse,

I also built functioning   longbows and arrows, crossbows, trebuchets catapults and  ballista,  along with shanghai and ninja stars  

The y all got used in "play" fighting,  along with slug/bb guns, man traps,  home made mortars etc 

No serious injuries. I got shot in the chest and had to extract the pellet myself   and i put an arrow through a friend's cheek (he was riding a bike about 30 yards away, moving quite  fast  and ive always felt it was an incredible piece of archery to calculate the trajectory and velocity required, in my head, so that the arrow would meet his body in the one piece of space and time) :) )  and had to extract it   But nothing serious, and nothing any parents needed to know about.   

 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
8 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Interesting ! Just last night I heard Indira Naidoo, who you are probably aware of, a TV newsreader and what-not, admit that she had watched the movie, wait for it, over 100 times ! I must find out more about it.

"inconceivable"

Look it up :) 

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

"inconceivable"

Look it up :) 

:huh: ?

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Piney
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

 i put an arrow through a friend's cheek (he was riding a bike about 30 yards away, moving quite  fast  and ive always felt it was an incredible piece of archery to calculate the trajectory and velocity required, in my head, so that the arrow would meet his body in the one piece of space and time) :) )  and had to extract it   But nothing serious, and nothing any parents needed to know about.   

You would have needed at least a 45lb bow and it would of penetrated the other side. 

and you don't "calculate velocity" You shoot through a cronograph to measure speed. 

 

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Kenemet
On 2/4/2020 at 2:46 AM, K9Buck said:

I am a Christian that is confused by some of the seeming contradictions that appear throughout the bible.  By the way, my hope is that this can be a rather scholarly discussion and NOT a thread for bashing believers and the bible.  Thank you in advance for your consideration.  

 

Example 1:

John 11:26 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
 

Your confusion (understandably) arises from a couple of misconceptions:

1. The Bible was sort of thunked down, all complete, at some point in time from a magical editor and hasn't changed since then.

2.  The Bible was created by people who had the exact same shared faith

3. That there exists a single version of each of the Biblical books

4. That the best way to study it is to meditate on verses.

5.  That what's in the Bible today reflects the beliefs and practices of the ones who wrote the books.

None of those are true.

1. The Bible is the result of a lot of infighting (and executions) among the high ranking Catholic clergy of 350 AD.  It's their selection of books that they thought a Jewish rabbi (Jesus) would have memorized plus writings that they liked about Jesus and some manuscripts they felt were valuable or prophetic.  Revelation almost didn't make the cut (many didn't like it.)  They selected each book from among many manuscripts and we can't be sure that when they compiled it that it wasn't further edited (the original manuscripts vary, as you can see if you get heavily into the books and how they were composed.)  And as to the not changing -- see the article on the canonical development of the Bible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon

2. The Bible is a collection of books by people of many faiths - Jews and several varieties of Christians.  You may note that Paul and the Apostles actually keep Jewish tradition and rituals (sacrificing doves, for instance.)  And the Protestant version of the Bible is different (fewer books) than the Catholic version of the Bible.  Also, the "Ten Commandments" (neither venerated nor made much of by the Jews) are slightly different between Catholic and Protestant Bibles. 

3.  The manuscripts for each book often vary wildly.  And the original Bible didn't have numbered verses or chapters.  The books were just One Long Book within the Bible.

4. Reading it piecemeal allows preachers to control your view.  Almost NOBODY reads Leviticus (I've read it.  I loved the weird offerings like the heave offering).  Very few have read Judges where Jepithah sacrifices his daughter (in a ripoff of the Greek legend of Idomeneus https://www.greeklegendsandmyths.com/idomeneus.html) because of a promise he made to God.

5.  Neither the Bishops who put together the Bible nor the authors of the manuscripts would recognize today's Christianity as being the same as their beliefs.

Wikipedia has good articles on each of the books of the Bible, with the history of the manuscripts (which you can look up)   

Edited by Kenemet
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Crikey

Let's never forget that although the Old T is interesting,  God gave us the New T (the clue is in the name) through Jesus, so obviously if God wanted us to stick with the OT, he wouldn't have sent Jesus to give us the New..:D

Jesus said - "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak" (John 12:49)

And people soon cottoned on-

"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Hebrews 8:6)

"Through Jesus we are saved, and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)

"The veil covers the old covenant, but is removed by Jesus" (2 Cor 3:12)

In modern terms, the Old T is the Win 8 operating system, but the New T is Win 10..:D

Oh and let's not forget Jesus told us to click on him and on nobody else- "You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)

 

 

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GlitterRose

The easiest solution is that people of all different opinions were involved in writing the bible, and hence the contradictions.

I have heard someone also make the argument that God is all of those things at once. So God is judgment as well as forgiveness, etc.

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Kenemet
3 hours ago, Crikey said:

Let's never forget that although the Old T is interesting,  God gave us the New T (the clue is in the name) through Jesus, so obviously if God wanted us to stick with the OT, he wouldn't have sent Jesus to give us the New..:D

Jesus said - "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak" (John 12:49)

And people soon cottoned on-

"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Hebrews 8:6)

"Through Jesus we are saved, and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)

"The veil covers the old covenant, but is removed by Jesus" (2 Cor 3:12)

In modern terms, the Old T is the Win 8 operating system, but the New T is Win 10..:D

Oh and let's not forget Jesus told us to click on him and on nobody else- "You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)

The Council of Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Rome) gave us the New Testament, selecting the manuscripts from thousands of books and picking THE variation of each book/letter that they liked best.  It took around 200 years for the entire church to accept the initial list of books... and this was overturned by editing with the Protestant Bible and so on and so forth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon#Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon)

The Apostles, by the way, clearly operated as Jews (feast days and sacrifices are mentioned.)

 

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Crikey
21 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

The Apostles, by the way, clearly operated as Jews (feast days and sacrifices are mentioned.)

Yes, Jesus said- "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matt 5:17)

His main beef was the way the snooty priests were rigidly enforcing the harsher bits of the Old T, whereas he set an example of how we should toss a bit of human compassion into the mix, and people said "Hey this guy rocks!"-

"The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)

For example a mob wanted to stone this naughty girl under the Old Laws, but he stepped in and overruled them-

JesusAdultrss.jpg

 

Edited by Crikey
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Guyver
21 hours ago, Dejarma said:

I'm talking logic/ rational thinking here= "interpretation" (great word that in a place like this)

life is great.. For me life is simple= it's either real or it's not.. I feel no need to interpret anything.

The fact that some feel a need to interpret what they're told (in a story) makes me worry about us humans in the future

1.  Great point in general.

2.  Mr. Walkers point about biblical interpretation is largely irrelevant in this thread.  It doesn’t matter what bible writers believed as they wrote the Bible....what matters is the words they wrote.  It is the words that they wrote that are contradictory or not.  If the Bible is the word of God as it claims to be.....then it should not be contradictory.  If it’s contradictory then it’s a good indication that it is not the word of God because it is impossible that there be a God who made this universe and didn’t know what he was doing.

The contradictions themselves indicate that there is a problem with the claim.

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Mr Walker
20 hours ago, Piney said:

You would have needed at least a 45lb bow and it would of penetrated the other side. 

and you don't "calculate velocity" You shoot through a cronograph to measure speed. 

 

lol It was a home made bow and arrow.

It was in the early 60s .

We certainly couldn't afford a bought bow and i dont think chronographs even existed 

A piece of dowelling for the arrow, with a pen nib for the point, and feathers for fletching

. I cut and shaped the bow myself . Can't remember what i used for the bow string  but  it could have been fishing line.

 

I calculated velocity, (which involves both speed and direction)  trajectory, and point of intersection in my head,  as i aimed (it is not really that hard.  People do it all the time when catching a ball ) But still it was a bit flukey

I watched in horror as arrow and target came together and the arrow pierced his cheek.

He rode around to me with the arrow bobbing up and down out of his face and asked me "why did you do that ?" My response was the classic, "I didn't  actually think i could hit you"   

Then we had to work out how to explain the puncture wound to his mum and settled on a story of how he had come of his bike and landed in a rose bush 

Luckily the arrow pulled out easily and left only a small wound, which i dressed with a band aid from  our first aid kit.

I dont know technical requirements which would have made this possible. i just know it happened as described .

I was going to  use the bow for hunting rabbits,  but as we already had traps and a 22 rifle,  it seemed  inadequate.  It proved quite useful in our "gang wars "  however, .where non lethal weapons were the preferred choice :)   

Edited by Mr Walker

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Will do
47 minutes ago, Guyver said:

1.  Great point in general.

2.  Mr. Walkers point about biblical interpretation is largely irrelevant in this thread.  It doesn’t matter what bible writers believed as they wrote the Bible....what matters is the words they wrote.  It is the words that they wrote that are contradictory or not.  If the Bible is the word of God as it claims to be.....then it should not be contradictory.  If it’s contradictory then it’s a good indication that it is not the word of God because it is impossible that there be a God who made this universe and didn’t know what he was doing.

The contradictions themselves indicate that there is a problem with the claim.

 

If there was a book, like the Bible, claiming that its words were written by authority to reveal things about God, about Jesus, about religion in general and within its hunderds of pages and thousands of words, it's proven, say with computer search engines, that it NEVER contradicts itself, not ever, not even once on any of its diverse topics, not once; would you read it? 

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Piney
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

It proved quite useful in our "gang wars "  however, .where non lethal weapons were the preferred choice :)   

We used BB guns and dirt bombs, with metal waste bin lids for shields. :yes:

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

1.  Great point in general.

2.  Mr. Walkers point about biblical interpretation is largely irrelevant in this thread.  It doesn’t matter what bible writers believed as they wrote the Bible....what matters is the words they wrote.  It is the words that they wrote that are contradictory or not.  If the Bible is the word of God as it claims to be.....then it should not be contradictory.  If it’s contradictory then it’s a good indication that it is not the word of God because it is impossible that there be a God who made this universe and didn’t know what he was doing.

The contradictions themselves indicate that there is a problem with the claim.

I disagree vehemently  :) 
when deconstructing ANY text it is not what YOU think is meant, but what the writer's intent and beliefs are, that is critical in deciphering the text 

The bible COULD be the word of god as revealed to, and understood by, a variety of difernt writers who thus wrote conflicting interpretations

Eg I have described my personal experiences with a similar entity and my interpretation is very different to others with similar experiences in the past  

Or it could be individual visions, experiences, and even imagination, driving the writers. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
1 minute ago, Piney said:

We used BB guns and dirt bombs, with metal waste bin lids for shields. :yes:

Yep And those lids were excellent shields for jousting  on the town oval, on push bikes, with broom handles for lances. Of course you had to be able to ride and steer the bike with "no hands"  to compete :) 

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Piney
Just now, Will Due said:

If there was a book, like the Bible, claiming that its words were written by authority to reveal things about God, about Jesus, about religion in general and within its hunderds of pages and thousands of words, it's proven, say with computer search engines algorithms, that it never contradicts itself, not ever, not even once on any of its diverse topics, not once; would you read it? 

Is what is used on ancient text. But your pushing that other thing. :yes:

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Guyver
18 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

If there was a book, like the Bible, claiming that its words were written by authority to reveal things about God, about Jesus, about religion in general and within its hunderds of pages and thousands of words, it's proven, say with computer search engines, that it NEVER contradicts itself, not ever, not even once on any of its diverse topics, not once; would you read it? 

 

 

Yes.  But, ironically, I would consider it the work of a sophisticated machine.  So, that does speak to my preconceived notions. FWIW.

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Will do
29 minutes ago, Piney said:

Is what is used on ancient text. But your pushing that other thing. :yes:

 

Perhaps but this thread is about the fact that within the text of the Bible, there are found many statements that contradict each other. As it's already been correctly pointed out in my opinion by Guyver that at the very least "if the Bible is the word of God as it claims to be.....then it should not be contradictory". So if God really is God, he would see to it that a book would become available to read, eventhough not everyone is going to like what's written in it, it will at least have ZERO contradicting statements in it. Not one. Proven by as you said with algorithms.

Let me try to paint the big picture here. You have the OT and regarding its depictions of God, it's kind of scary, to say the least. Then comes along the NT. It's much better, but by definition, it contradicts the OT. So like I said if God really is God, then a third thing would naturally have to happen. A book would appear in publication in modern times eventhough given its several controversies, it would be at least non-contradictive with any of its statements throughout and serve as a means of clarification of what had come before. If God really is God that is.

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Mr Walker
21 hours ago, Habitat said:

:huh: ?

One of the many famous quotes used by one of the villains in The Princess Bride 

quote

Since its release, Buttercup and Westley’s love story has cemented itself into pop culture, and has become known for its bounty of hilarious and memorable lines.

Any fan of the cult classic will find it impossible not to think immediately of Vizzini when the word “inconceivable” is uttered, or be reminded instantly of Westley when the phrase “as you wish” is said.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/best-quotes-from-the-princess-bride-list-2017-9?r=US&IR=T#/#1-a-book-1

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/154axj/what_did_inigo_montoya_think_the_word/

My brother in law is such a fan of the movie that he named his runabout (fishing and leisure craft) "Inconceivable" 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Will do
28 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Yes.  But, ironically, I would consider it the work of a sophisticated machine.  So, that does speak to my preconceived notions. FWIW.

 

But Guyv, in 1935 "sophisticated" machines like we have today that can write text automatically via algorithms did not exist. ;)

Anyways, I'm just trying to point to something that pretty much dissolves the dilemma that this thread is about.

 

 

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Guyver
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I disagree vehemently  :) 
when deconstructing ANY text it is not what YOU think is meant, but what the writer's intent and beliefs are, that is critical in deciphering the text 

The bible COULD be the word of god as revealed to, and understood by, a variety of difernt writers who thus wrote conflicting interpretations

Eg I have described my personal experiences with a similar entity and my interpretation is very different to others with similar experiences in the past  

Or it could be individual visions, experiences, and even imagination, driving the writers. 

Do you know why you’re wrong and don’t know it?

Its because of one of a few good things I got from Rush Limbaugh.  Words mean things.

Since words mean things, you are wrong.  It doesn’t matter what you think the words mean, it matters what the words mean that were written.

The readers decide the truth. FWIW.

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